Fall Under: A Module for RiFE
- Thread starter MrUnderhill
- Start date
Of course, but a 3-turn fort is very OP, while the other is not so. I do have the feeling they'll soon change that "fast" fort to something more balanced.
Give the AI a chance!.
Gravage
Oh yeah.
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I just.. had.. Bhall declare war on Cernunnos.. Hrmz. I presume its Bhall casting a spell with Cernunnos in range? Either way, this could turn interesting. With either side prevailing as superforce with buttloads of exp.
Its a shame, really, about these spawns, cause they kinda suck away the fun. I always play on Huge maps with 20ish civs, but the number's been reduced to 10 by turn 180 just cause of the spawns, and every other civ is being held back by the constant threat. Might turn into a gigantic me v Bhall, specially if they manage to spawn some superbarbs while killing animals.
Its a shame, really, about these spawns, cause they kinda suck away the fun. I always play on Huge maps with 20ish civs, but the number's been reduced to 10 by turn 180 just cause of the spawns, and every other civ is being held back by the constant threat. Might turn into a gigantic me v Bhall, specially if they manage to spawn some superbarbs while killing animals.
AFAIK Bhall would smash Cernunnos, since Cernunnos only have nerfed animals without the superspawns.
But the Bhall war with Cernunnos is a good idea. I think that WildMana has applied that mechanic to make the animals also fight with the barbs.
I do really think the cause of this spawns are the lack of requeriments of suchs units (Cannot be built by any civilization) for instance.
duh... why do you think I wrote
?
Gravage
Oh yeah.
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Expanding on the weird bugs - it seems to affect the Mazatl specifically. They're running around with Wyrmlings without casting their world spell, they've got several brass dragons, sea serpents and a mammoth rider whereas they don't have the techs/units/promotions needed to get them.
Edit: Oh, and Academy Training II gives 0.60 exp until 0 exp. Seems like a typo.
Edit: Oh, and Academy Training II gives 0.60 exp until 0 exp. Seems like a typo.
Actually, the weirdest thing I've saw from them is their Wyverns without the tech/worldspell.
Those other units you mentioned are easily catchable via "Subdue Animal" promo. (Sea serpents also catchable by Trirremes/galley).
They just need Animal Husbandry and a capable Scout/hunter(...) for that.
At all, IMO I don't think the Mazatl issue is caused by FallFurther. Still, MrUnderHill hasn't showed up about this subject.
Gravage
Oh yeah.
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Yeah, I meant Wyverns. But now, really, what are the odds of the Mazatl capturing several 12 str Brass Dragons before turn 200 on epic speed, where most wars are fought with archers, axemen and hunters? Very unlikely that they even got any unit with subdue animal promo, let alone beasts, or actually killing multiple high level units.
Also, I always play with 20 civs, meaning that the Mazatl are nearly always present, and the only time I've seen the issue is the single game I've started after installing this module.
Also, I always play with 20 civs, meaning that the Mazatl are nearly always present, and the only time I've seen the issue is the single game I've started after installing this module.
Actually Wyverns units CAN get "Subdue animal" promo (Check civilopedia). Animal Husbandry is an early tech, and the (Mazatl) AI seems to prefer teching first to Hunting (At least that's what they do in my game). So it makes sense for their Wyverns capturing Brass dragons and the like. I've seen that in my game too.
The only thing strange here is the Mazatl having Wyverns way before they'll are able to build them, so we must worry about that first.
MrUnderhill
Civ-loving Hobbit
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I haven't touched the Mazatl, so any bugs with them are either coming from RiFE or an unintended consequence of modular XML (like everything else). Could you give some concrete examples of the weirdness, like a saved game or a screenshot?
Yes, I have this pic: (Quote from ignored bug report [Always happens that there])
Check, they have Wyverns but at the same time, they lack the minimum tech to get them (Priesthood in order to Wyvern guardians, and then the worldspell)
here are some bug and balance/feedback :
-sometimes mage enclaves disappear, leaving only a tower-mage and a mana node, sometimes the node is of the type of the former mage tower, sometimes it is untaped.
