Failing to make Piety work for Byzantium

[adcarrymaokai]

After knocking several easy Science Wins as Korea, decided to go for a CV as Byzantium to take advantage of their religious UA—and failed miserably. Seems like Piety opening makes me lag not so much in culture (faith buildings and choral music ftw!), but puts me behind in growth and hence science, so I get fewer wonders, while the AI is pumping out tons of culture for my tourism to compete.

Both games are Huge map, Archipelago, Immortal, regular barbs, standard speed

Game 1. Started on an island with the Incas; one coast tile away was another island with Siam and the Dutch. Coastal/jungle capital and coastal other cities. Found El Dorado (500g) and bought a settler to settle near it. Opened Tradition then went Piety. 3-4 Dromons sailed off for world exploration. Earth Mother Pantheon to get faith from copper sources (4). For religion, took Tithe, Cathedrals (no other faith buildings were available), Choral Music, then IP+RT. Unity of Prophets as Reformation. That hardly helped against AI missionary spam, but I managed to convert all of Poland, some CS’s and the entire Siam to my religion. Unfortunately, Siam was the cultural, military, and tech leader, so shared religion made his already strong tourism even stronger, and then he went on and conquered the Dutch. I was able to get Leaning Tower, Louvre, rushed Globe Theater from Pisa GE, Porcelain Tower. Spammed archaeologists and got theming bonuses for Oxford, Louvre, Hermitage, Globe Theater, and Broadway—not bad! In that game, I was slightly behind in tech, but early sea trade routes with the Dutch let me catch up, and I was on par entering the Industrial Era and was the first to get to Modern, but after that I fell behind in tech: I did not rush public schools and did not re-route international trade routes to internal for faster growth (was hoping for trade routes tourism boost). Also, since I was first to enter Modern Era, I was the first to adopt ideology and chose Freedom to eventually get down to media Culture. Then every civ in the game—and I mean all 11 of them—went Order or Autocracy. Ugh, really? In the end (T358), I sort of gave up and went on to liberate Prague from Atilla just for the lulz and then dropped two great musicians on Siam for very minimal tourism output (I know I am supposed to wait for the Internet, but I spawned some for the Broadway theming and then they kept on coming). Cities pop: 27-25-21 with second city having 108 hammers. Over 9000 faith. 209 base tourism without airports and internet. Second to Siam, but it’s rising rather slowly. 4-th on the score list.

Obvious mistake: did not send food trade routes into the capital. Kept jungle tiles which gave culture from Dutch pantheon until fertilizer. After that, improved 3 bananas and built more mines on jungle copper. Perhaps, could have just kept jungle for science+culture and sent internal trade routes for growth. Other than that, not sure what I could have done against wonder-whore Siam. We had been buds for the entire game, share religion, but he also has strong militarily, and going to war with him would probably give me backstabber penalty and DoW from others, since he is friends with about everyone, and no one wants to DoW him.

Did I give up too early? Airports and Internet will increase tourism by a lot, and I can just try to eliminate Siam after achieving influence over others. But it’s T358 and I feel like the game is taking too long, seeing people talk about pre-300 CV.

Game 2. Even more fail than the previous one. Started on a big island, settled 3 cities again. A nice desert folklore/Petra start with 5 desert hills. Bee-lined currency after sailing (for pearls). Nice culture and faith ruins. Because of Petra, finished a rather late NC (seems like people here prefer to rush it asap). Timed third settler from city 2 and settled city 3 when Petra was complete—sent the Petra caravan there. Indonesia was GP and missionary spamming, so I DoW’ed them and stole 2 GP’s to make Holy Sites. Killed a bunch of missionaries and spread my religion to America and Mongolia on another island, but other GP-spamming civs came about and started converting cities. For religion, I took Tithe, Cathedrals and Pagodas, Choral music and Religious Texts, To the Glory of God for Reformation. Saved faith for GP instead of spamming pagodas/cathedrals, and maybe that is why I got a leftover Reformation instead of desired Sacred Sites (though it seems Sacred Sites and Jesuit Education always fly away first and the AI always gets those). Shaka’ randomly DoW’ed me and sailed with Frigates, but I built Galleases in 3-4 turns each and repealed the attack. Only trade routes suffered. T246 and I just researched Scientific Theory. Significantly fewer RA’s this time around, as well, and everyone was too far away for beaker trade routes for the entire early-mid game. So I just gave up.

