Diplomatic modifiers

[alchx]

Screenshot from version 3.0.4 and possibly modifiers have been changed.

I tried to play without emissaries, completing quests and gifting a lot of units, but I just got tired of spamming the AI with emissaries.

This negative modifier was obtained after sending several diplomats to disputed city-states. Japan is very well developed and there may be factors of technological and cultural competition. Japan is behind by 3-4 technologies and 1-2 tenets.
'They know you are competing with them, and they hate it!' -324

This is a very strong modifier that is very difficult to neutralize and in fact, it dooms you to an eternal confrontation. I think this is excessive. Persia has a modifier of about -157 for the same competition. Persia is behind by 8-9 technologies and perhaps 4 tenets. Persia has not yet accepted the ideology.

War against a common enemy gives only +100. You can get the 'you defended their land' modifier if you kill enemy units on the territory of this empire. But I don't remember that even +200 was received when protecting a vassal.

 

[Nightmare Dusk]

I personally have never seen that modifier get that high. What difficulty is this?
Also, this could be bias, but it seems the more you but heads with a bot, (beat them in building wonders, spy on them, take their land, fight them, etc.) The more this modifier increases. The game i played about a week ago not a single AI broke -150 in that modifier, but i was playing on King difficulty, if that matters

 

[alchx]

I personally have never seen that modifier get that high. What difficulty is this?

Deity

Also, this could be bias, but it seems the more you but heads with a bot, (beat them in building wonders, spy on them, take their land, fight them, etc.) The more this modifier increases. The game i played about a week ago not a single AI broke -150 in that modifier, but i was playing on King difficulty, if that matters

If the value of this modifier is influenced by other factors (construction of Wonders, placement of the Citadel, espionage, etc.), then these factors are taken into account twice - independently and as part of the formula.

I know for sure that we are competing for 3 CS.

two on left edge of our continent - both CSs are nearby, one is closer to me, the other is closer to Japan.
one on the other continent (just below Carchemish, which is in the screenshot).

Japan also charged CS, located at the bottom of this continent, for competition. But for this CS I completed a couple of quests, and my interest is in the neighboring CS.

It turns out that the 4 contested CSs worsened the opinion to -324.

About 50-70 turns ago there was competition for two other CS - one between us and I captured it. I lost interest in the other one (on the right edge of our continent. There are two CSs, but I never competed for the lower one and twice demanded tribute from it).

 

[Recursive]

int CvDiplomacyAI::GetVictoryDisputeLevelScore(PlayerTypes ePlayer) const
{
    int iOpinionWeight = 0;

    // Don't stack!
    if ((int)GetVictoryBlockLevel(ePlayer) > (int)GetVictoryDisputeLevel(ePlayer))
        return 0;

    switch (GetVictoryDisputeLevel(ePlayer))
    {
    case DISPUTE_LEVEL_FIERCE:
        iOpinionWeight += /*40*/ GD_INT_GET(OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_FIERCE);
        break;
    case DISPUTE_LEVEL_STRONG:
        iOpinionWeight += /*30*/ GD_INT_GET(OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_STRONG);
        break;
    case DISPUTE_LEVEL_WEAK:
        iOpinionWeight += /*20*/ GD_INT_GET(OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_WEAK);
        break;
    case DISPUTE_LEVEL_NONE:
        iOpinionWeight = /*0*/ GD_INT_GET(OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_NONE);
        break;
    }

    if (iOpinionWeight > 0)
    {
        iOpinionWeight += GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).GetCurrentEra() * /*4*/ GD_INT_GET(OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_PER_ERA);
        iOpinionWeight *= GetVictoryCompetitiveness();
        iOpinionWeight *= GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).isHuman() ? GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getHandicapInfo().getVictoryDisputePercent() : GC.getGame().getHandicapInfo().getVictoryDisputePercent();
        iOpinionWeight /= 250;
    }

    return iOpinionWeight;
}

VictoryDisputePercent on Deity: 150%

Victory Dispute is for competing for the same victory condition (in this case, Diplomatic Victory).

 

[azum4roll]

So AI hates the human winning more than an AI winning?

DISPUTE_LEVEL_FIERCE + Information Era + 12 Victory Competitiveness + Deity = -489 opinion. Ouch!

 

[Recursive]

So AI hates the human winning more than an AI winning?

DISPUTE_LEVEL_FIERCE + Information Era + 12 Victory Competitiveness + Deity = -489 opinion. Ouch!

Not unless you're in multiplayer and the average of human difficulty levels is lower than a specific human's difficulty level. That code simply uses the VictoryDisputePercent for a human player's difficulty level, whereas for AI players it uses the average of human difficulty levels. In single player, these values are (or should be) the same.

VictoryCompetitiveness is capped at 10 internally.

EDIT: Actually, I don't remember the source for game handicap being "average difficulty level", so I might be wrong on that. I do know they are the same in single player though.

 

[alchx]

It turns out that at turn 300 you can already be doomed to constant confrontation due to the opinion of -324, which can hardly be improved. But there are still 200 turns until the end of the timer. Only 60% of the game time has passed.

Even if I stop competing for CSs, there will still be competition for victory with tourism (860 for me, 760 for Japan, but it will improve), competition for technology (although I’m not sure that Japan hates for technological superiority), cultural superiority (Japan accepted Artistry ).

