Execute Ken Lay? (Enron)

[betazed]

So would there even be a trial in your system.

Sure, without a trial how will you determine the amount of fine.

Can you pre-pay?

No. How can you pre-pay? We do not know the amount of fine before you commit the crime?

Can someone else pay on your behalf?

Sure. Just like someone can hire lawyers on your behalf.

 

[betazed]

In your system, there is nothing but paying upfront. Where is the justice in that?

Who said anything about justice? I know I didn't.

 

[Rambuchan]

Ah, I see you are easily offended. Oh Well! All I am doing is asking questions!

Yeah offensive ones. Forget about the apology anyway. Or the fact that you're talking to people who don't see these as abstractions to be juggled about so carelessly. It's plain you don't give a hoot.

You see I am under no such illusion! Irrespective of what you and I say in CFC OT it will have not one wit of bearing on real people's lives.

On the contrary, I live in a world in which I share space with people who have to experience what we discuss. So I'm talking to you from that arena, not only from some kind of cyberspace that you seem to think is not related to the world of people's everyday lives. That's the difference.

But he will be much poorer in my scheme. So if he does it again and can't pay the fine put him in jail! Hey, execute him for all I care. In the current scheme he still walks away at the end of it, he is much poorer and if he commits the crime again he can't hire the lawyers and he goes to jail. So what's the big difference?

He's poorer in my scheme too and is denied access to the lawyers in future too. There's also some kind of trial happening in mine, which you don't seem to want to happen. And he doesn't walk away from it is the whole point which you're missing here.

He has his wealth repossessed by the state and he goes to jail, stays there.


Not entirely OT: How many people's lives were adversely affected by the whole debacle btw?

 

[blackheart]

Who said anything about justice? I know I didn't.

Then your system is unacceptable. Why have laws and trials and punishments if justice isn't netted?

 

[El_Machinae]

Um ... to benefit society?

I'd rather society benefit from the justice system than serve Justice (with a big J).

 

[MobBoss]

I think the reason we dont execute people for commiting blue collar crime such as this is intent.

Enron Execs have never intended to kill anyone in commiting their crimes. And no one has died as a direct result of their actions, at least that we know of.

I also dont agree with the "we have executed people for less" statement either. Ripping off a business, irregardless of the amount of money involved, is not comparable to planning/executing/commiting murder.

 

[blackheart]

Um ... to benefit society?

I'd rather society benefit from the justice system than serve Justice (with a big J).

How would paying your way out of a crime benefit society? Wouldn't that tell people with money that they can freely commit crimes as long as they have the cash to pay?

 

[.Shane.]

Not entirely OT: How many people's lives were adversely affected by the whole debacle btw?

Read my last post, it has some links and you can see. I'd say 10s of thousands were effected in some minimal way. In terms of real harm... the 100s or low 1000s.

Don't let him get you off track. I find it interesting when decent threads go off on tangents and people focus on bizarre side arguments. I often wonder if that's because the main argument becomes boring or too hard to discuss/argue/debate.

 

[betazed]

Then your system is unacceptable. Why have laws and trials and punishments if justice isn't netted?

Can you unequivocally say that "justice" (whatever it is) is being served now in our current system always? if not then why have the laws and trials in our current system?

Also why is it not justice? He did a crime, he paid his dues! Why does the dues have to be spending time in a jail cell? How does that help anyone?

It's plain you don't give a hoot.

Actually, I do. Just not about things you give a hoot about.

On the contrary, I live in a world in which I share space with people who have to experience what we discuss. So I'm talking to you from that arena, not only from some kind of cyberspace that you seem to think is not related to the world of people's everyday lives. That's the difference.

jeez, we are doing all that? And all I thought I was doing was having harmless fun over a internet board and killing time. Seriously, Ram, arguing with you takes all the fun out of CFC OT Take it easy man.

There's also some kind of trial happening in mine, which you don't seem to want to happen.

have all the trial you want. I am not debating the trial. I am debating the punishment.

 

[betazed]

Wouldn't that tell people with money that they can freely commit crimes as long as they have the cash to pay?

Like telling them something they already know?

 

[Rambuchan]

have all the trial you want. I am not debating the trial. I am debating the punishment.

