Do religion-specialist civs become less useful at higher difficulties?

[Athenaeum]

Sorry, the stupid thing glitched. The title is meant to say,

"Do religion-specialist civs become less useful at higher difficulties?"

The reason I'm asking is because religion is very hard to found on higher difficulties, which pretty much makes their UA, UB or whatever, a waste.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Eh, it kind of depends what you want out of your religion. In that India TGS, I spammed missionaries and managed to convert a good part of the map. Tithe was bringing in the bucks, I passed World Religion without issues and everything was cool.

All of that was made possible by a really wide buffer zone (a civ with no religion, whom I passively pressured and it snowballed).

Another instance of a really good religion was the Arabia DCL, in which I met a pair of religion CS early, scored DF and snowballed heavily all the way, you can see a screenshot.

Other times, I either adopted a random religion or got my ass converted by an infinite tidal wave of prophets.

So, the key is getting a religion and spreading it early, if your religion is the last one to be founded, there's a big chance it won't really make an impact and you'd be better off adopting a different religion just for the diplomatic relations

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

It also depends on how the civ specializes in Religion. Byzantium is definitely worse off if they cannot found a religion, but civs like Maya and Ethiopa still work fairly well even if they don't end up dominating with their religion.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Thread title changed per OP request.

 

[tat501]

Isnt the whole point of Ethiopia for example to spam religion and then use that to win a cultural victory because of the 1) shared religion bonus to influence and 2) the world congress global religion which increases tourism?

I would have thought that if you lead in faith you can lead in religion - no matter how late in the game. Plus all that faith gives you the ability to buy great artists/musicians later on which is key for a CV. The extra time spent getting to later eras is just more time for you to spread your religion as far and wide as you can. So I don't think they get noticeably weaker tbh.

 

[Redaxe]

Religion really wears thin after a while.
It's basically just tithe gold and maybe some extra happiness, culture and production. It doesn't fit in with victory conditions all that well.

Highe difficulties its generally too hard to outcompete the AI religion. I guarantee that if you play Byzantium the civ right next to you will found a religion and build Borobudor the very next turn.

If you found late you might it best to pick Messiah and aquire 2 Prophets and convert 8 cities at once. Usually as the game progresses the AI loses interest in religion.

 

[consentient]

I would argue that religion is largely pointless on Deity. On Immortal most religion civs can still function OK. The early second city on Deity and the construction speed for Shrines, and the tendency for AI to go Piety these days, means that in most games all religions are gone too early.

 

[sunbeam]

Can someone shed a bit of light on something for me?

If you conquer the Holy City of a faith, can you use that faith as if you were the one that founded that religion, assuming you spread it to all your cities? Pantheon, founder, and enhanced beliefs?

It seems like it works that way, but there really isn't a way for the Byzantines to use their unique ability with religions they don't found. Meaning I guess that if Attila conquers the holy city of Islam he can do as much with that as the civ that founded it.

Whereas Byzantium would be in exactly the same spot as Attila if they did not found Islam, but conquered the holy city.

Or maybe the holy city doesn't matter. I'm not really a manual reader much, but some parts of the game like religion and tourism aren't as easy to intuitively grasp as combat and science.

 

[Browd]

Only the founder of a religion benefits from the founder belief and most enhancer beliefs. Capturing another civ's holy city has no impact. You might find the religion series in the War Academy useful for other questions: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=481906

 

[lindsay40k]

I guarantee that if you play Byzantium the civ right next to you will found a religion and build Borobudor the very next turn.

You know, I'm increasingly convinced that Byzantium's high level game consists of building a veteran army (farming CS XP) and conquering the first neighbour to build a religious wonder or start a religion from a pantheon that turns their start area into a faith farm.

If they spread a religion to you, that's an opportunity for Pantheon faith or, if you steal Stonehenge, a religious building.