Mistake: Perhaps, if I had spammed enough faith-bough buildings, I could have beaten the AI to Reformation. Other than that… well, I guess, taking Piety in the first place. Also, Archipelago map can suck when you get isolated.

Just can’t seem to make Piety work for Byzantium, even when mixing with tradition, and if anything, Byzantium is appealing only because of its UA which seems strong on paper.

Here are the saves. Lambast me, please. (had to compress files or else too big)

 

[tommynt]

who said u should go into peity just cause u play byz?

All byz does is offer 1 additional thing to your relgion - so you will want a religion, but having a religion depends 0 on your sp trees you choose but all about land, pantheon and wonders you build.

In fact byz should have even less interest in choosing peity sp as other civs as it can generate huge amounts of faith on his own by f.e. choosing double faith generating pantheon or pagodas AND monestries on top of +15% grow in peace

 

[peddroelm]

just managed my first ever culture win on deity level with Byzantium ..

Had very good isolated dirt for 5 coastal cities ..

Piety was a big factor overall BUT don't start with piety directly (and don't finish it too early).. (the bonuses don't mix well with opening (need to get cities out here before AIs ) - temples come late and cost a lot of upkeep early game for most civs)

Options are Tradition Piety mix or Liberty Piety mix ..In the case of the Culture game Tradition has the edge because you will have more than solid faith generation (byzantium + piety combo) and tradition enables faith buying Great engineers for some crucial wonders ... I would say 3 into piety mid game (production bonus/extra faith and extra gold from temples (buffed)) .. And finish it it before endgame policies (take advantage of its culture generation due to settled prophets amplified by % culture bonuses in capital)(liberty/rationalism)

About faith - ideally you should aim to ~ 150 FPT towards the end game .. (will need 9k to faith buy 4 Great Musicians at top tourism output, you will get a free great prophet for completing piety eventually - you should hopefully generate/faith buy 3-4 more and plant them near your capital (will get lot of faith back due to liberty "new deal") and land culture can be converted to tourism with good multiplier - and help offset a bit the "culture detour" trough piety) . If your faith generation is really solid you also spend 1k for great artist/writer to convert to works and increase your tourism output .. (past industrialization you should try and keep all faith CS allied for the rest of the game)

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Sadly Piety won't guarantee you get a religion - your faith partenon (random starting dirt) and hopefully faith ruin/wonder/CS state (again the random starting dirt + early scouting) will .. Byzantium bonus kicks in after you establish a religion (can get second faith patheon if the dirt allows or some other bonus) ..
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[joncnunn]

Piety is often the choice for Byzantium players because their entire UA depends upon founding a religion early. On the double faith producing pantheon bonus; you can't choose a double faith producing pantheon until you found the religion; by which time it wouldn't be nearly as useful as an early enhancer.

The second game failure was the late NC; even going tradition that's a killer.

Use Inquistors to protect your religion; especially if you are still building infrastructure.

Key to Piety is that you need culture ASAP. If the land mass is contenants or pangena, sure a scout first to give a chance of running across a cultural ruin, but the second build should be a Monument. I'd also tend to recommend a culture inducing pantheon with Piety; faith based pantheon is usually overkill.
Also Pagodas + Cathedrals is excessive faith consuming buildings. (But don't knock Cathedrals saying it was the only available in the first; if going for cultural victory, it's the best one; its Pagodas I'd skip; choose the boring one adding 2 happiness to each standard temple if happiness is a concern.)

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Piety isn't just about generating more faith but to make it more effective and to get the reformation belif.

