Diplomacy II Module Packs

[The Capo]

MODULAR CIVS​

Diplomacy II is a mod that will offer modular civ packs from time to time. In general these packs will contain around seven civilizations, all with completely flavored unit sets, awesome LHs, and a very polished look. They will fit in seamlessly with the rest of the civs offered in Diplomacy.

This thread is to discuss upcoming Module packs, old Module packs, as well as discussions about what civs and leaders should make the cut.

 

[The Capo]

Reserved 1

 

[The Capo]

Reserved 2

 

[The Capo]

I guess I'll kick this off. Module Pack II, originally, had Australia, Congo, Iran, Songhai, Minoans, and Vietnam. Obviously Vietnam is in the mod now, so they will be replaced with the Hitties. I was also going to merge Songhai and Mali for the base mod, but there is a debate over that right now.

So the question is this; should Songhai maintain their status as a singular civ or should they be merged with the Mali?

The pros of merging is that many of the cities are the same, and the Mali would have four leaders (rather than two) in the base mod.

The cons of merging are that the Songhai and Mali were two distinct Empires, although they shared similar cultures, this was mostly by virtue of their shared geographic location. The Songhai won their Empire by conquering Mali.

 

[AbsintheRed]

My reasons to add Songhai:

The case of Songhai and Mali are very similar to Germany and Poland in my eyes.
So I would definitely have them both, they are still a totally different civ.
And of couse they would represent a totally different style. While Mali has commerce and financial based leaders and UB, Songhai should have agressive ones

We can easily come up with something to the problem of the citylists, and if they have 2-2 leaders thats not a problem for me at all

 

[The Almighty dF]

My reasons to add Songhai:

The case of Songhai and Mali are very similar to Germany and Poland in my eyes.
So I would definitely have them both, they are still a totally different civ.
And of couse they would represent a totally different style. While Mali has commerce and financial based leaders and UB, Songhai should have agressive ones

We can easily come up with something to the problem of the citylists, and if they have 2-2 leaders thats not a problem for me at all

Agreed entirely.
Mali is the more science-driven civ whereas Songhai is the military based conquerors.
...Also, admitedly, I find Songhai to be more interesting

I want to see Songhai as its own civ with Sonni Ali and Askia Muhammed (who of course leads the Songhai in Civ5.)

 

[Xyth]

The other option would be to merge them both as the Mande. Personally I prefer a merged option as I dislike civs that have massively overlapping city lists. While there were definite cultural differences between Mali and Songhai, I see them as similar to Achaemenid and Sassanid Persia, Akkadian and Chaldean Babylon, or Mykenaean and Classical Greek. Different leaders and centres rising to power but ultimately the same people in the same cities. In the end though, I'm happy either way.

One thing I will add though is to not make Askia aggressive. While the original dynasty of Songhai were indeed quite expansionistic, Askia is actually one of the most humane and philanthropic leaders in all of history. I was bitterly disappointed to hear he is going to be mischaracterized in Civ5.

 

[The Almighty dF]

The other option would be to merge them both as the Mande. Personally I prefer a merged option as I dislike civs that have massively overlapping city lists. While there were definite cultural differences between Mali and Songhai, I see them as similar to Achaemenid and Sassanid Persia, Akkadian and Chaldean Babylon, or Mykenaean and Classical Greek. Different leaders and centres rising to power but ultimately the same people in the same cities. In the end though, I'm happy either way.

One thing I will add though is to not make Askia aggressive. While the original dynasty of Songhai were indeed quite expansionistic, Askia is actually one of the most humane and philanthropic leaders in all of history. I was bitterly disappointed to hear he is going to be mischaracterized in Civ5.

Yeah, Firaxis... honestly sucks in that regard.
Honestly, if Capo wasn't against changing base stuff, I'd write up improved personalities for base game leaders.
It bugs me just how friendly Rameses is. He's such a nice man, such a push over.
And Lincoln... he can't even play the game. Lincoln and Sitting Bull have Forrest Gump AI.
I'm researching Military Science and they're just floating about a work boat saying "Thaats my boat. "

 

[The Capo]

The other option would be to merge them both as the Mande. Personally I prefer a merged option as I dislike civs that have massively overlapping city lists. While there were definite cultural differences between Mali and Songhai, I see them as similar to Achaemenid and Sassanid Persia, Akkadian and Chaldean Babylon, or Mykenaean and Classical Greek. Different leaders and centres rising to power but ultimately the same people in the same cities. In the end though, I'm happy either way.

One thing I will add though is to not make Askia aggressive. While the original dynasty of Songhai were indeed quite expansionistic, Askia is actually one of the most humane and philanthropic leaders in all of history. I was bitterly disappointed to hear he is going to be mischaracterized in Civ5.

