End of Empires - N3S III

[Lord_Iggy]

And while we are on the topic of resolving conflicts, the Council of the Peko Republic has opted to recognize the independence of the Shevanehi Roshate. Long may peace reign on the Peko.

 

[North King]

Do remember, orders on Friday.

 

[spryllino]

I am concerned to receive a response from Thlayli/Iggy. One can't always spend one's life on #nes.

 

[Golden1Knight]

Hai Vischa is an organized state? I think it's not, but just to make sure.

What is the current technological level? I believe we are in what would be the Classical era on Earth, but I'm not sure.

 

[North King]

It isn't.

 

[Hightower]

Hai Vischa is an organized state? I think it's not, but just to make sure.

What is the current technological level? I believe we are in what would be the Classical era on Earth, but I'm not sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, North King, but I think we're at technological advancement roughly approximating the last century BCE. Not quite the peak of Roman/Han civilization kind of technological level yet.

Edit: And I'm wrong. See below.

 

[North King]

A little further than that; more like 200 AD. But it varies by tech category.

(EDIT: I heard some confusion on this point. I meant that some things, such as physics, were further along, and others, like chemistry, were behind relative to OTL 200.)

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: The reference to 200AD tech (although not related to my consideration) made me think that considering the current historical trends (signs of decay in the Cradle, West, and East; the Karapeshai becoming probably too large to be sustainable for the long term particularly with its many ethnic groups, the expansion of Enguntith, the Ardavanist philosophical allowance for upstarts claiming exatas; and the rise of tribes in the north and northwest that may replicate the whole "barbarian incursion" thing) that we are pretty much on course for another civilizational collapse (as has already occurred earlier in the game) in the time-frame perhaps of one to three hundred years. This

I don't think it would be realistic to expect that the current age of territorially vast Empires will endure for long considering the current circumstances. The long cycle of human history shows a constant process of rise, brief stasis, followed by slow decay and inevitable fall and it would be naïve to suggest that the current order will endure in this fictional world. Just my musing on the matter considering NK has mentioned he intends a time-skip sooner rather than later.

 

[Luckymoose]

You're putting too much OTL in it. Also, allowing upstarts to claim exatas? How do you think Ardavan works? Exatas isn't exclusive to one group.

 

[Jehoshua]

You're putting too much OTL in it. Also, allowing upstarts to claim exatas? How do you think Ardavan works? Exatas isn't exclusive to one group.

Sure its a game and thus its many steps removed from reality and ruled by the whim of North King and the actions of players, I know that. The main point however that I wanted to make is that the signs for civilizational decline are clearly present, and it would be generally unwise to say the current state of affairs is sustainable, with factors already intrinsic to the game indicate that this is so. That's hardly OTL. Saying that, there is a whole theoretical background to my thinking as to why in game things likely point to future collapse, however I'm not going to clutter the thread with it, although if NK wants to he is always free to ask

As to Ardavan, I know Exatas is not exclusive to one group. What I meant was that in the event of other factors weakening the authority and actual power of the redeemer, and causing problems in the Karapeshai Exatai, the philosophical seeds are there for upstart local strong-men to claim Exatas and attempt to establish their own states. We have already seen that this sort of thing is possible even within the Karapeshai itself (recall that rebellion a few turns ago which was promptly crushed) and we see the same philosophical justification occuring with the rogue general down south in the former Moti heartland. We also saw it in the Kothari Exatai in Hanakar (before that rebellion was promptly crushed) albeit the fact the nation is Iralliamite and the masses are non-satar likely means the Redeemer there can appeal to other justifications for authority and the nation is marginally less vulnerable to signs of weakness. (although only marginally)

 

[Thlayli]

The historical Karapeshai model of granting self-governance to local ethnic groups has proved fairly stable, since with the exception of a predetermined tribute to the Redeemer, and the military obligations, Princes are left to manage their own affairs. This was most disrupted during the Sheaving of the Wheat, but Taexi restricted most of his persecutions to his own Princedom.

So whether or not the Karapeshai are too 'large' is more a function of whether it remains in each ethnic group's benefit to participate in the Exatai (and in Satar culture) as a hedge against a monoethnic dominance of one group over many others, such as the Evyni Empire was.