 

[wayneb64]

I have been playing on Immortal for a while now, and I think I only failed to get a religion once. I am usually third or forth, but with the early spam of the first two I have managed to capitalize on it a few times and get quite a number of their religious buildings in my cities. On Immortal every little boost you can get matters so religion is important and having religious benefits makes your life that much easier.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you have a lucky start like Celts with 4x adjacent forest it has utility on any level, otherwise you're just using faith to buy good structures (if the AI picks a good religion near you) and especially for later-game purchase of great people (mostly scientists, maybe an engineer or two if you have a really good wonder you want fast or to rush parts). Faith is always pretty useful but founding a religion is more situational basically. Below immortal/deity it seems founding is a lot more probable though and might be worth your while then.

Obviously map plays a role too. If you create lots of open space with a wide-oriented civ you're a lot more interested in religion than a tall science game, especially because faith doesn't scale up on the same limitations as science/happiness/gold. More cities = more faith in a much more linear fashion, so having pagodas/happy temples and stuff like tithes can go nuts if you engineer a map with a lot of room.

 

[beetle]

Capturing another civ's holy city has no impact.

The only perk, assuming you did not found, is being able to build the Grand Temple. So extra fpt, but nothing else.

Religion really wears thin after a while. It's basically just tithe gold and maybe some extra happiness, culture and production. It doesn't fit in with victory conditions all that well.

I agree that on Deity the religious sub-game is pretty thin. Yes, it is basically just tithe gold and maybe some extra happiness, culture, and production. It fits in quite well with every victory condition for every game. On rare occasion, things come together, and it can be strong play pursue a reformation belief.

You can get a good pantheon belief almost every game. The opportunity cost, which is not insignificant, is an early shrine in the cap. The payback is good even without founding. When I pick a faith-oriented pantheon, I think I have a better than 50/50 chance of founding. The next couple of GPr are inexpensive, so then typically I enhance and then convert my core cities. Founding has no net cost (since the Grand Temple alone pays back your initial faith investment), so, at the very least, just brings a little more interest to the game.

You know, I'm increasingly convinced that Byzantium's high level game consists of building a veteran army (farming CS XP) and conquering the first neighbour to build a religious wonder or start a religion from a pantheon that turns their start area into a faith farm. If they spread a religion to you, that's an opportunity for Pantheon faith or, if you steal Stonehenge, a religious building.

I am a struggling Deity player, and I have very poor luck getting any of the four major religious Wonders. OTOH if you kill two AI early -- before either of them found -- then founding is pretty easy! With the two early UU, that strategy works pretty well for Byzantium!

 

[phillipwyllie]

@OP: It depends on whether the civ in question is in the hands of the AI or a human player.
I'd say it would be a determent to the AI as it stays in the Renaissance as long as it can so it can spam missionaries, and cities.
In the hands of a fairly competent human player then would most certainly assist in a SV or CV.

 

[reddishrecue]

They do like all the other civilizations that have been tried and specialized in other areas.

 

[sunbeam]

Geez I'm home today and just played a game with Byzantium. Really didn't have any faith producing pantheons that fit, so I had Sun God because I had a lot of wheat.

Finally managed to get a religion, and exactly when a prophet spawned I was hit with a great prophet. I never even got the chance to get to Theology and get an inquisitor.

I don't get what you guys are talking about. I can't totally surround my city with units, because I don't have enough to do what I need them to. If I build units out the yin yang, I hit the production penalty for having too many units.

Do you guys have unlimited faith or something to do all this crap with? Park inquisitors here and there?

My religion is totally gone, and Byzantium's unique ability is totally useless. I realize this game is around 5 years old and I am late to the party, but this is kind of stupid. There ought to be an option to tell an opposing civ that a prophet or missionary entering your territory is an act of war just like a combat unit.

 

[Redaxe]

Geez I'm home today and just played a game with Byzantium. Really didn't have any faith producing pantheons that fit, so I had Sun God because I had a lot of wheat.

