Espionage - still usable?

[Poke]

Started working on a plugin for this a few months back, which has somehow gone beyond its original purpose and is developing into a mod/game in its own right (is it worth it? Is Civ4's community still sufficiently large for another mod?), thanks to the expanded functions of the RifE dlls and python. Somewhat inebriated right now but got to wondering if the code for espionage is still functional at all. I'm not sure if Kael didn't use it because it wasn't needed, or whether he adapted it to suit something else within the original mod

 

[Xanthippus]

I daresay that the CIV community is still fairly large, and after the disappointment of CiV I imagine it will stay that way until several major patches and/or an expansion is released for CiV.

That said, I've never really felt espionage to be significant for any Civ game. I've always just ignored it. It would be nice if it could be made relevant and fun, though. I would certainly be interested in seeing such a mod.

 

[Poke]

I liked the espionage part of Civ4. I;m a huge fan of the Call to Power games, which had spies but not the espionage component of the commerce percentage. CtP was extremely flawed, but the unconventiional warfare, including spies was unique and interesting. Can understand why it's not vital for the Erebus mods though

 

[Valkrionn]

Espionage is blocked off in the DLL, and would require DLL work to open it up; Should not be difficult though, and the necessary code is in the Orbis DLL already. Simple merge on your part.

We thought about adding Espionage, but as of now it is not planned for inclusion. I can, however, show you some of the ideas we tossed around.

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AdALd3TwFjopZGhqdzVrajZfMjFoZnI3NjJmcQ&hl=en

 

[Poke]

not overly sure if its important in itself. would like to have more commerce options but have managed to work with the standard research, gold, happiness/culture stuff. Would love to know the work arounds though, that'll be great

 

[yturk39]

Are you asking if anyone values the espionage features in Civ IV, and thinks it worthwhile to keep in mods / new releases of the game?

If so, my answer is HELL YES!

My feeling is that Espionage may be undervalued by the community because it isn't well understood, and like many aspects of the game it isn't fully explained by the documentation or Civilopedia entries.

For example, I think espionage plays an enormous role in diplomatic tensions, especially early game. How? If I've discovered one other Civ, but I notice that turn after turn he's not able to keep up with me EP point-wise, I can conclude a few things: 1) He's met somebody else, and 2) Rather than drop his guard completely toward the other Civ, he's having to balance his EPs between us both, which is leaving him vulnerable to us both. I think these sorts of balancing acts go a long way toward explaining why some Civs the minute you meet them are "Annoyed" with you for no reason.

And while I can't prove it yet, I'm willing to bet that EP spending / rival targeting has an enormous influence on how and where barbarians spawn. From what I've noticed, barbarian spawn is about as random as the so-called random events. There's method to it.

 

[Valkrionn]

Firstly: He was asking if it is usable in FfH, or if it has been blocked off in the code.

Second, my opinion on Espionage... It's not so much that the role it plays is unnecessary. Espionage done well would be a very fun thing.

The issue is more that the majority of players find it poorly implemented. The googledoc I linked outlines some of my thoughts on it, but here is the part that discusses the existing system, and why I find it flawed:

1. It is a forced mechanic. If you do not put wealth into it, you are hosed; You have no good way of negating the effects of espionage without committing to the system yourself. Yes, I'm aware that there are others (Research, for one), but this is one that does not offer much return for the investment in Vanilla civ. Some thoughts on ways to fix this:
   • Not all uses should be blatantly hostile; If a peaceful builder can use it enhance himself, rather than just screw other players, the system becomes more widely usable.
   • There should be a separate way to negate it, without relying on more espionage. In my mind, this is what Crime should be used for; High crime makes missions more successful, low crime (or high security, if we split it into two counters; Detailed later on) would make them less successful. Empyrean would also offer ways to avoid espionage.
2. Using espionage to perform missions makes you more likely to succumb to attacks yourself. This may have been intended to balance it, but it virtually ruins the system IMO; It encourages you to just horde your espionage, never using it. Few ideas to fix it:
   • First off, fixing point 1 should help here. More ways to defend against espionage allows you to use it more actively.
   • Change the way espionage costs work; Maybe allow missions for free, but require a certain ratio of espionage between you and the target? As in, must have 50% more espionage than the target in order to sabotage their city.
   • Break espionage into two counters, one for civ-wide functions and one for unit functions.
     • Civ-wide allows passive actions such as viewing another civ's power chart; It is not decreased by these actions, and the ratio between attacking and defending civ's civ-espionage is used to modify mission success for units.
     • Unit espionage allows active missions, and is allocated as a percentage of the civ-wide espionage; This portion DOES decrease, as the units perform missions.