The Karapeshai is best thought of as a federation of co-dependent states, eternally bound by Exatas and the mutual alignment of the other Princes against any Princedom which would attempt to break out of the balance and become hegemonic. The Karapeshai Civil War is a classic example of this, but there are plenty of smaller ones.

But at least you're thinking in the right direction. If the Golden Mask were to become institutionalized under any one particular Princedom, rebellions would become more likely in that Princedom's traditional enemies.

Trust me, I do a lot of thinking on this matter. But, you actually reminded me of something I was going to do earlier.

From: Arteras, Prince of the Sea, Tarkan-ha of Redeemer Talephas the Great, Scroll-bearer In His Absence
To: The Minai, Sartasai, And Other Peoples of the Lower Einan

Due to his betrayal of our Redeemer and Scion, Prince Sianai has been stripped of his lands. It has been decided that from the Wind Princedom's land, there will now come two Princedoms: The Wind that was, to rule over Xieni lands only, and a new Princedom. There are no known warriors with great exatas among the Minai, so we will allow them to come forth in a grand display of martial exatas.

For two years, no Karapeshai armies will enter the territory of the Lower Einan, and all garrisons will be withdrawn. We will allow the true rulers of the new Princedom to be decided by ancient custom. Upon the conclusion of this period, or the elimination of all challengers, he will be enmasked as Prince of the Axe in Atracta before the High Oracle and his fellow Princes.

This is the will of our lord and Redeemer. Exatas.

 

[Angst]

This is the first part of a longer text I've been working on for a while. I thought... You know what. I'm sick of the rest of the world and the mod ignoring the Ilfolk. I will become not-pointless!!!

So I thought screw perfectionism and let's get this trainwreck started.

This means that I took some liberties with the descriptions of Iralliam and Indigahor, as I have very little understandings of those, I admit. I’m welcome to notes and corrections.

~

The Rise of Palafte
Part one: Ilfolk Culture pre-Opulensi influences

The Ilfolk were, up to approximately 250 IL, convinced of a faith which was quite malevolent. In
accord to its cosmology, they would repeatingly ‘purify’ the darks of themselves, these same darks
being punishments by the great goddess-of-darks, Mor – not incidentally coinciding with the name of
the great volcano of Leli’i Pok (Leli’i Pok is ‘Levepol’ in Ilfolk). Mor was a god of ambivalence, both
destruction and life. She was seen as being most powerful during twilight and both weakest and
strongest during the night, during which darkness ruled. But during the night, the Ilfolk could actually
perform rituals to cleanse themselves of the world’s impurities. The infamous institutional firstborns
sacrifices, called ‘borneblod’, were seen as purging the mother of her impurities, the child being
manifest of all the weaknesses and evils she had experienced since her first period, whose rituals
were called 'blodlod'.

The Ilfolk understanding of impurity is not the same as understood by chaste or ascetic
philosophies. The Ilfolk severely promoted consciousness-enhancing experiences such as singing,
preaching and gathering, same with Iralliamism, but also drugs (in the forms of soul-eaters), and the
singing was improvised (contrary to the Iralliam ideal of communal choir). Sexual intercourse was
thought of as a major spiritual archievement, especially if it was driven ‘by the Will’ or ‘The Great
Fire’. It should be forceful and wild, uncontained or uncontrolled yet intentional, and to others, often
bestial. Shyness was seen as Mor’s darkness and was cleansed by bringing the shy subject into
drunkenness. Additionally, the patriarchy was unheard of in Levi’i Pok, where gender and sexuality
wasn’t really considered nor treated strangely. Perhaps this was due to the fact that agriculture
before the arrival of the Opulensi wasn’t really a political institution with rules of lineage or gender
roles; it was not really a thing, so to say.

 

[Jehoshua]

The historical Karapeshai model of granting self-governance to local ethnic groups has proved fairly stable, since with the exception of a predetermined tribute to the Redeemer, and the military obligations, Princes are left to manage their own affairs. This was most disrupted during the Sheaving of the Wheat, but Taexi restricted most of his persecutions to his own Princedom.

So whether or not the Karapeshai are too 'large' is more a function of whether it remains in each ethnic group's benefit to participate in the Exatai (and in Satar culture) as a hedge against a monoethnic dominance of one group over many others, such as the Evyni Empire was.

The Karapeshai is best thought of as a federation of co-dependent states, eternally bound by Exatas and the mutual alignment of the other Princes against any Princedom which would attempt to break out of the balance and become hegemonic. The Karapeshai Civil War is a classic example of this, but there are plenty of smaller ones.

