Explorable Lairs and other changes I'm trying

[Jhoniten]

Here's an idea that might add some more flavor to the lairs. Think back to the old hitchhiker's guide game. Imagine exploring a dungeon and it throws up a series of events where you decide your units actions. Choices could be influenced by civ, religion, strength, promotions, combat type, etc. This might could be made to all be done in one turn (Small lair) or maybe your unit is in there for a while (large lair). While in there for a while, maybe something that prevents you from using the unit til it is over and prevents it from being attacked.

Just a thought

edit: Found a few issues. Tribal Village Settlers can make a village inside a city. Guardian promotion does not leave a unit (had 3 of them on one unit). Any thought given to the power of Pact of Nilhorn now? 3 str 6 dungeoneers, once they get a few promotions from bashing a few lairs to rubble they are scary strong. Might want to tone that down to just one giant joining with added bonus of recruting more from hill giant steading. Tribal villages need to disappear faster. Right now you can just sit on one and spend 5 gold to get scouts, workers, and warriors. Even nicer, you can use that new unit to try and get more. All you need is gold.

Excellent job so far, love playing this mod.

 

[Polycrates]

Loving the new version! No longer getting swamped by hordes of elementals!

In particular, the new tribal village mechanics are truly awesome. Very very excited by this.

I've played the start of a few games, and I'm having a few of the issues Jhoniten mentioned though. The village defender promo seems to work quite erratically. A couple of times I've had a unit sitting on a village for 30+ turns without getting the promo, and when I reload, it has three instances of the promo. And it doesn't seem to disappear when you move from the village.
Also, in a couple of games the villagers would consistently agree to resettle, whereas in others I've had units on multiple villages for extremely long times with no response.

Tribal Village Settlers can make a village inside a city.

Could this potentially be altered to instead add +1 pop to the city?

Tribal villages need to disappear faster. Right now you can just sit on one and spend 5 gold to get scouts, workers, and warriors. Even nicer, you can use that new unit to try and get more. All you need is gold.

Agreed, but I dunno it'd be as fun having them disappear. How about just an increasing cost every time you visit a given village (e.g. five gold first visit, then 10, 15, 20 etc)? Maybe also a limit to number of visits (e.g. only every five turns).

The villagers seem to always preferentially build farms if possible, and only build cottages if there's no irrigation. Fair enough, but I really like the idea of having them more likely to build a cottage. Seems like it would open up more interesting strategies, where actively going after tribal villages can give you a few cottages to get your economy going. Normally you kinda have to rush straight along with a slow slog to Education (or Mysticism) every game or have your economy stagnate, and this would allow for more interesting alternatives.

Another idea: If your civ is good, give a better chance that villagers will pack up and ask to resettle. If your civ is neutral or evil, give a chance that attacking a village will generate a slave.
Also, should destroying a village maybe raise the AC?

Anyway, thanks heaps for this modmod, it has really made the early game infinitely more fun.

 

[Marnok]

Feedback already! I should sleep more often, this is great!

Okay,
Guardian at the moment has 3 levels, which is why you see multiple copies. (I haven't looked up how to do that neat "only show top level" trick) It is added randomly. I stopped the removal to test what happens, so at the moment it will stay with the unit.
Each level adds to the "die rolls" cumulativley.
I hadn't seen the not-showing. I shall investigate.
What do we think - should this vanish if you move away, or should it remain as a boost to the unit? The original plan was for it to fade if you move. Also I had in mind originally, you get the promo when you win a battle in the village, perhaps I could return to that.
The length of time to pack up bags was meant to be random, rather than a predictable buildup, but if it is too slow I can simply adjust the percentages.
At one point I was thinking, results from villages ought to be influenced by overall happiness in cities. If your nation is miserable, villages won't want to join!

Villages in a city I'll call a definate bug, I'll fix the build script. If you are in a city, add to population? I think that sounds reasonable, at least subject to testing.

Nilhorn - interesting ideas, perhaps it has become a big power option. I might make a set of results in dungeoneering to make it a gamble to send those guys down there. In that sort of environment, a Hill Giant could go native!

