Emperor Lincoln of America

vranasm

Deity
Joined
Feb 2, 2002
Messages
6,437
Location
Czech Rep.
With SGOTM 14 being close and after some of informations about the map I thought it would be actually good idea to make some training scenario.

You maybe ask at first place, why even participate in such scenario?
Well I think everyone could benefit with stronger participants overall.
The purpose is to concentrate the gameplay on the strengths of the combination of Traits, Starting techs and Difficulty.
Players should feel motivated to start different openings with the leader to see what can work with the traits and techs. No need to actually finish the games, because after set amount of time the gameplay doesn't depend much on the leader.
I would really like to get some training before the SGOTM and I thinking that some brainstorming could eventually lead to stronger games by all teams, as we say in CR "more heads, more knowledge".

Another quesiton that comes to mind, why I set it up "so low" with the influx of Immortal level games-players lately. It has of course it's reason.

Basically its about preparing people for the maintenance on Emperor (Deity players would feel like maintenance doesn't matter, Monarch players would feel that maintenance is "killing").
This training scenario could serve as some sort of benchmark that could help people judge how many early cities work, where are the break points of empire etc.

About the map.
At first I thought about world buildering the start that we already know about, but I think that is not purpose of the training.
Even if we optimized first 30 turns with maximum effort, we probably could find the absolute strongest start, but then there is the problem that most teams probably would choose such opening and basically would mean that would better to start with empires set up such way, diminishing the value of the actual start of the game.

Thus i rolled "similar enough" starting position on Pangea.

So to just reiterate some things about the leader.

Traits
Philosophical - you get 100% more GPP production basically meaning you get a little bit more great persons overall, the acceleration is most useful in the early part of game, where it matters most

Charismatic - that is in a way combination of war and economic trait and imo very strong one.
you get +1 happy in all cities just for the sake of having cities. And you can get another +1 happy for building monument (30H investment) which you will probably build in a lot of cities anyway, makes Stonehenge very interesting wonder. Meaning that in early game you will have happy cap of 6 in cities compared to 4 without cha, meaning if you place well cities and build enough workers you will have stronger empire. The influence of free happy diminishes over time, but certainly makes easier vertical expansion in the era where it matters most.

The other benefit is that you get cheaper promotions. This influence on promotions is imo useful mostly for producing easier level 3 units. for example to produce level 3 mounted units out of the gate you need barracks (3 exp), stable (2 exp), vassalage (2 exp) and theo (2 exp) or mix in settled GG. Without cha, you need 1 more settled GG to produce level 3 units (bigger investment).

Starting techs
Fishing - for the SGOTM 14 and this practice game it kind of feels like useless tech, but in SGOTM 14 allows working of the lake and offers discount on Pottery.

Agriculture - for SGOTM 14 allows improvement of 1 of starting foods, in this game (as you would see later) the biggest benefit is that it allows teching AH

Starting position
 
Totally a weird game - I messed with it awhile, but it's probably a reasonably tough emperor game:

Spoiler :

We're on the far end of the pangaea, and can block some land, but not a great amount. To do so we have to aggressively settle right towards Mao, and he gets boxed in pretty easily himself. I ended up having to sit a bunch of units in Boston and watch him suicide units on me awhile, but he won't take peace. I couldn't get religion to spread to me, which made it tough. Had enough room with my settling to get to 9-10 cities, so probably still would be winnable pretty easily with cuirassiers/cavalry.

In hindsight, I should have just teched HBR and beat him down.



 
So, what exactly do you want to see? 15 cities by 200 BC?

muhaha if you can why not :)

the reason for this is to get people "feelings" for running game with the traits leader has mostly and on difficulty the game will be played.

If for example you play exclusively Deity, there are things that are different on lower levels and you surely have bigger plethora of strategies you can employ.
 
Nice idea Vranasm. I already fired up a couple of games to get the feel of this leader because of SGotM 14. Will be following this.
 
Took a shot at this...

Spoiler :


Very annoying start for a PHI leader. Limited food around and not the best land. Ironically, used CHA + fur + trades + monarchy (wine + HR) to throw down lots of happy and grow the capitol ASAP. Didn't get the flood plains near mao but did get the fur. Mao founded Judaism right next to me and switched into it :mad:.