Culture Partheon is good with piety.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Options are Tradition Piety mix or Liberty Piety mix ..In the case of the Culture game Tradition has the edge because you will have more than solid faith generation (byzantium + piety combo) and tradition enables faith buying Great engineers for some crucial wonders ... I would say 3 into piety mid game (production bonus/extra faith and extra gold from temples (buffed)) .. And finish it it before endgame policies (take advantage of its culture generation due to settled prophets amplified by % culture bonuses in capital)(liberty/rationalism)

I did start Tradition -> wonder policy, then went down to finish Piety and built amphitheaters -- so when I got Legalism, it gave me free Opera Houses.

The reason for rushing Piety was to get Reformation, but it just seems that the AI will always take Jesuit Education and Sacred Sites. I think it's somewhat poor game design, just like the Great Library which the AI always gets by turn 33-37. What is even the point of having it in the game if you know you won't get it no matter what? Might as well remove it for the human player.

Sadly Piety won't guarantee you get a religion - your faith partenon (random starting dirt) and hopefully faith ruin/wonder/CS state (again the random starting dirt + early scouting) will ..

Actually, opening Piety and going Organzed Religion to rush shrines can help you snag a religion, but it is going to put you behind, since you are delaying other important buildings/units by putting those very early hammers into faith.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

The second game failure was the late NC; even going tradition that's a killer.

Well, I started it asap after Petra, but Petra basically delayed it by around 24-26 turns, and I absolutely needed Petra to make my capital viable. Perhaps, I could have built NC in the second city? But then it's benefits would be smaller.

Use Inquistors to protect your religion; especially if you are still building infrastructure.

My cities were actually fine and not spammed by the AI. It was other AI's that I converted who got spammed by other religions, and afaik you can't use inquisitors in AI cities. Basically, I wanted the money from Tithe by spreading my religion far away, but other AI's were adamantly competitive about spreading their religions overseas as well to the point that I couldn't keep up with them because I tried to conserve faith for great people.

 

[joncnunn]

My cities were actually fine and not spammed by the AI. It was other AI's that I converted who got spammed by other religions, and afaik you can't use inquisitors in AI cities. Basically, I wanted the money from Tithe by spreading my religion far away, but other AI's were adamantly competitive about spreading their religions overseas as well to the point that I couldn't keep up with them because I tried to conserve faith for great people.

With inquisitors, you should normally use the passive ability (block AI missionaries/ GP from converting your city in the first place rather than the after the fact remove it)
While the active one would not work in AI cities, the passive one might; however that's more inquisitors than you really want to build.

Basically don't bother using Missionaries / GP to permanently convert other cities. Instead use Religious Text enhancer belief for better passive spread; which in many cases will reconvert cities for you.
And the main point of Tithe is the gold in your own cities; anything from other cities is just gravy.

Also, with regard to Petra; if you're on a high enough difficulty level to where Petra can't reliably be built after NC completes and the capital absolutely needs it just to be decent; it calls for a re-roll.

 

[redwings1340]

Warning: the following advice goes against everything else I've ever read on these forums.

I'm starting to think that piety is actually best with early war strategies. The reasoning behind this is that religion is almost essential to strategies that involve heavy warmongering. True, I'm saying that because religion is essential for war, then war is essential for religion, which is a logical fallacy, but the two work well hand in hand. Religion is good at getting you additional gold and happiness when you add tithe and religious buildings in to your religion. If you're going tall/peaceful, these aren't huge concerns, as four cities with a lot of buildings can support themselves pretty well on both counts. With an army though, you need a religion to make it work effectively. Having an army gives an added bonus of being able to conquer any nearby civs that have competing religions.

Now, I haven't tried this warmonger/piety strategy on anything above emperor, and the speed at which religions go on these difficulties makes me afraid to, although I might experiment with honor/piety on immortal after my Aztec game. Still, on emperor with Songhai I managed to make a nice honor/piety strategy work pretty well, and I think I should have taken piety after honor with the Aztecs on the game I'm playing now.

The trick to piety is to not get it too early. Open something else first, and fill out piety in tandem with another tree. You might even want to delay your opening shrine a little bit (ie make it third or fourth building instead of second), but get early shrines and temples in your second and third cities to make up for this delay.

