Dumpster Fire Discussions
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Zardnaar
Deity
Some yes but it's a very grey area. A lot of liberals draw the line at trans in sports or jail for example.
They don't want to eliminate trans but it violates their sense of fairness (sport) or common sense (jail/prison).
There's no good answers in those two situations.
Zardnaar
Deity
Some sports gender doesn't matter.
My suspicion is that the latent assumption (here) is that it's always fine, and then subjected to scrutiny whenever there are specific biological reasons why some people are excluded from that sporting event already.
As we all know, there are some that want total exclusion based on the Y chromosome (or something else, they're not actually sure, since the entire heuristic is binary and shuts down with edge cases).
My suspicion is that we'll be using stricter biological criteria as time goes on and excluding based on that. I'd also recommend against people putting too much effort into professional sports, not advocacy effort but personal effort. We need more trans millionaires, which means more dentists and lawyers. Not people losing money competing for something that doesn't pay for the majority of participants.
Eh, boxing isn't really much of a sport
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Im just a member of the group who you are talking about in this conversation, but do go off
Cloud_Strife
Deity
I don't like people who sell out their own community in the hopes of attaining fleeting acceptance by the straight, cis majority which is why i don't like you, you'll throw us all under the bus just to get respect from people diametrically opposed to your existence
Don't talk to me or mention my name again okay
João III
King
Or you'll do what?
I don't think there's any sport where simply "AFAB" has to be the black&white requirement, because if a trans woman starts medical transitioning pre-puberty they're going to have little to no discernable advantage over cis women, never mind that they're probably stealthed by that point anyway and forcing them off the team will be outing them. Here's what I've previously suggested:
"My overall (US-specific) compromise would be that up to and in high school it's simply social transitioning status and perhaps "letter from a medical professional stating individual's gender", NCAA can say X months of medically-supervised HRT (with blood test validation if in doubt), and the IOC and professional sports can have their T-ppm blood tests. High school and NCAA restrictions in some red states dependent upon getting rid of restrictions on gender-related medical assistance to minors ("here's my letter" "okay here's the arrest warrants for your parents and the medical professional that signed it"), but that one is a Gordian knot that desperately needs cutting."
"My overall (US-specific) compromise would be that up to and in high school it's simply social transitioning status and perhaps "letter from a medical professional stating individual's gender", NCAA can say X months of medically-supervised HRT (with blood test validation if in doubt), and the IOC and professional sports can have their T-ppm blood tests. High school and NCAA restrictions in some red states dependent upon getting rid of restrictions on gender-related medical assistance to minors ("here's my letter" "okay here's the arrest warrants for your parents and the medical professional that signed it"), but that one is a Gordian knot that desperately needs cutting."
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Many organizations already require trans women (and intersex and cis women of color!!) to undergo hormone replacement therapy
What business is it of yours?
What business is it of yours?
Honestly, the way I look at it, just because we are gay or trans doesn’t mean we have to reflexively look at the issue a certain way.
I don’t see the gay marriage comparison because it doesn’t really affect anyone else if two people of the same gender get married.
With trans issues it’s a lot more complicated because it’s upending the whole way people look at gender and a lot of established norms.
And that’s not exactly a bad thing but it does affect other people and it’s an adjustment.
So I’m not going to think, I’m part of the LGBT community so I must take this position because to do any less would be selling out our community.
And if you take this position that maybe we should be cautious about transwomen competing in women’s sports, what are you Pat Robertson or something? Or that JK Rowling is the new Anita Bryant.
I don’t see the gay marriage comparison because it doesn’t really affect anyone else if two people of the same gender get married.
With trans issues it’s a lot more complicated because it’s upending the whole way people look at gender and a lot of established norms.
And that’s not exactly a bad thing but it does affect other people and it’s an adjustment.
So I’m not going to think, I’m part of the LGBT community so I must take this position because to do any less would be selling out our community.