Nothing great library/parth/SISTINE CHAPEL couldn't handle. Easily beat back his culture and teched to lib, hitting it for nat around 900 ad. Alas, the game would continue to hound me:

1. AP went to Zara who was far away and I didn't have the religion
2. They did eventually spread it to me, just as I was preparing to hit mao with cavalry.
3. Boudica settled 18% of world land without war (not too horrible, I've seen worse map scripts hand an AI 23-27%), but got to 27% after slapping charlie around.

I went jewish to stay out of early wars; literally nobody could get through china this way. I *did* spread the AP religion once it was sent to me, not wanting to lose the game if boudica somehow dropped out of buddhism.

Around 1400 AD I had my horse archer upgraded to cavalry stack ready, hitting mao, fred, and BARELY cyrus before resistance of material kinds for fast caps. Boudica was nowhere NEAR rifle but went that cute warmonger "I don't have paper but gogogogogogogogogoogo military science ASAP" route, making cavalry vs grenadier annoying (funny how whenever I go cannon they get cuirassers to annoy me). With 3 vassals to her 1 and utter field dominance + a nasty HE churner, though, it's not like it was TOO bad. I even bribed zara in on her to add insult (and help avoid any bribes the other way). Somewhat surprisingly, this caused her to cap to me before charlie broke free, instantly breaking him free in the process for a 2 caps 1 turn conclusion.

By now, however, Zara was pushing infantry (nearly 1700 AD). Didn't want to slog it out, so I headed toward UN. Won religion on the way at 1802 ------> the turn the vote came up (Zara called it!!!!) I bribed every single vassal into theocracy (had previously bribed them all buddhist and gone buddhist myself, both for this purpose and basic relations w/ zara). I narrowly won an AP victory without having the AP religion until 1400 AD, not founding/building it, etc. In other words, the extremely rare "legit" (to the extent that a diplo win can ever be legit" AP win X_X. All it took was 5 vassals.

Oh well.



Basic approach conclusion:

Spoiler :


Bur cap to get some actual commerce, marble wonders because we have marble, use non-cap cities to farm GPP (I put glib + parth + ran specs in new york, with horse/seafood/landfood to the west of capitol). I ran specs elsewhere also, when I wasn't busy whipping infra. Fast oxford is very useful with PHI and limited land but decent bur cap.

I could have done w/o the AI hax, magic rifles/grenadiers, and super vassal lady if I wanted a great finish time, but it's at least very winnable...

 
So technically TMIT's win "loses." :lol:

Exactly!

I'm so good at this game.

Nobody will win SGOTM at 1800+ AD, you know this also. Nobody that wins will forgo micro either.

But I will, because I am the superior (YES!) at laziness.
 
I had very long thought about the Phi+Cha trait combination and I think this trait combination has one very interesting synergy.
It is said that SE economies (or better said economies that tend to rely on scientists instead of cottages (and hammers as alternatives)) have one difficulty and that is that they tend to need bigger happy cap then cottages for effective run.
Well and here comes the synergy. Philo boosts running scientists and charismatic offers more people in cities to run those scientists.

The only question remains if you will be able to build Pyramids.
As I got in last 2-3 SGOTM games wonders play big part of any team planning. The most cited are of course Pyramids, Great Lighthouse and Oracle.
Those first 2 are surely game winning wonders on Emperor difficulty, but they are sufficient enough to beat other teams?

Actually no, there were games where building too many wonders led to later finish. That we surely have to have on our mind when we come into playing the SG game.
We don't compete with AI only (and honestly most of participants don't compete with AI's on this level), we mostly compete with other human teams that are capable of showing impressive dates and almost surprise other team how quickly something can be done.

As for this training game. When I look at the start I see 2 possibilities.
One is going with cottages on grassland, run those 2 food tiles (pigs+cows), but I think this really will be problematic after certain point, since you can't effectively whip and the regrowth is not quick enough.

The second one (and the one I chose for this variant) is to farm a bit the farms if need more food and don't bother with cottages.

