Eastern Europe is NOT under-represented

[seasnake]

What are the borders of Eastern, central, southern, northern, western and all the five thousand Europes I'm hearing? If Germany isn't central, what is? If Russia isn't Eastern, come again? If GREECE isn't Eastern, is it south central?

I have the strong impression someone is gerrymandering Europe to create a need for Poland to represent a region.

 

[Legat]

That's the point. There is no convention about what eastern, western, central or whatever Europe is. Sure there might be official maps that show it this way or the other, but they might contradict each other, too.
I think it's a matter of opinion to some degree.

 

[seasnake]

Okay, let's look at a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Location-Europe-UNsubregions.png

This is supposed to be the United Nations designation of regions of Europe. As can be seen, it is based on modern country borders.
Based on this there are seven civilizations that controlled "Eastern European" land in their history: Celts, Russia, Germany, Byzantium, HRE, Mongols and Ottomans. I may be missing one.
Are these civs Eastern European? Only Russia. It is a true "representative."
Do the others represent Eastern Europe? That's the question: Is owning and controlling land enough to make a case for "representation?"

 

[Wodan]

Okay, let's look at a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Location-Europe-UNsubregions.png

This is supposed to be the United Nations designation of regions of Europe.

I'm not sure I agree with the UN's decisions there.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

That's the point. There is no convention about what eastern, western, central or whatever Europe is. Sure there might be official maps that show it this way or the other, but they might contradict each other, too.
I think it's a matter of opinion to some degree.

One rule of thumb is to start in the west, and go east.

"Central Europe" is where they use squiggly letters in the alphabet.

"Eastern" is where it gets beyond squiggly and the alphabet is totally fubar.

Wodan

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Of those, only Russia and Byzantium represent EE somewhat.

It's all about PR really. Most of the EE countries were dominated by Russia, Germany, Austria, the Ottomans in the last two centuries. Meanwhile, studying world history developed and EE was left out without advocates in the process.

Want a classic example? Creasy's The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World. Let's take the Battle of Tours. Any contemporary historian of modicum amount of skill and neutrality will tell you "the battle of Tours" was no more than a raid in force to plunder the rich monstery of St. Martin.

Now, let's take the third siege of Constantinople, which took place 14 years prior to the "battle of Tours". The land military forces engaged in this conflict were far greater than those at Tours, with the two greatest Mediterranian fleets on top of that. The siege was massively important, the greatest city of Greco-Roman and Christian civilization at the time was at stake. Bulgarian intervention on the side of the Byzantines was crucial for the victory of the Christians.

What most Western people know, however, is that the inconsequential engagement at Tours stopped the Muslims from overrunning Europe. That plays nicer to ego, doesn't it?

It's ok, really. All states have their myths of nationalistic pride. What's not ok is being in denial Western history is part glory myth. Eastern Europe is fully free for the first time in many centuries, and it's reckoning time for Western-centric and Russian-centric nationalistic myths.

 

[ComradeGeneral]

Are these civs Eastern European? Only Russia. It is a true "representative."
Do the others represent Eastern Europe? That's the question: Is owning and controlling land enough to make a case for "representation?"

Of course not. Unless they have conquered the region for several thousand years and fully assimilated it, they should not be a representative. They must have the unique culture, not just be land under control of a foreign power.

 

[Wodan]

Western history is part glory myth.

Remove the word "Western", and you'll have it right. The West (and USSR) don't have any monopoly on writing/reporting to suit themselves.

Your other point is very valid, though... nations in EE have their fate in their own hands, much more than in the past couple of hundred years. It'll be interesting to see what they do with themselves.

Wodan

 

[Saim]

I'm sure the original poster lost interest a long time ago

I didn't lose interest, I just stopped having the ability to go on this forums every single day

Eastern Europe is the least represented part of the most represented part of the world. I don't care if Poland is a great civ. Maybe it deserves to be included. But it should not be given special consideration because it is in an "under-represented" part of the world. It is in the most represented part of the world, Europe.
And sorry, but Europe is Europe. One European civ represents all of Europe. Just like Mali "represents" Africa. You can't have a civ like Mali represent Africa or a civ like China represent Asia, but the Netherlands only represents "Western Europe." Doesn't work that way.
Poland is part of Europe. Europe is extremely represented. That fact that it is in Eastern Europe does not entitle it to more consideration than any other civ in a future expansion pack. There is no need to add an Eastern European civ for balance, there are already enough European civs, if another makes it in it will be because it left historical legacy too important to be ignored. Nothing to do with representing Eastern Europe.

