Exploring lairs strategies

[BillSeurer]

I'm well into my first .34 game (marathon/huge, yeah, I like long, slow games) and tried out various ways of exploring lairs. Here's what I found...

I've decided you should NEVER use an important unit (like an experienced scout/hunter) except at the very beginning of a game. There are too many ways it can be killed or crippled or mutated in some unfavorable way.

I finally settled on giant spiders being best with another unit or two in a defensible spot nearby on "overwatch". If the lair is on a hill, or better yet a wooded hill, the other units can be on the lair, too. Only pop the lair when all these units are fully healed and have full movement (full move doesn't really matter for the one doing the opening). Why?

If you summon something nasty they usually won't see your spiders because of their invisibility and just wander off. The spiders can then chase down the minor summoned things if they want for mucho XP and ignore anything really bad. I actually took out two other AI empires this way! If the spider ends up mutated, withered, diseased, poisoned, and/or whatnot you can always eventually drop it into some city for silk if it lasts that long.

The nearby unit is to help out the spider if it summons things, guard it if it gets damaged, and pick up goodies for safekeeping or transport. Also to act as an escort if you score a good unit (so far I've gotten 2xlizardmen, 2xcommanders, a mage, 3 disciples (all different faiths), an adventurer, a great bard, a great merchant, and an assassin).

Having a griffon as the nearby unit works well because if you find a treasure map the griffon can get to it quickly. It can also get out of harms way if something nasty pops up. Plus it can quickly transport artifacts off to other units.

For shipwrecks I used griffons because that's all I had early on in the game. At one point I had 4 griffons but am down to one now because of shipwreck "accidents". It was still worth it because of the assassin I got which is the most powerful unit in the game right now BY FAR (I added a commander, Orthus's Axe, and it became the chosen of Aeron which in .34 is total kick*ss) as it can kill 3 units a turn easily and has killed up to 7 on defense.

 

[Blackmantle]

Severed souls (the invisible souls of sidar divided souls on cast...) should do very decently (if they can explore lairs in the first place... No danger of loss there...) . The divided Soul just needs to be 2 tiles away and can still run off farther if things turn sour... (or catch the critters emerging if something smaller is spawned our of the lair or a good result like a greath person needs "protection")

Also fits their flavor very well... . And also works fine on shipwreks.

Giant Spiders are another really neat choice. (Better if you get good results like most mutations or simmilar things for the exporing unit alone in question...)

Immortals should be another very good choice late-game (or Brigit if you can get her earlier via huge wars in early-game on larger maps... )

 

[BillSeurer]

Mud Golems would be a good choice too for the one Dwarven race though their defense (2?) is kind of low but still better than none.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I am pretty sure workers can't explore Lairs.

Rarely does a benefit go directly TO the exploring lair, so ye olde warrior works fine (Or Axeman).

 

[Sarisin]

I'm curious as to HOW MANY lairs you get to explore?

In my first two games I have gotten to only 3-4 each game (huge map) before the lairs got strong guards (Skeleton) and/or the raging barbs showed up.

Later in the game, the lairs seem to be gone or inaccessible.

 

[BillSeurer]

In my game the guards hardly mattered as the two lizardmen I got early on (turn 2 or 3 IIRC) were 4 strength+1poison and had gained 5* with several first strikes after a relatively short time. I just moved them through the wood harvesting animals until they were gone and then taking out barbarians. I'd take out the guards with the lizardmen and then have some spiders that were trailing along investigate the lairs. There were dozens of them, probably 30 or 40. Even fairly late in the game I am still finding new lairs in hidden corners. I'm not sure the AI is ignoring them (it had had some units I don't think it could get otherwise) but it certainly isn't being aggressive in going after them. And the shipwrecks were all mine because the AI never captures griffins. Or at least if it does they die off right away.

 

[BillSeurer]

BTW, I decided to just try taking out the AI civs with the super assassin. It has destroyed the largest civ all on its own only getting wounded ONCE which was immediately healed in its next combat. The Chosen of Aeron is WAY powerful in .34. +2 unholy combat and heals 20% after combat (and osmething else maybe?). I thought the +2 was the best part but have since decided the heal 20% is the big part. Stacks of 5 or 6 foes throw themselves at this guy and he's unhurt afterword as it seems to heal after each individual combat!

 

[Zechnophobe]

Man, Grigori had a Hero with the Chosen of aeron, and I couldn't figure out why the thing was so ridiculously brutal, I couldn't even wear it down, it kept freaking healing!

 

[Blackmantle]

Yep he is soo cool. Like canibalize on Steroids (and as Sidar also mixed in the nether blade + the axe i got my hands on in exchange for some serious losses / danger.)

Makes another very powerful unit for exploring lairs (especially if he gets a neat mutation before! he gets the chosen. Possibly making the unit alot stronger again...)

Grigori adventurer turned assasin with such a promotion sounds really brutal though...


But because its midgame + world-unit + nonresurectable it shouldn't be all to unbalancing... But a serious reason to go for poisons fast.