Visit Village price/frequency - well, the quick options are to increase the price, to only allow one unit per turn to visit (removes the "spell" from everyone else, does not apply it to units created) and/or to add more bad or inconvenient results. On result of this ba;ancing, I think I'll test a one-visit-per-turn, and perhaps a price of 10. Remember there is a chance they won't do anything good for you, and a chance they will rebel.

Villages building farms - the script can be rebalanced, indeed at the moment they tend to make farms where there is irrigation and nothing else special. This can be changed, and maybe would be more thematically correct to have a residential area. Maybe I could write a popup in (you want village or farm?) I've not done any popups yet.

Village Attack results:
I already pencilled in an idea that Raiders etc should get better money from looting, so I can put in checks for individual civs or civics (slavery gets you slaves, maybe can't attack if you are pacifist, etc). All good ideas and not too hard to implement.

 

[Marnok]

Hm, I am just testing a tweaked set of files, and noticed something I didn't expect - a unit was sitting on a village for ages, then as soon as I clicked it, the village converted to settlers. So, obviously I have some flaw in the way I am thinking about this, I wanted it to happen automagically not only when unit is active. I may need to shuffle the code around to make it work as intended.

EDIT:

haha, another problem, I got them to settle and the immediately turned back to settlers because the escorting unit was still there. They did it twice before I realised. OK, another rethink required...!

EDIT:

Testing : the guardian promo is granted on winning a combat in a village. The villagers will only want to pack their bags after a combat, or when Visited. I've removed what I hoped would be passive background actions as this new way may be better.

Will post update once I've run a few tests and a hundred turns of normal play.

 

[xienwolf]

To make a promotion disappear, set the <PromotionNextLevel> field. If the unit has the promotion listed in NextLevel, then the other promotion will not display. (Fun trick is to list a promotion in its own NextLevel, then it just doesn't display at all on the main unit screen. Still shows up on the mouseover though)

 

[Marnok]

To make a promotion disappear, set the <PromotionNextLevel> field. If the unit has the promotion listed in NextLevel, then the other promotion will not display. (Fun trick is to list a promotion in its own NextLevel, then it just doesn't display at all on the main unit screen. Still shows up on the mouseover though)

Hmm, I guessed that was it, and I thought I'd done it already. I shall have another look. I probably broke it. XML hates me.

 

[Marnok]

http://www.marnok.com/Civ4/Marnok150508.rar

some small tweaks. I don't *think* I left any test code in!

Changed the way Guardian is granted as discussed, now on winning combat (either attacking an enemy unit on a village, or defending it). Should only see 1 level now. Can also be gained on Visits.
Visiting a village should result in uprooting a bit quicker now. Will only uproot after combat, or when you Visit.

Changed "visit" cost to 10. Might make it so that gift units count as "moved" or at least "casted" when they are created, to stop you immediately using them to Visit again.

Won't leave a Farm when joining your civ just because there is water. Will now only make a farm on food resource, most tiles will result in a Village. I tried to put a popup in to let you choose, but I obviously misunderstand the popups at the moment.

No villages in city! Should add to population instead now, if you settle in a city tile.

Put a Nilhorn Trap in dungeons (not tested yet though...) There is a chance the Giant will go native and join Barbarian state when they dungeoneer. So, if you do make a mighty Giant, every time you delve you risk creating a powerful enemy!

 

[Polycrates]

http://www.marnok.com/Civ4/Marnok150508.rar

some small tweaks. I don't *think* I left any test code in!

Changed the way Guardian is granted as discussed, now on winning combat (either attacking an enemy unit on a village, or defending it). Should only see 1 level now. Can also be gained on Visits.
Visiting a village should result in uprooting a bit quicker now. Will only uproot after combat, or when you Visit.

Changed "visit" cost to 10. Might make it so that gift units count as "moved" or at least "casted" when they are created, to stop you immediately using them to Visit again.

Won't leave a Farm when joining your civ just because there is water. Will now only make a farm on food resource, most tiles will result in a Village. I tried to put a popup in to let you choose, but I obviously misunderstand the popups at the moment.

No villages in city! Should add to population instead now, if you settle in a city tile.

Put a Nilhorn Trap in dungeons (not tested yet though...) There is a chance the Giant will go native and join Barbarian state when they dungeoneer. So, if you do make a mighty Giant, every time you delve you risk creating a powerful enemy!

I was halfway through writing a response when I saw this, you work fast! Looks very nice, will test it out in a minute.