As for your theory on barb spawning... Sorry, but it's entirely wrong. Espionage has nothing to do with it, unless there is an espionage mission which will cause barbarians to spawn.

And yes, this is fact. The code is easily accessible in the DLL.

 

[dommain]

I think espionage points could not all be used completely during missions but placed back into a pool where it will slowly get reinvested into new *ways* of using the information. Kind of like how Battle Forge uses mana. Different Units could have access to different espionage techniques (defense for that specific technique also) but *spies* have all techniques accessible to them and get better/ stronger with each use.

edit: Ideas

Calvary units
Technique:abduct:To attack unit with civilization you are not at war with with chance of capturing the unit in combat but gain large diplomacy hit
Condition: unit must start in own territory and be a Calvary unit , chance is base on opponents unit level verse your unit level ; chance = ([(your unit level+10)/(opp lvl +2)*espionage ratio]/100)
Defense: if unit is movement range of Calvary, for next turn. attack is not successful

recon units
Technique: sabotage: destroy improvements next to unit but gain large diplomacy hit
Condition: Unit turn must start in own territory when used against civilization you are at peace with. Chance for success = ([(unit level+10)*ratio]/100)
Defense: in sight range of another recon unit or with in 2 spaces of another recon unit of that nationality

Disciple units
Technique Awe struck: Chance to hold unit for X turn base on unit level, possible repercussion of arrogant demand of other civilization leader.
Condition: Unit of disciple unit types must not move or cast spells or the effect of the technique is removed. Other disple units cannot be moved into sight range of units or effect are cancels
chance = ([(your unit level+10)/(opp lvl +2)*(.85*Number of units already affected)*espionage ratio]/100); numbers turns depends on how less leveled unit are compared to dispel units Turns= ((your unit lvl-opponents)"max 8 now")*efficiency-random 1:7)
Defense: Discipline unit is in stack or move with in range of units: hold is removed

Warrior units
Technique warrior yell: Chance for units to move to nearest friendly city (uncontrollable), possible repercussions of out right declarations of war or in war, enemy getting enraged and getting +70% bonus to ability
Condition: Unit of warrior type must be on equal ground, hill on hill, plains on plains. chance = ([(your unit level+25)/(opp lvl +2)*espionage ratio]/100+5)
Defense: Warrior in stack or move onto unit being afflicted with the fear effect.

Archery units
Technique: Poisons arrows: Chance to poison enemy units with serious poisons that drains life every turn. possible repercussions of out right declarations of war or in war, enemy getting enraged and getting +30% and own unit getting afflicted by poison and get damaged to 10 to 20% life
Condition: Unit of Archer type must be on equal ground or greater footing, hill on hill, plains on plains. or on hill vs plain chance = ([(your unit level+25)/(opp lvl +2)*espionage ratio]/100+5)
Defense: Archer in stack or with in sight range of defending unit.

 

[Torugu]

I remember reading somewhere that the AI is incapable of using Espionage with units that aren't dedicated spies.

 

[dommain]

I remember reading somewhere that the AI is incapable of using Espionage with units that aren't dedicated spies.

That just because the AI script does not contain the information for the spy actions. You just need to make some simple scripts and add them to the current AI script patterns. Easier said then done.

 

[Poke]

I was thinking of using the espionage slider as something else completely, collecting points to fund special buildings and units at the expense of science