I think that as always most talk will be about getting Oracle and what to get from it. I actually think that this leader can offer some interesting play options.
Like Oracle->CoL->caste->some early GP of choice.
Will it be for example Great Merchant? For early trade mission?

In this variant I will try to do Oracle->CoL and thus the start will be AH->mining-> and then depending on horses BW or Oracle techs and then finally writing.

As you can see deeper in the game we found out horses in the west
Spoiler :

thus I can surely delay BW

I will build another warrior before settler/worker
Spoiler :


I probably should have teched wheel though.

Writing home
Spoiler :


workers are without work though, not good planing!
But we can at least build something useful once we get the settler out and in the horse city

I will take the wheel before oracle techs
Spoiler :


I will build garison warrior and then library
Spoiler :


city 2 starts on library
Spoiler :


from this point I will run binary not to lose gold.

Worth noting that I could have built at least 1 more farm here!
Spoiler :

workers were standing for 2 turns in the west waiting for the settler... big waste of turns

And we are indeed boxed in by Mao
Spoiler :

but that is not important for this game (it's training to get a feeling for our emperor a bit)

Wheel home
Spoiler :


start on BW or Oracle techs? I think Oracle techs then BW to chop it out

worker starts to road back, the other builds another farm in capital

Library home. We are not on happy cap.
Spoiler :

tough to decide on which build to grow.
Warrior is due to the OF in 1T, maybe the barracks will do?

After I grow to happy cap, I will run 2 scientists

growth over mines here of course!
Spoiler :


We're size 6.
Spoiler :

Time for scientists... 1800BC it's getting late
Spoiler :


The stonehenge still didn't went and that is very important news!
Spoiler :

It means we should have more time on our Oracle path

Priesthood home
Spoiler :

now we need BW
Spoiler :


The need for commerce brings us super early GS... 1440 BC
Spoiler :

now what to do with him? Settle or academy?
Settle looks better... maybe :)

brings down BW time by 1T
Spoiler :


BW finally home, the chops can begin
Spoiler :


Full speed Oracle from now
Spoiler :


T72 Oracle->CoL is home
Spoiler :


capital grows next turn and gets monument...means 1 more person to do something... probably run scientists
Spoiler :
 
It's time for decision... and we have marble north there... so Lit way
Spoiler :


Now we need more settlers for sure
Spoiler :


Another GS... maybe Academy this time?
Spoiler :


Well we still can still build some temple for cap to grow it a bit not?
Spoiler :


Marble city
Spoiler :


Let's grow again
Spoiler :


I will switch to Masonry->Lit
Spoiler :


i start with ToA fail gold
Spoiler :


but very lightly now

There is fur coming in 2
Spoiler :


I built here confu monastery to put even more pressure on that damned chinese city
Spoiler :


as advertised new happy cap, ToA was built by Mao, so I prequeued Parthenon
Spoiler :

not much gold though :-(

Zara is finally willing to give me Alpha
Spoiler :


Some backfilling, more later
Spoiler :


I don't have math yet!
Spoiler :

that's unfortune

AI's don't seem hot on Math too
Spoiler :


Well why not take archery
Spoiler :


Literature home
Spoiler :

Cap will start on TGL, horse city will switch into Parth

Cyrus has math, but of course he won't give it!
Spoiler :


Zara finally got Monarchy... but I don't have anything I am willing to give in
Spoiler :


1 AD...
We're 3T from Great Library
Spoiler :


The financial situation doesn't look hot
Spoiler :


I didn't got Currency and that is probably big mistake with this map. More on it maybe later :).
 
ok this is the part where I should put some conclusion to the training scenario i played right now.

First thing that comes to mind... Oracling CoL was pretty useless. i didn't built any courthouses and I didn't used caste system (that I didn't use slavery up to T109 is completely other thing ;-)).

Then there is the problem with early commerce on this particular start. There was none and even if I delayed BW after all those things before the lack of commerce made things really difficult.

Not teching currency is something about which is jury still out. with marble nearby the Literature path is attractive.
I seem to be in crash, but I have some commerce nonworked tiles. But I can't settle the copper city in the east which is planned.

For the future of the game the horses and Iron were secured, so it's safe to expect that if I would whip some CH's and generally get eco in order that Cuirs war should win the game.

