Everything about Corruption: C3C edition

[alexman]

That's the only version where they completely hold up.

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by alexman
That's the only version where they completely hold up.

Thanks. I'm getting conflicting information from other players so it's nice to know from the expert.

 

[alexman]

Originally posted by grahamiam
Also, how do you calculate the baseline OCN for custom maps? Is it based on map size or does the creator determine it?

The creator controls the OCN from the World Sizes tab in the editor.

 

[Rellin]

In the editor there are two options for reducing corruption, the percentage of optimal cities and the corruption slider. I was wondering if you have any knowledge on adjusting these two would affect gameplay. I have raised the percentage of optimal cities to 150% regardless of difficulty level (Currently Emperor where is was 80% before the change) and have the corruption slider at 50%. I play on huge maps and will end up many more cities then the OCN and can't stand to have them losing many shields to corruption, will this change affect gameplay in any other way that I am missing besides lowering corruption? Will these changes help or hurt the AI?

 

[Grille]

I believe that tweaking the OCN will influence the AI's expansion/razing behaviour: lower OCN -> AI razes more and vice versa.
Also note that FP-build option will be delayed with higher OCN.

A lower set corruption slider *seems* to help me more than the AI, at least in my experience (although I have no proof that the AI would not build useful stuff in 'normally' corrupt distant cities).
Maybe it has something to do with the obsevation that an AI civ hardly goes for domination victory, whereas the human would have a somewhat expanded empire at some point. So more uncorrupt cities (plus probably more tightly spaced) gives more production in total, giving an advantage here.

 

[Rellin]

I don't edit the OCN, just the percentage of OCN on the difficulty tab so there is no affect on the FP or AI initial expansion. Though I see what yer saying about how the Human player tends to have a larger Empire later in the game especially if going for Conquest or Domination victory.

 

[alexman]

Well, lowering corruption is a major effect on gameplay, that has several side-effects, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Commercial civilizations become weaker, as do corruption-fighting improvements like courthouses and police stations. The FP becomes less of a factor. The relative balance between governments is also affected, and communism is probably even more of a monster in your version.

You're probably better off increasing the map OCN rather than the percentage of the OCN on the difficulty tab, for the reason given by Grille. Otherwise you know that it's worth expanding more, but the AI does not.

 

[kryszcztov]

Really nice thread, thanks a lot, alexman !

I have your utility for calculating corruption (just saw it worked), but it's for PTW... Do you plan to upgrade it for C3C 1.15 ? I don't know if it takes a lot of time to code, so maybe you want to wait for the last patch ? Anyway, an upgrading would be nice. I can provide testing if you lack the time.

 

[AbuHab]

The C3C Patch v1.20 readme file states, in pertinent part:

* . . . Forbidden Palace cities no longer act as a 2nd city empire. They are still affected by distance corruption from the capital.

But you state:

Originally posted by alexman
For non-communal government types, distance corruption depends on the distance of each city from its closest palace.

These two statements seem to conflict. Which is correct? Or am I perceiving a conflict where none exists?

 

[alexman]

Haha! Since when does Firaxis know the game better than us Civ addicts?

Of course the readme is wrong!

 

[kalkas]

Originally posted by alexman
DISTANCE CORRUPTION

For all non-communal government types, the distance corruption component is proportional to the distance of a given city from its closest Palace. For communal governments, the distance to the closest Palace is considered to be the same for all cities on a given map. The “closest palace” to a city can be the Palace, the Forbidden Palace, or any other Wonder with the “reduces corruption” ability.

For corruption purposes, distance is always an integer number, and is given by:

     d = max(x,y) + min(x,y)/2
where 
     max(x,y) denotes the maximum between x and y,
     min(x,y) denotes the minimum between x and y,
     x is the distance in the NW/SE direction,
     y is the distance in the NE/SW direction,
and the integer division is rounded down.

Alexman, thanks for your article that indeed gives an excellent account of how corruption works in the C3C game.