-mage general are fun. But I'd rather have normal generals. As it is, they are a bad mix between potential archmages, and generals (they can't get arcanII, battleIII, ....Etc). + Amurites don't need caster so much, as spellswords, firebows, arcane riders can cast.
Well, I mean, at the beginning they are cool as you can have some channelingII unit quickly (but for any buff you already have the towermages. Thus they are only useful for AirII, Fireballs). But after that they are boring, they don't bring as much as a general and you don't really need the lvlI, lvlII casting ; And for the lvlIII : see further .
Thus, it would be better IMO if : 1 they can get lvlII but not lvlIII, can get some more general promotions.
-anima mages : they are powerful archmages, with nature affinity, and no need to levelup but no free promotion : I don't see the point of them.
I like their griffon/tiger summoning.
I dislike their lack of command, and lack of special wine/earthquake level spell
I dislike them being an easy archmage. (I don't know how you could do otherwise as govannon can still give them access to all lvl 1 spells...)
-what is the point of battlemages ? you can have so many lvlIII casters :
Govannon/Gaelan/each mage general/ 4 animamage that can themselves become lichs.
Anima mages are as strong as battlemages with mithril weapons ; battlemage only advantage is the spellstaff.. and they only have one (the issue is more with anima-mage and archmage-generals than with battlemage).
-silver weapons seem nice (if you don't get iron) but there is an issue : the "magic weapons" are bad.
I mean :
late game, spellswords and better units get mithril weapons (+4
) silver weapons give : +1strength : +10% vs iron. smaller boost than iron, very low compared to mithril
each "magic blade" does :
-only available to tier IV units : no help for the poor spellsword that chose a silver weapon instead of mithril weapons.
-remove silver weapons (loose the +1 strength),
-add affinity (you need 4 to be on pare with mithril ; 4 is huge ! as the amurites, you are generally trying to have many many different nodes to get more xp to your adepts, and more width of free level II/level III spell. + I like to have many body node to use the arcane riders appropriately ... then, having 4 other nodes of a kind is hard).
-add a -20% strength / or - 30% ... huge drawback. on a phalanx (12), with poison blade and 4 air nodes = 17 ; -20% is equal to .... -3 (less if some combat promotion counter the -20-30%)
so with air-weapons, sacrificing 4 nodes to air, your phalanx gained ... 1 ! more if you add some promotions but it is not so much more powerful than iron, and a far cry from mithril weapons.
It might be better if :
1) you keep the silver weapons +1strength)
2) you don't get a -x%strength.
3) ????
-magic academies are really cool, and IMO balanced.
-warders are real nice (but maybe their ability to build mage tower could be a promotion so they can still use it when they upgrade).
-latent chanelling is a real nice mechanism.
-I love arcane riders.
-siege mage are fun and cool. (I would still like to have a catapult or cannon somewhere to be able to have someone to buy the siege master craftsman tools.)
-tech changes are nice (especially the +96% from manas and the higher cost for religion techs)
-level needed for mobilityI and II is real nice,
-change for blitz from drill to mobility is cool. But can you change blitz from "armored cavalery to "military tactics" ? so it goes in another branche and you don't have to tech to knights before giving blitz to beastmasters (teching to heavy chariots for the mobilityII is hard enough IMO)
-wonders changes are good
- the graphic changes are nice.
other civs I didn't test, nor religions
-sometimes mage enclaves disappear, leaving only a tower-mage and a mana node, sometimes the node is of the type of the former mage tower, sometimes it is untaped.
-mage general are fun. But I'd rather have normal generals. As it is, they are a bad mix between potential archmages, and generals (they can't get arcanII, battleIII, ....Etc). + Amurites don't need caster so much, as spellswords, firebows, arcane riders can cast.
Well, I mean, at the beginning they are cool as you can have some channelingII unit quickly (but for any buff you already have the towermages. Thus they are only useful for AirII, Fireballs). But after that they are boring, they don't bring as much as a general and you don't really need the lvlI, lvlII casting ; And for the lvlIII : see further .
Thus, it would be better IMO if : 1 they can get lvlII but not lvlIII, can get some more general promotions.