Now, as I've said, this advice goes against everything else I've read on these forums. I still think there's some way to make it work.

 

[qemist]

I always turn goody huts off so my order may not be for everyone, but I go monument, scout, shrine. Ideally the scout finishes building exactly when I get my first culture pick, which is Piety of course. That way I don't waste hammers on the shrine while it is still expensive.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

With inquisitors, you should normally use the passive ability (block AI missionaries/ GP from converting your city in the first place rather than the after the fact remove it)

Actually, I really like the religious tolerance policy in Piety. It gives pantheon belief of second most popular religion, and in Game 1 I got culture from jungle tiles, while in Game 2, it game me 15% growth. I usually welcome other religions, and if you are playing Indonesia, that is basically mandatory.

 

[_megafone_]

Don't ever open with Piety; get three SPs in either Tradition or Liberty to kickstart your empire, then go Piety.

You need to hit somewhere around 250 faith by turn 70 to consistently found a religion on Deity (sometimes you can do it later, but that's a good benchmark). If you go straight Piety and get Organized Religion, founding a second city by turn 40ish and a third by 50ish, you'd get like what, 70 faith off the policy, plus a few more due to building faster Shrines; definitely not worth the downside of stunting your early growth. Won't guarantee you a religion by itself (far from it, in fact), and if you have the means to found one, you don't need it that early.

There are a bunch of good ways of founding a religion on Deity; starting with Piety ain't one of them. In fact, starting off Piety is so bad that I think the availability of the tree should be bumped to Classical Era, so as to make the AIs stop hurting themselves by opening with it.

 

[joncnunn]

Don't ever open with Piety; get three SPs in either Tradition or Liberty to kickstart your empire, then go Piety.

You need to hit somewhere around 250 faith by turn 70 to consistently found a religion on Deity (sometimes you can do it later, but that's a good benchmark). If you go straight Piety and get Organized Religion, founding a second city by turn 40ish and a third by 50ish, you'd get like what, 70 faith off the policy, plus a few more due to building faster Shrines; definitely not worth the downside of stunting your early growth. Won't guarantee you a religion by itself (far from it, in fact), and if you have the means to found one, you don't need it that early.

There are a bunch of good ways of founding a religion on Deity; starting with Piety ain't one of them. In fact, starting off Piety is so bad that I think the availability of the tree should be bumped to Classical Era, so as to make the AIs stop hurting themselves by opening with it.

Can't speak for the AI or even deity level (not fun for me to have the AI start with 2 settlers) ; but it seems to me that the main disadvantage of waiting to open Piety until you've gotten three policies in another tree is that there would be no way to finish Piety before you've already enhanced your religion and you'd have to settle for a holy site from the free GP from completing the tree.

It also appears to me that Poland may have the easyist time with a Piety start compared with any other civ. (Even if they go Piety start first, they can also finish Tradition as a second tree before ren. era and not miss a beat for Rationalism.

 

[adwcta]

My experience on Immortal/Deity, trying to play wide-style.

Pure Piety as an opener sucks. Always. No exceptions.

Liberty with Piety after 3 policies is okay. You have to be able to judge the start though (which you should be able to do after going 3 policies into Liberty before you have to make this decision). Also, it's only better than Liberty straight up for Domination and Diplomacy games. Science/Culture, you're still better off not touching Piety.

Pure Liberty is noticeably worse than Tradition, but not by a huge margin (and it's easier to actually get religion with Liberty on Deity than Tradition).

Piety without the finisher (stop 1-3 policies short, depending on what your pantheon is and how many cities you've already founded), skipping into early Patronage/Aesthetics, or even early Commerce/Exploration... is actually very very good. I prefer to start with just two cities, and only start the third/fourth ones as I get religion (so it picks up the religion automatically and then you're set auto-converting your other cities and AI cities). You can get all victory conditions doing this.

Of course, tall Tradition is still better than all of these. But, note that tall Tradition on Deity will not allow you to get a religion without a faith pantheon or a lot of luck with runes/CSs/AI-pref. Hardly kills your game, but if you want to play with religion, Tradition is sometimes not an option.