I get your point but you have to also understand that, in that list, Askia is a Malinese leader, there are two other ones which are not aggressive at all. So keep in mind not all traits will be perfect because I'm trying to mix them up as much as I can get away with per civ. Not to mention just because the trait is called something, doesn't mean that the word is necessarily a good description of what that trait does (Charismatic is really a military trait, not a trait for great orators or public figures). Having said that, perhaps the bonus to melee and gunpowder units is not warranted for Askia, but I gave him Aggressive to make him different from the other Mali leaders. Also we are not discussing his traits here, we are discussing where he should wind up and ultimately what will happen with the Songhai/Mali civs. So far it looks like the consensus is to keep the Mali and Songhai as two civilizations.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, Firaxis... honestly sucks in that regard.
Honestly, if Capo wasn't against changing base stuff, I'd write up improved personalities for base game leaders.
It bugs me just how friendly Rameses is. He's such a nice man, such a push over.
And Lincoln... he can't even play the game. Lincoln and Sitting Bull have Forrest Gump AI.
I'm researching Military Science and they're just floating about a work boat saying "Thaats my boat. "

I don't think he would be against changing some of the base personalities, with this many new LH personalities added it's not significant at all
So I absolutely second those changes too

 

[Xyth]

I get your point but you have to also understand that, in that list, Askia is a Malinese leader, there are two other ones which are not aggressive at all. So keep in mind not all traits will be perfect because I'm trying to mix them up as much as I can get away with per civ. Not to mention just because the trait is called something, doesn't mean that the word is necessarily a good description of what that trait does (Charismatic is really a military trait, not a trait for great orators or public figures). Having said that, perhaps the bonus to melee and gunpowder units is not warranted for Askia, but I gave him Aggressive to make him different from the other Mali leaders. Also we are not discussing his traits here, we are discussing where he should wind up and ultimately what will happen with the Songhai/Mali civs. So far it looks like the consensus is to keep the Mali and Songhai as two civilizations.

Yeah i wasn't talking so much about his traits as his personality/implementation in general. If Mali and Songhai are separate then you could make Askia humane and Sunni Ali a warmonger, so both aspects are represented. Thus, I'll also vote for two separate civs

 

[The Almighty dF]

Yeah i wasn't talking so much about his traits as his personality/implementation in general. If Mali and Songhai are separate then you could make Askia humane and Sunni Ali a warmonger, so both aspects are represented. Thus, I'll also vote for two separate civs

Agreed entirely on having Askia represent the more humane aspect of Songhai history whereas Sonni Ali represents Songhai's more... vicious side.
Honestly, I love any chance for a civ to have a leaders that represent each side of said civ. I guess that's why I've pushed for Egypt to get a huge warmonger (Amenhotep I rather than Amenhotep III.)

 

[The Capo]

I wouldn't be against changing some of the base personalities. I agree that Lincoln sucks as AI, which is pretty bad because he is, most likely, the greatest President the United States has had (and I'm a Democrat saying this, although I'd definitely say FDR is up there with him, easily a close second). Also, I agree on Ramesses being kinda wishy-washy, he could certainly use a buffering in the aggression department.

So if anyone wants to do personalities for base leaders feel free, but I need to know what you changed and why, and there is still not a guarantee I'll implement it.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I wouldn't be against changing some of the base personalities. I agree that Lincoln sucks as AI, which is pretty bad because he is, most likely, the greatest President the United States has had (and I'm a Democrat saying this, although I'd definitely say FDR is up there with him, easily a close second). Also, I agree on Ramesses being kinda wishy-washy, he could certainly use a buffering in the aggression department.

So if anyone wants to do personalities for base leaders feel free, but I need to know what you changed and why, and there is still not a guarantee I'll implement it.

I'll start work on that tonight. I can guarantee that the leaders, after my edits, will play more like the actual leaders did.

 

[The Capo]

Good, but make sure you post them (or about them) in the Leaderheads section. That is why I got the sub-forum after all.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. It seems like we are now gearing back towards the Songhai being a modular civ and the Mali having two leaders again. Which is fine by me, the Songhai were one of my favorite modular civs to play as in the old mod. And the Songhai will be in CivV so it is kinda cool in that regard too. Okay then. Module pack two will have the Songhai again, and the Hitties are replacing the Vietnamese. So the list for Module Pack II will be:

• Congo
• Iran
• Minoans
• Songhai
• Australians
• Hittites

Unless of course anyone has good reasons to combine the two?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I do not want to combine Songhai with the Hittites


EDIT: Besides JK, what leaders do you plan for the Hittites?
IIRC you don't really like Ekmek's Mursilis...

Also, I suppose Australia will have Menzies and Curtin, Iran Ahmadenijad and Khomeini? Or will you finish the new Abbas too?

 

[The Capo]

I do not want to combine Songhai with the Hittites

I suppose you could read it that way too. Sorry about that.

FOR THE RECORD: As interesting as it may be, the Hittites and Songhai will NOT be combined.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I suppose you could read it that way too. Sorry about that.

FOR THE RECORD: As interesting as it may be, the Hittites and Songhai will NOT be combined.

Awww. I want my seafaring West-African warlords.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sry for the bad joke
You may not seen, but I have edited my last post in the meantime...

 

[The Capo]

Australia will have Menzies and Curtin, yes.

I will finish Abbas and give Iran those three.

And I am not a big fan of Ekmek's Mursilis, so I will make a new LH for them. I hope he doesn't see that.