And if you take this position that maybe we should be cautious about transwomen competing in women’s sports, what are you Pat Robertson or something? Or that JK Rowling is the new Anita Bryant.
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
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Dude, I'm on the side of be who you are. Your continual hostility is counterproductive. Calls to absolutism alienate those you should be preaching to.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Trans women have beem competing for decades but now weirdo's like this think its contentious because they recognize they're next in the firing line.
Nor do i care for your hang ups irt gender, you're too dense to recognize that the same people who take issue me simply existing view yours as equally unnatural and a violation.
Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. The_J
We are never going to get on because my instinctive response isn't to throw an entire group under the bus
Nor do i care for your hang ups irt gender, you're too dense to recognize that the same people who take issue me simply existing view yours as equally unnatural and a violation.
Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. The_J
We are never going to get on because my instinctive response isn't to throw an entire group under the bus
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Im not a "dude", i live in a country where the next step isn't going to be to ban kids from being able to transition but to ban adults and you're telling me im being absolutist?
Liberals are the first to jettison us and that's what's happening here, maybe you haven't had to experience that but i have and you don't get to tell me how i should respond to the 100th time it happens again, whilst those on the receiving end watch another opportunity to recieve parity escape because fence sitters want to continue a conversation that will NEVER end
Who’s throwing people under the bus? We’re on a message board and you’re acting like I started up a fundraiser for republican lawmakers or something.
And how is it saying gay and trans people can’t exist because of contentious issues around sports?
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
- Joined
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- 8,898
Dude can be non-gendered, I'm not your enemy, stop trying to pick a fight.
I have no idea what relevance this has to our discussion. FWIW I've argued on your side for decades, marches all that jazz.
Please explain what this has to do with anything I've said.
You are the one who told me how to behave. Don't try to invert that.
What on earth have I said that would justify any of that?
The important thing is that this argument is unproductive. I want society to advance to equality and inclusion.
Oh, and FWIW the mother of one of the women at the heart of the whole JK Rowling thing (RIP both of them) was a family friend, and I fought your corner in a number of arguments. I lived in Brighton and my local pub was a trans pub - and most of civfanatics know how seriously I take my local pub. If you alienate a person who is on the 98th percentile to your side you alienate effectively everyone.
If you want to start up a new thread on, say, Gender and Sports, please go ahead.
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
- Joined
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If you want to start up a new thread on, say, Gender and Sports, please go ahead.
It would seem to be @IglooDame's gig. And a worthwhile one at that.
NAVY: Never Again Volunteer Yourself.
*sigh* Okay, give me a bit, I'll fire it up.
When you labelled Sommers' statement as incorrect (in our apparently shared view). The one you said I was only agreeing with because of some (unspecified) "cultural affect".
Did I read you wrong? Are trans women women in your view? If so, what is your problem with them competing in women's sports, specifically? Could you state it plainly and simply, instead of resorting to vague assertions about cultural affects? Ideally it'd also account for the various existing examples of cis athletes who have had either natural or chemical advantages and have faced no censure. And that's not even touching on financial advantages that will account for any athletes development and performance.
All that said, that's still a rather neat bit of cherrypicking (and the third time you've ignored the puberty blockers bit).
Being an ally isn't like having a credit card. You don't earn points.
I'm not doubting what you've done outside of CFC, but what you're doing here is tone policing a known trans poster and assigning some pretty weighty rhetoric to her. And then you got upset when you were criticised in kind.
You're right. The argument you were having was unproductive. But it'll likely continue to be until you recognise your part in it.
The conditional allyship thing is a bit rough as well. Try and work out why the marginalised poster that others have been winding up throughout might be in an uncharitable mood, instead of dangling your support above them until they meet some kind of behavioural criteria.
For example:
Can be, often isn't. And even if you mean it neutrally, it still has heavily-gendered etymology. I'd respect the preferences of the person you're talking to, personally. Instead of characterising them as looking for a fight.
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