Regarding the popup, I personally wouldn't bother - a bit of randomness is cool, and a popup is kinda clutter-y anyway. The way you've got it now sounds good.

What do we think - should this vanish if you move away, or should it remain as a boost to the unit? The original plan was for it to fade if you move.

I think it definitely should vanish if you move - if for no other reason than removing clutter, as well as confusion (which village does it apply to? etc).
I like your changes to how it's obtained too.

At one point I was thinking, results from villages ought to be influenced by overall happiness in cities. If your nation is miserable, villages won't want to join!

Seems like an awful lot of work for a pretty minor effect!

Village Attack results:
I already pencilled in an idea that Raiders etc should get better money from looting, so I can put in checks for individual civs or civics (slavery gets you slaves, maybe can't attack if you are pacifist, etc). All good ideas and not too hard to implement.

I like the Raiders and Pacifist ideas!
By the time Slavery comes around, I suspect all the villages would be gone, and a single slave wouldn't be much of a boon anyway. A chance of a slave right from the start would be a nice balance to an early cottage without being hugely overpowered, and there's of course much greater risk involved. Slavery civic is perhaps more institutionalised slavery throughout the whole society rather than just rounding up a few savages here and there - that's how I'd justify it anyway

Okay, I'm off to give this thing a try - I picked a good time to be home sick from work!

 

[Marnok]

Okay, I'm off to give this thing a try - I picked a good time to be home sick from work!

I hope you are better soon - and that work don't find out for ages

 

[Polycrates]

I hope you are better soon - and that work don't find out for ages

Heh thanks but it's nothing dramatic

Anyway, had a play through the new version and the tweaks are nice. Noticed a couple of things though:

- When they build an improvement, the villagers don't clear the forest (I wasn't elves). Dunno if this is intentional or not.
- I can't seem to get the villagers to move by visiting the chief. Is it a chance once per visit, or a random chance for every turn you're there after you've made one visit?(I prefer the latter, I think) I've sat a guy there for ages, I've bribed the villagers every turn for about 20 turns, still no good.
- I got a treasure hunter event, but the treasure spawned on a peak
- Village seems like an awfully high level for the cottages to start out as. Maybe hamlet or even cottage would be better?
- I've had to switch from Raging Barbs with this modmod since the (admittedly far fewer) high level barbs head straight for cities early on and still tend to wipe out a lot of civs without any hope of defending (me included).
On the other hand, non-raging barbs seem to be even more passive than usual, and even the homeless orcs and lizardmen etc seem to mostly just wander around and hardly ever try and wipe out civilisation.
Is there any way to do anything to the barb aggression to make it higher for the lower-level barbs and lower for the higher-level barbs?

Anyway, awesome once again!

 

[Marnok]

Heh thanks but it's nothing dramatic

Anyway, had a play through the new version and the tweaks are nice. Noticed a couple of things though:

- When they build an improvement, the villagers don't clear the forest (I wasn't elves). Dunno if this is intentional or not.

It was intentional, in the sense that I could not be bothered to remove them yet
I was in two minds about it. Villages can spawn in forests, so I was thinking if they are capable of living there, why would the forest vanish just because they became civilized?
It's one of those preference and mild balance things. After I get more feedback, if it seems to be a problem, I can change it easy enough.

- I can't seem to get the villagers to move by visiting the chief. Is it a chance once per visit, or a random chance for every turn you're there after you've made one visit?(I prefer the latter, I think) I've sat a guy there for ages, I've bribed the villagers every turn for about 20 turns, still no good.

It is each time you visit, or win a battle defending them. There are bonus points for Scout (nobadgoodie) types, guardian promo, and being inside the cultural border. Penalties for plagued, enraged demons and the like (you know what these villagers are like for torches and pitchforks)
I will have another look at passive per-turn action. Getting a village to up and move shouldn't be too easy, but it shouldn't be a micromanage pain either.

- I got a treasure hunter event, but the treasure spawned on a peak

Heh, I even put a note in the code that this could happen and I wasn't bothered. OK, I'll put in a little walk function so if it is in impassable terrain, it moves to the next tile until it finds somewhere to sit.

- Village seems like an awfully high level for the cottages to start out as. Maybe hamlet or even cottage would be better?