Although in another variation of the game, at turn 400+ we were friends, fighting the Zulus regularly.

 

[alchx]

I also remembered the complete passivity of the vassals in the late game. Version approximately 2.6.0. They weren't trying to win the game at all.

One game had 5 vassals after turn 300. The time when the vassals should begin to rebel and strive for some type of victory. I, of course, had the strongest army and navy, but at the same time it would be very difficult to fight against 5 and with good chances they could win freedom. There is not enough cooperation between vassals and intrigues against the master.

In another game there was 1 vassal Assyria. At some points in time it had a larger army or was technologically ahead. But made absolutely no attempts to free itself. As a result, I flew into space.

 

[azum4roll]

Well, how do vassals cooperate with each other? It's not like they can communicate with each other to rebel at the same time.

 

[alchx]

Vassals become friends because they have a positive modifier through the master, the master's ideology. I'm not sure if vassals open borders to each other automatically, but over time they will exchange embassies (when possible denunciations become obsolete) and they will open borders to each other. Thanks to friendship, they will be able to conclude scientific agreements that will further strengthen mutual sympathies.

Vassals in the game are obliged to strive for independence. Everyone plays to win. There is only one first place.

Two empires that declare friendship often create an attacking alliance. Why don't vassals do this against the master? It seems to me that in order to correctly assess the profitability of the war for independence, it is necessary to reduce the vassal’s positive opinion of the master or not take into account certain factors in the calculations. Losing the War of Independence will not worsen the position of the vassal (although cities may be lost in AI-AI wars) - the vassal will not cease to be a vassal and pay tribute.

It might be worth giving some additional units to vassals at the time of the uprising and every 5 turns. Something like partisans and people's militia. Add a separate combat bonus, similar to Anti-Warmonger. A strong difference in the policy trees or religion should strengthen the vassal - the difference in cultures and the rejection of the master’s culture should have an effect. The more rebel vassals, the greater the bonus they receive - the struggle of each individual inspires the struggle of the others. Becoming a master of the entire planet and maintaining power will be very difficult even with a huge army and navy. There will be constant uprisings from alliances of 2-3 vassals. This modifier should work not only against the master, but also against the vassals who remain loyal. If a loyal vassal suffers significant losses of troops, loses cities, tiles and caravans are plundered, workers are kidnapped, then there should be a chance of an uprising of this vassal, since the master is not able to protect him.

Give the rebel vassal an initial positive warscore of 20-0. A war of at least 15 turns. If at the time of the peace proposal the score is positive for the vassal, then he automatically receives freedom and a truce for 15 or 20 turns to restore the economy and army, gain allied city-states or conclude defensive pacts.

 

[alchx]

I have never seen a vassal revolt. Even if the vassal entered into treaties of friendship with very powerful empires that compete with me.

 

[Stalker0]

I have never seen a vassal revolt. Even if the vassal entered into treaties of friendship with very powerful empires that compete with me.

I have, not often but it does happen. Most of the time I see it is when I vassaled a civ "too soon". Aka you can raze a couple of cities from a civ and often get a vassal, but if you don't strike at their heart and really weaken them, there is a reasonable chance they will be strong enough for independence later on.

 

[Diomedes_]

Yeah I've noticed that positive diplomatic modifiers are both really rare and generally super weak. There are so many ways you can make the ai hate you, but there are very few ways to make them like you.

 

[azum4roll]

Vassals don't have victory competitiveness, so they hate people much less.

 

[alchx]

Vassals don't have victory competitiveness, so they hate people much less.

So having vassals in the game automatically reduces the difficulty of achieving victory because several competitors are removed from the competition?
After all, this simplifies the game and reduces interest.

If we get one vassal, then we will have a better chance of getting a second vassal. Two vassals will easily help us capture the 3rd. With 3 vassals we will dominate absolutely. Now not a single AI military alliance can fight against 4 empires if one of the opponents is human. In addition, 3 vassals will give free units every era.

In Stellaris, as I remember, getting a vassal was, frankly, a pain. Vassals instantly lost all production bonuses and became a serious burden. They were good as buffer worlds, but required significant military assistance during wars. In addition, the vassal's military losses affected the victory points. And weak vassals had very small fleets, which were quickly destroyed. Weak production did not allow the vassals to create a good fleet. It was not uncommon for vassals to fall into a death spiral where, due to lack of resources, they were unable to construct buildings to obtain new resources and sold existing buildings to reduce costs, further reducing their income.

 

[azum4roll]

The alternative of getting vassals is simply erasing them from the game, which makes the game even easier as you're now in control of their cities with more advanced units.

 

[Anarcomu]

The 20% tax (science and culture) that vassals must pay, plus the fact that they probably lost 2-3 cities in the war, means that most of the time, they are quit weak, and don't contribute that much to war effort.

 

[Alpharius]

Spoiler :

I just got the same thing with Polynesia... because of 2 city-states I somehow fulfilled quests for (I wasn't even paying attention to given quests). We had a DoF a turn earlier, -240 seems a bit much over 2 CS influence. I am playing with random personalities on, though. Not sure if that affects anything.

 

[Enginseer]

The 20% tax (science and culture) that vassals must pay, plus the fact that they probably lost 2-3 cities in the war, means that most of the time, they are quit weak, and don't contribute that much to war effort.

Vassals do not pay this tax on science and culture. This "yield" appears freely out of nowhere.