-anima mages : they are powerful archmages, with nature affinity, and no need to levelup but no free promotion : I don't see the point of them.
I like their griffon/tiger summoning.
I dislike their lack of command, and lack of special wine/earthquake level spell
I dislike them being an easy archmage. (I don't know how you could do otherwise as govannon can still give them access to all lvl 1 spells...)
-what is the point of battlemages ? you can have so many lvlIII casters :
Govannon/Gaelan/each mage general/ 4 animamage that can themselves become lichs.
Anima mages are as strong as battlemages with mithril weapons ; battlemage only advantage is the spellstaff.. and they only have one (the issue is more with anima-mage and archmage-generals than with battlemage).
-silver weapons seem nice (if you don't get iron) but there is an issue : the "magic weapons" are bad.
I mean :
late game, spellswords and better units get mithril weapons (+4
) silver weapons give : +1strength : +10% vs iron. smaller boost than iron, very low compared to mithrileach "magic blade" does :
-only available to tier IV units : no help for the poor spellsword that chose a silver weapon instead of mithril weapons.
-remove silver weapons (loose the +1 strength),
-add affinity (you need 4 to be on pare with mithril ; 4 is huge ! as the amurites, you are generally trying to have many many different nodes to get more xp to your adepts, and more width of free level II/level III spell. + I like to have many body node to use the arcane riders appropriately ... then, having 4 other nodes of a kind is hard).
-add a -20% strength / or - 30% ... huge drawback. on a phalanx (12
), with poison blade and 4 air nodes = 17 ; -20% is equal to .... -3 (less if some combat promotion counter the -20-30%) so with air-weapons, sacrificing 4 nodes to air, your phalanx gained ... 1
! more if you add some promotions but it is not so much more powerful than iron, and a far cry from mithril weapons.It might be better if :
1) you keep the silver weapons +1strength)
2) you don't get a -x%strength.
3) ????
-magic academies are really cool, and IMO balanced.
-warders are real nice (but maybe their ability to build mage tower could be a promotion so they can still use it when they upgrade).
-latent chanelling is a real nice mechanism.
-I love arcane riders.
-siege mage are fun and cool. (I would still like to have a catapult or cannon somewhere to be able to have someone to buy the siege master craftsman tools.)
-tech changes are nice (especially the +96% from manas and the higher cost for religion techs)
-level needed for mobilityI and II is real nice,
-change for blitz from drill to mobility is cool. But can you change blitz from "armored cavalery to "military tactics" ? so it goes in another branche and you don't have to tech to knights before giving blitz to beastmasters (teching to heavy chariots for the mobilityII is hard enough IMO)
-wonders changes are good
- the graphic changes are nice.
other civs I didn't test, nor religions
MrUnderhill
Civ-loving Hobbit
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- Dec 6, 2005
- Messages
- 655
Thanks, Calavente! This is just the kind of feedback I need. I'll see what I can do with it the next time I get a break from homework. 
I haven't seen this yet. Does it only happen with human players or just the AI?
I haven't seen this yet. Does it only happen with human players or just the AI?
That's an idea, but since there are more arcane promotions than commander ones, it tends to be easier to give an arcane unit commander promotions than vice versa. I'll look into expanding the commander promotions they can pick up, though (you're right, they should at least have Arcane Mentor II; I thought they did already, but I'll check).
They're mostly there as an eventual upgrade for Warders and Planeswalkers. Now that you mention it, though, they could do with a strength nerf, to bring them in line with Battlemages. Maybe add a level requirement as well.
Battlemages were in base RiFE and aside from the weapon promotions I haven't really modified them too much. I'd love to hear suggestions for making them more unique, though.
All good ideas. I just wanted to keep the elemental affinities from getting too far out of hand. One fire node plus 3 academies of flame means you essentially have mithril weapons long before anyone else does; even worse if you decide to build more actual nodes. I'll cut back on the strength malus in the next version (only Blood and Mana weapons will get it, and then only -10%). Mana Weapons in particular are going to get an upgrade, namely in that they'll restore your ability to cast whenever you kill another Arcane unit. And since only Battlemages can get them, would that solve the problem you had up above?-silver weapons seem nice (if you don't get iron) but there is an issue : the "magic weapons" are bad.