OK, hamlet seems better then, it was only because they are called "Tribal Villages" I thought people might expect a village.

- I've had to switch from Raging Barbs with this modmod since the (admittedly far fewer) high level barbs head straight for cities early on and still tend to wipe out a lot of civs without any hope of defending (me included).
On the other hand, non-raging barbs seem to be even more passive than usual, and even the homeless orcs and lizardmen etc seem to mostly just wander around and hardly ever try and wipe out civilisation.
Is there any way to do anything to the barb aggression to make it higher for the lower-level barbs and lower for the higher-level barbs?

Hmm, I am not sure. Maybe I can make it that the most powerful unit in a tile is always the one to sit on the lair - the default is, the last unit to get out ends up sat on the eggs. This way, an early Pit Beast won't be pushed out of the lair by a warrior. Eventually though the big guys will want to stretch their legs... so perhaps a randomly applied promo to make them aggressive?
I'll have to look at the way AI works to help tweak this. Of course 0.32 affects AI muchly, if I understand correctly, so maybe I should wait for those changes and see what I can do then.

Anyway, awesome once again!

Glad you are enjoying it!

 

[Jarlaxle135]

I freaking love this mod! I'm actually facing a challenge from the wild! I've been attacked by manticores, minotaurs, water elementals, and all variety of undead. Plus, the named baddies are sweet. I'm amazed the AI uses this properly, but they do. Keep up the great work. Oh, and I vote for tribal villages to stay as villages (not hamlets).

 

[Marnok]

Current testing:
Most powerful unit will stay behind in a lair, not just "last out of the door". So, uber-Barb monsters should be less likely to make an early rush.
It also means you could move villages to strategic locations, knowing the first Manticore through town will stop there and eat the peasants rather than raging into your land! Of course that might mean more Manticores in a few turns, but worry about that later.



Planning:
1. Switch from "goody" based spawns in some cases to scripted spawns - at least remove the chance for multiple pit beasts!
2. Looking at ways to track villages better. Need to learn how to "pickle" in python, I think (did some quick searches and that seems to be the way to handle extra variables and save them...) Idea is, each vilage will build up a "score" instead of using the Guardian promo. They will "pop" when the score is high enough (and the score will add to the die roll when you visit)

Thinking:
Maybe leave villages as village not hamlet when they convert, because it is sort of costly getting them there.

 

[xienwolf]

Quick and easy way to remove Pit Beasts: Set minimum Spawn to 1, and set spawn chance to 0. That should make it force 1 to spawn, but be unable to spawn any more on the nearby tiles.

 

[WhitewolfIV]

Hey, there is a thread about making the waters more dangerous, is there any chance you would implement some of those ideas? Or make waters spawning points that could be explored and rewards for doing so would be greater than on land? Or at least spawn monsters that could go on top of land and also be a threat?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Are you going to post this in the ModMod subforum?

 

[Sureshot]

ya i keep being surprised that its not there yet, i know i didnt notice this thread til it had 3 pages, and after reading through it i couldn't believe how cool and far along it was

 

[WhitewolfIV]

You know you can download it already and try it out.

Would be helpful to know where all the files go:

Assets - XML -

Events - EventsInfo
Events - Eventstriggerinfos

Gameinfo - Goodyinfo

Terrain - InprovementsInfos

Text - GameText-FFH2 (The 3)

Units - PromotionInfos
Units - SpellInfos
Units - UnitClassInfos
Units - UnitsInfos

Assets - python

CvEvent Manager
CvGameUtilities

Entry Point - CvRandomEvent Interface
Entry Point - CvSpellInterface

For us non-modders.


http://www.marnok.com/Civ4/Marnok150508.rar

Site goes up and down

 

[Marnok]

Hi, I'll post this in modmod forum then, when I get the next version sorted. If I get my work finished early, that might be later today or ealry tomorrow.

(My site ought to be up - it was down a lot over weekend, some sort of problem on the server, 99.9% uptime my foot - it better not be down for next 40 years to make that guarantee stick)

Yeah also I'll try to make it a proper installer thingie so it stick files where they ought to be.

 

[xienwolf]

You can still use a zip/rar file, just make sure to have all the files you changed nested properly so that when opened all the user sees is an "assets" folder. Then it is still easy for placement.