I have some questions concerning the above formula.

Why is only min(x,y) divided by 2, and not the whole sum of max(x,y) and min(x,y)? I am not so familiar with the coordinate system used for locating the points in the C3C map.

Again, I am very grateful for your work that had contributed such a good account on the most challenging feature in the C3C game.

Regards,
Kalkas

 

[alexman]

The reason is that the programmers wanted to approximate the distance without using square roots and floating point operations.

 

[Greebley]

I do see a mistake in T-Hawks formula compared to the original.

Nopt = max(OCN * (L/100 + c + Gr + Gp*Nwe + 0.25*Ni), 1)

is very different from

OCN * (L/100 * (c + Gr + Gp*Nwe) + 0.25* Ni)

The first formula has a lot less affect due to difficulty level.

The first formula is:
OCN * L/100 * (c + Gr + Gp*New) + OCN* 0.25*Ni

So the "factor of 8" is multiplied by the difficulty bonuns in communism.

Assuming Ni of two we get the following values for Nopt:

Regent: 8.5 * OCN
Monarch: 7.7 * OCN
Emporer: 6.9 * OCN
DM: 6.1 * OCN
Deity: 5.3 * OCN
Sid: (Is it 4.5 * OCN or 3.7 * OCN???)

Commercial affect is fairly small.

Did I do everything right? If so the affect of commmunism is less strong on higher difficulties than was previously stated. It is still pretty high though. A diety game on a standard map still has 106 with both corruption improvements (96 without) as the number of optimal cities (Nopt).

 

[Tarzus]

Alexmen,

I had writen an excel for corruption for all cities and had upload it for your review. I would very much appreciate if you could check through before I add in commence, beaker and $ calculations for the whole empire. With your approval, I shall then release it to public. I had send you a private message on this issue, please read and advice.

Regards

Tarzus

 

[alexman]

Greebley, the two formulas are different because Nor Me discovered an error, so I changed the initial post at some point after T-Hawk's post.

Tarzus, I'll go over your spreadsheet soon, but in the meantime feel free to release it in case anybody else wants to check it as well. You can always replace the file in your post if we find errors.

 

[Tarzus]

Thanks Alexman.

One thing:
Cmax = 0.9 - (0.1*Ni + 0.7*Nwc or Nwe)
if I have max Ni and max Nwc/e,
Cmax = 0.9 - (0.1*2 + 0.7*2 for non-communal govt)
Cmax = 0.9 - (0.2+1.4)
Cmax = 0.9 - 1.6 !
Cmax = -0.7 that is -70% !?
Is there an error here ?

Regards

 

[alexman]

You can't have negative corruption, just as you can't have more than 100% corruption, so in the above example you would get 0% corruption.

 

[Tarzus]

Ah,

I misunderstood Nwc with Nwe.
Nwc is anti-corruption wonder that exist in this city, while Nwe is anit-corruption wonder(s) that exist in the empire.

That make sense. I have yet to play communal govt. and I like to ask can FP and SPHD exist in the same city ? Based on your formula I think they may not.

Also, is Palace count as Nwc and Nwe?

 

[alexman]

Yes, you can have the FP in the same city as the SPHQ, although you would probably want to avoid that in practice.

The Palace does not count as a corruption-reducing Wonder in the same way as the FP. Maximum corruption never comes into play with the Capital becuase that city always has zero distance corruption and zero rank corruption.

I changed the Cmax part of the formula in the initial post to make it clear that you cannot have a negative maximum corruption, thanks!

 

[Tarzus]

Alexman,

Re: FP & SPHQ

1) distance corruption = zero, but rank corruption remains unchange as before they were built ?

2) Cmax = max(0.9 - (0.1*Ni + 0.7*Nwc),0)
Cmax is cap to 20% when Nwc exist, that means it also cap down rank corruption right ? Nwc still affects rank corruption eventually ?

Currently changing formula in worksheet, thanks for the help.