But at least you're thinking in the right direction. If the Golden Mask were to become institutionalized under any one particular Princedom, rebellions would become more likely in that Princedom's traditional enemies.

Trust me, I do a lot of thinking on this matter. But, you actually reminded me of something I was going to do earlier.

I would qualify the first bolded section since its not just self-interest against potential hegemonic domination that is at play, but the nationalism effect as well. Human nature is such that man seeks to congregate to those who are similar to himself (each to his own) which usually leads to conflict.

The second bolded part I would also qualify to include if the institution became weak. The Karapeshai may be best classified as a confederate system, but this inherently means the unitative power is not as strong as some other states, albeit it is a better structure for the Exatai than a central model if you consider the loss/benefits to a more centralised model of governance.

Finally, of course, I would note there are extraneous factors completely beyond your control, but one just has to deal with those when they come

 

[Lord of Elves]

I am always frustrated by Jehoshua's eloquence whenever I recall his abhorrent actual political/social beliefs

 

[Jehoshua]

I am always frustrated by Jehoshua's eloquence whenever I recall his abhorrent actual political/social beliefs

I am always bemused by your solipsism and irrationality, and the fact you seem to think you can validate an argument simply by emotional appeal to the group – its bizarre that you think you can validate yourself through public acceptance when of course public acceptance has no relationship at all to a positions actual validity or merit.

Either way, our political differences are neither here nor there to my point regarding this game, but regardless observing that your angst that I give no stock to your nonsense endures at least a month after our dispute originated is quite amusing, not to mention fascinatingly narcissistic.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I am always bemused by your solipsism and irrationality, and the fact you seem to think you can validate an argument simply by emotional appeal to the group – its bemusing that you think you can validate yourself through public acceptance when of course public acceptance has no relationship at all to a positions actual validity or merit.

Either way, our political differences are neither here nor there to my point regarding this game, but regardless observing that your angst that I give no stock to your nonsense endures at least a month after our dispute originated is quite amusing, not to mention fascinatingly narcissistic.

I meant to interject in order to be complimentary, not resurrect some kind of feud. Nonetheless as you point out, that is neither here nor there.

 

[Jehoshua]

Oh I know you don't want to ressurect some sort of pseudo-feud, but If you meant to interject complimentarily, why did you mention my so-called "abhorrent" political beliefs to begin with? Your utterance sounded much more like an frustrated cry to the heavens (shaking the fist of angst and outrage all the while) than anything else because of it.

Grazie regardless for the recognition.

 

[Thlayli]

Get out of this thread, LoE.

I would qualify the first bolded section since its not just self-interest against potential hegemonic domination that is at play, but the nationalism effect as well. Human nature is such that man seeks to congregate to those who are similar to himself (each to his own) which usually leads to conflict.

The second bolded part I would also qualify to include if the institution became weak. The Karapeshai may be best classified as a confederate system, but this inherently means the unitative power is not as strong as some other states, albeit it is a better structure for the Exatai than a central model if you consider the loss/benefits to a more centralised model of governance.

Finally, of course, I would note there are extraneous factors completely beyond your control, but one just has to deal with those when they come

I really don't think 'nationalism' on an ethnic basis would become a factor any time soon even if we were following a blatant OTL idea track. The idea of one ethnic group to a nation is anathema to almost everyone at this point.

What annoys me is that you are commenting on my internal politics, as opposed to anyone else's, in a not-so-obscure fashion as to reveal your own (probably IC) hopes or wishes as to what you want to happen, namely the decline of an empire that is not particularly friendly to your religion, and disguising it with an air of impartial scholarly analysis.

With that said, I am not playing the Karapeshai based on anything less than the beliefs and constraints of its leaders on a day to day basis. Simultaneously I chart out long-term ideological and social developments, but I am more interested in the long-term survival of Satar culture and Ardavan than I am in the persistence of any one particular Exatai.

I am simply stating that the flexibility and governing strength of the Third Exatai is, as the great Axilias-ta-Alma mused, superior to either the first or the second.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Get out of this thread, LoE.

I am actually a player in this NES, Thlayli-kun.

EDIT: Apparently Terrance is my personal spokesman so I defer to his legal representation, et al

 

[Terrance888]

Why should he? He's as much as a player as anyone else.