The strongest point of the game (imo) is the 3 Great Scientists before 300 BC. Which is something I was really surprised to get without CoL. The Phi is so strong.

Completely other thing is what to do with those scientist, I chose to settle 1st and build academy with second which meant that capital could steadily produce around 21 bpt without slider, which was very reasonable even without Mids.
Great Library built with the marble in 3T (and I think it's safe to expect that I will get it) should only strengthen the position of the super city.

There is no progress on Civil Service which hurts a bit.

So what people think about this approach to Phi+Cha leader?

ah forgot to post the 1AD save to check.. so i correct this now

edit:

and last thing... I totally forgot to mention the Cha trait.
it describes very tough, but I think Cha confirmed my initial feelings about the trait. I have reasonably big capital (size 9) even before getting HR and pumping in some of those warriors everyone likes to pair with HR.
So Cha definitely is useful even in such peaceful situation
 
Since nobody is providing feedback here, I dare drop few words of comment myself.
Hoping this might be appreciated, since I was a bit harsh towards you the last time. :)

Did you take into consideration trading:
- with Boudica (aesthetics and priesthood) for (monotheism and sailing)?; or
- with Cyrus (aesthetics and meditation) for (monotheism and sailing)?

Cheers! :)
 
Since nobody is providing feedback here, I dare drop few words of comment myself.
Hoping this might be appreciated, since I was a bit harsh towards you the last time. :)

Did you take into consideration trading:
- with Boudica (aesthetics and priesthood) for (monotheism and sailing)?; or
- with Cyrus (aesthetics and meditation) for (monotheism and sailing)?

Cheers! :)

well I had sailing few times in the trade screen, but then checked that I am getting trades with Mao and didn't went for it.

Mono is certainly very good if you run State religion and would speed things up. I don't like to run Religion in split religions maps usually (and consider this weakness of my play, since a lot of people can get away with adopting religion even in situation where it's totally split).

But in retrospect I would say not adopting Confu (especially since it's MY religion) is mistake. Mao makes nice buffer against heathens.

getting Monarchy and Math is more important, so better to stick with a little bit more in the hand.

All that said I won't finish the game with this approach, since as I said in the OP I want to try more strategies with same start and same leader.
This game wasn't about finishing ;-).

I am thinking about trying 2 more things:
1) HA rush on Mao with writing "first"
2) pottery start.

then to try to compare the games at 1 AD mark somehow :-D.
 
Imo rush was the best approach here.
Spoiler :
I gave it a shot and I think I did pretty well.
Turn 100, I have 6 cities, The Great Wall, 2 Settled G. Scientists in Washington and will probably manage to tech Currency before I strike :D

Some screenies:
(I forgot to take the screenshots when I captured Shanghai and Xian.











I have a couple of Level 4 guys so Heroic Epic shouldn't be a problem. With the marble nearby I can most likely even grab the Great Lib.
Guilds look very attractive for me cos most of my troops are pretty well promoted.
The alternative would be Jumbos+Trebs with a back up of some stack defenders (Pikes, Longbows, X-bows)

EDIT: One last thing. I really love the leader traits. PHI and CHA was a perfect combo for this rush
 
Variant 2

HBR rush

this time without much screens and talks... no one bothers to read it anyway...

techs went AH->TW->Mining->Writing->BW->Myst->HBR (1040 BC teched)->Hunting->Archery

in retrospect not teching Writing right after AH was very dumb. With this start the Writing should come right after AH (if going with libs)

650 BC attack date on Mao right when he settled the lame copper city in the middle. i didn't remember the metal source, but since mao fielded axes, swords I kind of supposed that is a bit useless to try to go for the metal sources.
To my surprise I met only 3 spears the whole war.

275 BC I aquire Alphabet from Zara with HBR
at the same time I capture the north west gold city and even if I don't have idea how look rest 2 cities of Mao, I have enough cities (7 now) with room for 3-4 more (2 of which are important - furs and marble) and decide that I want to extort some techs better with Alpha


Getting Math, IW AND Masonry from war is like Christmas in the summer!

some more screens




next variant will be with pottery :)

oh of course this situation is for me more interesting because I like the crash recovery phase.
 
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