 

[Traitorfish]

Those cities influenced Islam alot but the religion was born in isreal.

You have that completely backasswards. Learn things.

 

[Legat]

One rule of thumb is to start in the west, and go east.

"Central Europe" is where they use squiggly letters in the alphabet.

"Eastern" is where it gets beyond squiggly and the alphabet is totally fubar.

Wodan

I'm sorry, but I don't understand exactly what you mean. But if you draw a line from Portugal to the Urals, halfway you will be near Warsaw which is located in Eastern Poland. So one could even argue that Poland is mainly in the western half of Europe...

it's reckoning time for Western-centric and Russian-centric nationalistic myths.

Yes, make way for the Poland-centric nationalistic myths.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yes, make way for the Poland-centric nationalistic myths.

Thanks for inviting me, i'll began later however.

 

[Bibor]

I have a slight feeling this thread isn't really about Eastern Europe being under-represented... It's about Poland not being in game. While this might get applause from Polish players, I assure you, Poland is just a country, not a world-shaping civilization. I'm not against Poland or polish people in any way, but please put your feet to the ground and be realistic.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I have a slight feeling this thread isn't really about Eastern Europe being under-represented... It's about Poland not being in game. While this might get applause from Polish players, I assure you, Poland is just a country, not a world-shaping civilization. I'm not against Poland or polish people in any way, but please put your feet to the ground and be realistic.

1. if you read the entire topic, (which i hope you didn't....) Then you'll see that this topic also has alot to do with Austria, Lithuania, Hungary and Bulgaria to. Poland is just mentioned alot (togather with Austria) because if there was 1 civ from the region, then Poland or Austria would likely be the chosen one.

2. and no there are other topics just about Poland out there. this is about eastern europe.

 

[Legat]

Poland is just mentioned alot (togather with Austria) because if there was 1 civ from the region, then Poland or Austria would likely be the chosen one.

Well, let's face it, if it wasn't for you and maybe three or four other Poles noone would really talk about Poland here.

 

[Wodan]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand exactly what you mean. But if you draw a line from Portugal to the Urals, halfway you will be near Warsaw which is located in Eastern Poland. So one could even argue that Poland is mainly in the western half of Europe...

It was a joke.

I've worked a lot with translations into almost all the European languages. Not being able to speak in any of them, things such as minor differences in alphabet really jump out at me.

There's a common latin alphabet in western europe, for the most part. (Spanish, especially modern Spanish, throws in a lot of accents, for example.) When you go to central europe, you get to the Belarusan alphabet, which throws in a lot of special characters. Go further east, and you get to cyrillic, which is even further afield from the latin alphabet. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It was a joke, as I said.

Wodan

 

[Angst]

Personally, I don't think Europe is big enough that we can say both Northern, Western, Southern and Eastern Europe. I only see Europe in East and West.

 

[Otto I]

Eastern Europe IS under represented. Why is not Poland in the game!!!!

 

[Bibor]

I feel an urge to repeat... Seasnake said it all.

Quote:
Eastern Europe is the least represented part of the most represented part of the world. I don't care if Poland is a great civ. Maybe it deserves to be included. But it should not be given special consideration because it is in an "under-represented" part of the world. It is in the most represented part of the world, Europe.
And sorry, but Europe is Europe. One European civ represents all of Europe. Just like Mali "represents" Africa. You can't have a civ like Mali represent Africa or a civ like China represent Asia, but the Netherlands only represents "Western Europe." Doesn't work that way.
Poland is part of Europe. Europe is extremely represented. That fact that it is in Eastern Europe does not entitle it to more consideration than any other civ in a future expansion pack. There is no need to add an Eastern European civ for balance, there are already enough European civs, if another makes it in it will be because it left historical legacy too important to be ignored. Nothing to do with representing Eastern Europe.

 

[civspain]

i think of poland as part of central europe, but even if it is part of central europe, then Central Europe has absalutely no representation!

and no i do not count germany as part of central europe.

holy roman empire