 

[BillSeurer]

I got mine from a lair before anyone was close to poisons. I probably could have won the game right there by just having him go after the AIs but I sent him back home to help fend off the neverending horde of barbarians that was wearing down my defenders. Once that slackened I sent him off on his rampage.

 

[Blackmantle]

Now that sounds like it whould need some kind of sensible prerequirement (tracking perhaps? Thats taken only if you go down that route soon anyways usually. Or poisions but starting with some nice promotions like hero or something simmilar.)... good catch.

I whould favor that one even over a greath engineer let alone those dwarves / lizardmen.

 

[BillSeurer]

My "super assassin" finished his rampage. He took out all of the other 4 AI civs that were left all by himself and got up to 800 XP. There were no more promotions available and the ones he had filled 3 columns on his info display. During the rampage I actually did have to have him rest to heal 3 or 4 times but that was out of several hundred combats and were for only 1 turn each.

And now there is just one AI civ left with one city that I can't seem to find. Because of my rampage the AC is 45 and Bad Things are starting to happen...

But, yeah, I think the Assassin+Aeron's+Axe of Orthus+Commander at even the current point in the game is just waaay too potent.

 

[avalonnn]

recently explored a dungeon just outside the Hippus border. Got a very bad result, and a few turns later, the Hippus civ was destroyed. New strat: explore lairs adjacent to enemy capitals in the early game!

Also, avoid using your heroes to explore lairs. Not only might you lose the hero, but worse is getting the hero enraged or possessed.

Is anyone using fast monks or hunters to find extra lairs?

 

[Del69]

Current game started with Feryl Viconia, popped a lair 2 squares from my settler and it was an adventurer that has been nursed through the recon line to a shadow. Yoinked the mirror off of the elf hero for her and its just got plain silly when she became the chosen. The ability to hide nationality on and off at will is really nice when you'd like to get her on your boats or something. Side note, the magic immunity crown nor Ordos axe can be used with the mirror simultaneously

Really those adventurer's should not be able to pop out of lairs

Just to drive the point home on the last AI I went and swapped most of the nodes i had to nature for a 34 strength Yvain wandering through the world like with more power than the red dragon as icing on the cake

 

[BillSeurer]

recently explored a dungeon just outside the Hippus border. Got a very bad result, and a few turns later, the Hippus civ was destroyed. New strat: explore lairs adjacent to enemy capitals in the early game!

You don't even have to do it early. The mid-late game things that pop out are pretty strong.

BTW, that's the beauty of using spiders to do the exploring. Pop something bad and watch it go wander off looking for something to eat. Repeat. I've gotten two sets of nastiness out of the same dungeon in a row that then went off wandering. And sure enough 20-30 turns later a nearby civ was destroyed.

 

[Sarisin]

Bill, I see exactly what you mean in your OP.

I was really lucky and hit THREE lairs for Lizardmen. They were easy to level up and took out 3 AI civs in addition to quite a few barb cities. But, more importantly, they roamed the map popping every lair, goody hut and graveyard. I lost only one, but got two disciples (founded AV and FOL as the Illians), a Great Bard, and a Great Commander. I also was able to capture two powerful Giant Spiders with cool names and promotions. Finally, I got a bunch of neat equipment like Timor's Mask, Rod of Winds, Jade Torch, etc.

I got a lot and only lost a Scout and one Lizardman.

 

[Blackmantle]

Founding AV very early sounds really hefty (more so than virtually any other religion save perhaps FoL.).
Build the Stigmata of the Unborn early, perhaps even before your first academy (spreads AV very fast which ups the AC, nets you a neat gain in science and powers your troops right from the start with stigmata-promotion. Also likely turns some AI evil or keeps them that way which can be a diplomatic benefit rather hard to gain usually as an evil (or then-evil) civ...)

Only question remaining on my part regarding desciples would be if one can also get a Nightwatch from such a lair at the same point (mysticism researched +) or at all.
If that's possible its another very powerful early gain (very early Nox-Nocturnis should be able to make ones life easier in a hefty way... ).

 

[Sarisin]

I haven't seen that. As I said, in this game I got the Savant and a FOL Disciple, but remember the Illians as Agnostic would not normally be able to found those religions (they can get Empyrean and CoE much later though). As you said, I used my first Great Sage to get the Stigmata and the Great Bard to get the FOL holy building.

In a previous game I got an Ecclesiastic and an Acolyte and was able to found Empyrean and the Order very early. I had to wait to build temples though.

I'm not sure if you can get the Nightwatch from a lair.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

I've yet to see a Nightwatch from a lair. Founding a religion early, with your capital as your holy city, is amazingly powerful though. Between shrine income and the +50% from God-King it's possible to keep your entire economy afloat with just your capital.

One recent game I actually saved Bradeline's Well until pretty much endgame. As a result, I managed to farm it for free units (Corlindale with Domination, Chalid with Command III and Stephanos' stolen crown) for quite a while before getting a result that actually cleared the lair. 2 free Hero orc champions, 3 Ogre Warchiefs, and a Myconid all joined my forces before the Well finally turned into an Iron vein.

 

[Turinturambar]

You can't get a nightwatch from the lair, only all the disciples of the other 6 religions after researching mysticism.