Finally managed to get a religion, and exactly when a prophet spawned I was hit with a great prophet. I never even got the chance to get to Theology and get an inquisitor.

I don't get what you guys are talking about. I can't totally surround my city with units, because I don't have enough to do what I need them to. If I build units out the yin yang, I hit the production penalty for having too many units.

Do you guys have unlimited faith or something to do all this crap with? Park inquisitors here and there?

My religion is totally gone, and Byzantium's unique ability is totally useless. I realize this game is around 5 years old and I am late to the party, but this is kind of stupid. There ought to be an option to tell an opposing civ that a prophet or missionary entering your territory is an act of war just like a combat unit.

You need to be more aware of your borders and who is passing through but yes that is bad luck. I'd say an AI had that Prophet beelining to your city to convert it but you just happened to found right before they got there. Usually an AI won't convert your city unless they don't like you - which might be the case here.

If a Prophet approaches and you don't have an inquisitor you can either try and block them or declare war and capture their prophet. If you are lucky and the GP hasn't converted anyone you can plant him for a Holy Site. If you are playing a religious game you should always bear in mind you may need to declare war on another religious civ (if just to kill their missionaries and prophets) so don't make friendships with them.

 

[Redaxe]

I am a struggling Deity player, and I have very poor luck getting any of the four major religious Wonders. OTOH if you kill two AI early -- before either of them found -- then founding is pretty easy! With the two early UU, that strategy works pretty well for Byzantium!

Eh I don't know. To be honest this sounds a lot easier than it looks. Byzantiums problem go beyond it's lacklustre Cataphract and UA it's also that there is no synergy between any of the uniques.
Cataphracts are just not that great and by the time you get them Im going to presume the AI already has Pikemen. So you probably need to do a catapult and Composite bowmen rush but that takes you away from Theology.

Dromon rush may work in some circumstances I guess but very situational.

you might be able to kill 2 civs early but chances are that delays you enough with getting National College that a civ on the other end of the map will become a runaway. Most say that early war is unviable and Byzantium is one of the weaker civs. Other early domination civs like Assyria or Songhai will at least reward you for conquering.

 

[reddishrecue]

I wouldn't consider civilizations faith special but religion special instead. Some civilizations make more faith than others. That would be a different category though, where there's faith based civilizationsand then there are rreligion based civilizations. The only trouble with religion based civilizations is that you need faith or some kind of great prophet somehow to make a religion and get the religion uniqueness to use not only for that civilization but for any other civilization that's convertable.

 

[beetle]

Finally managed to get a religion, and exactly when a prophet spawned I was hit with a great prophet.

If you have a GPr, and there is a religion left, you should have been able to found. It does not matter that your cap is following a foreign religion. Likewise, you should be able to enhance even if you loose control of your holy city (I think that is case). If not, use your GPr to convert your cap and 3 expos. You should be fine.

I can't totally surround my city with units, because I don't have enough to do what I need them to. If I build units out the yin yang, I hit the production penalty for having too many units.

We are talking about half a dozen units, max, and they can be a mix of civilian and military. This is not enough to bump you up against the unit cap.

Do you guys have unlimited faith or something to do all this crap with? Park inquisitors here and there?

Most games I do not need inquisitors. I have never needed more than one.

Eh I don't know. To be honest this sounds a lot easier than it looks.

I agree that killing a civ before they found is not easy. I just think that might be more straightforward than what lindsay40k was describing.

Byzantiums problem go beyond it's lacklustre Cataphract and UA it's also that there is no synergy between any of the uniques. Cataphracts are just not that great and by the time you get them Im going to presume the AI already has Pikemen. So you probably need to do a catapult and Composite bowmen rush but that takes you away from Theology. Dromon rush may work in some circumstances I guess but very situational.

Don’t get me wrong, Byzantium is bottom tier, but the UU do have some synergy. Since the Dromon can’t be used to capture cities, a stronger-than-average horseman is a decent complement. You should have some time with it before pikes show up.