Your punishment is ineffective, because it allows the crime to go on.

 

[blackheart]

Can you unequivocally say that "justice" (whatever it is) is being served now in our current system always? if not then why have the laws and trials in our current system?

Also why is it not justice? He did a crime, he paid his dues! Why does the dues have to be spending time in a jail cell? How does that help anyone?

Because while it is not always, it is still being served. "Paid his dues" by paying money and getting off of the crime is not justice, it's bribery at the least.

Like telling them something they already know?

You don't seem to realize that wealthy people DO get convicted and DO go to jail.

 

[El_Machinae]

How would paying your way out of a crime benefit society? Wouldn't that tell people with money that they can freely commit crimes as long as they have the cash to pay?

If they pay more than the damage they cause, it's a net benefit, isn't it?

Of course, there is the side question of: wasn't their money (savings) already benefitting society - since it was being saved/invested/etc. already? Because the money is already benefitting society, then paying money to society doesn't benefit society. It's a closed system.

Edit: I'm an idiot, because one could then argue that him stealing the money didn't adversely affect society. The first sentence still stands.

 

[betazed]

Your punishment is ineffective, because it allows the crime to go on.

Well, whatever punishment we are giving now is also not effective. haven't you heard of repeat criminals?

In any case, how does locking him up solve this problem? You mean just because you locked him up you reformed him completely?

 

[El_Machinae]

Your punishment is ineffective, because it allows the crime to go on.

Current punishments are also clearly ineffective, because crimes continue to occur.

 

[Rambuchan]

Well, whatever punishment we are giving now is also not effective. haven't you heard of repeat criminals?

Sure I have. This criminal would not be getting the opportunity to reoffend on such a grand scale. Or any scale for that matter.

In any case, how does locking him up solve this problem? You mean just because you locked him up you reformed him completely?

Life can mean life. And the problem is solved by him never getting to run such a racket ever again. Once again, your plan does allow him that luxury. EDIT: And that's also in answer to you El Mach.

Read my last post, it has some links and you can see. I'd say 10s of thousands were effected in some minimal way. In terms of real harm... the 100s or low 1000s.

Thanks.

 

[blackheart]

If they pay more than the damage they cause, it's a net benefit, isn't it?

What about the jobs lost and such?

Before we go any further, are you (el_machinae and betazed) considering paying for all crimes or specific types?

 

[betazed]

Because while it is not always, it is still being served. "Paid his dues" by paying money and getting off of the crime is not justice, it's bribery at the least.

So paying a parking ticket is bribery? Compensating for financial damage is bribery?

You cause damage to the tune of $10 million and you pay $10 million. That is perfect justice. You mean to say that, that is somehow worse than taking no money from the person but sending him to a dark cell is justice?

What kind of justice is that and why is that justice?

You don't seem to realize that wealthy people DO get convicted and DO go to jail.

Sure they do. But not as frequently as poor people. or have you not seen the statistics of people incarcerated in America? Or are you saying that poor people are more prone to commit crimes? And how does that gel with your sense of justice?

 

[El_Machinae]

What about the jobs lost and such?

Before we go any further, are you (el_machinae and betazed) considering paying for all crimes or specific types?

I'm not proposing anything. I can see how using fines for the rich would act as a deterrent and a better way of compensating society, but I also see how jailtime is the most progressive of punishments systems, because it treats people equally (your year is my year).

With regards to lost jobs - again, if the fine was greater than the damages, what's the problem? I mean, if I lost my salary, but was given more than my salary in compensation ... am I really harmed?

 

[betazed]

Sure I have. This criminal would not be getting the opportunity to reoffend on such a grand scale. Or any scale for that matter.
Life can mean life. And the problem is solved by him never getting to run such a racket ever again. Once again, your plan does allow him that luxury.

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere; but you are really tying yourself in a Gordian Knot here.

So what you are telling me is that the purpose of laws and court etc. is that if a crime is committed then the punishment should be such that we make sure that the crime committer can never ever commit that crime again.

If that is so, then the only punishment for murder is death. Are you for it? And how do you punish petty theft. Life (literally) in prison, or should we cut off his hands?