I mean :
late game, spellswords and better units get mithril weapons (+4
each "magic blade" does :
-only available to tier IV units : no help for the poor spellsword that chose a silver weapon instead of mithril weapons.
-remove silver weapons (loose the +1 strength),
-add affinity (you need 4 to be on pare with mithril ; 4 is huge ! as the amurites, you are generally trying to have many many different nodes to get more xp to your adepts, and more width of free level II/level III spell. + I like to have many body node to use the arcane riders appropriately ... then, having 4 other nodes of a kind is hard).
-add a -20% strength / or - 30% ... huge drawback. on a phalanx (12
so with air-weapons, sacrificing 4 nodes to air, your phalanx gained ... 1
It might be better if :
1) you keep the silver weapons +1strength)
2) you don't get a -x%strength.
3) ????
Thanks. I think the warder issue has been fixed in the latest version (by letting every unit with channeling 1 be able to build mage towers). Have you tried that to see if it works?
As I think I've said before, I put it there on purpose so that the mounted line isn't as useless as it was before. Each step up the tech tree gives you both a new unit and a new promotion for your old ones, so in essence it helps your entire army to go down that line.
What I'd really like someone to test is are the new Empyrean upgrades. I was going for another method of running a specialist economy without Social Order or Sacrifice the Weak, but I'm not sure how balanced the free specialists mechanic is in regards to that.
I really love the changes this mod is bringing about, especially since I enjoy the magic themed civ and the Amurites needed some love imo. I am using the latest release of this mod (v1.6 I believe) with a clean RifE 1.3. So the only other mods that are enabled are Mekara and Chain of Command.
While I am excited about these changes, I find the mod to be unplayable due to the random barbarian spawns. I play on epic speed, large map, 10 civs or so. The barbarians start spawning after turn 100, and it only takes like 20 turns or so after that for multiple civs to get wiped out. The mobs I see are Vyrkul, Psions, Gnoslings, Elementals, Krakens, and a few other kinds (mostly mentioned already by others in this thread). They usually have a stack size of 4-5. For game options I have wildlands selected but no raging barbarian stuff.
I know that you are working on the problem and have a lot on your plate right now, but I was curious as to if you could release a separate version with only the Amurite changes in it (or maybe the religion ones also, so I could test those out). That way we could still test out the civ changes. I'm not sure if that would prevent the spawns or not, maybe those files are the ones triggering the crazy barbarian spawns, though I would have thought it would have been something else. Either way thanks for the very cool mod, and hopefully the problem gets fixed soon. Cheers.
While I am excited about these changes, I find the mod to be unplayable due to the random barbarian spawns. I play on epic speed, large map, 10 civs or so. The barbarians start spawning after turn 100, and it only takes like 20 turns or so after that for multiple civs to get wiped out. The mobs I see are Vyrkul, Psions, Gnoslings, Elementals, Krakens, and a few other kinds (mostly mentioned already by others in this thread). They usually have a stack size of 4-5. For game options I have wildlands selected but no raging barbarian stuff.
I know that you are working on the problem and have a lot on your plate right now, but I was curious as to if you could release a separate version with only the Amurite changes in it (or maybe the religion ones also, so I could test those out). That way we could still test out the civ changes. I'm not sure if that would prevent the spawns or not, maybe those files are the ones triggering the crazy barbarian spawns, though I would have thought it would have been something else. Either way thanks for the very cool mod, and hopefully the problem gets fixed soon. Cheers.
I had once again an enchantement mage enclave that disappeared with it's mage general, leaving a raw mana node. (so it happend at least 5 times in the same game out of 20+ mage enclaves in my empire, but some are more recent than others, and some are still mage towers.
for warders. I didn't try it lately, but a planeswalker/arcane rider (upgraded from apprentice) could build a mana tower in 275454164321 turns ; a bit more or a bit less. only arcane units and warders have a real number of turn for mana tower/mana node completion.
For Blitz : as I said, you already need to have the heavy chariot tech (warhorses?) to get the mobility II promotion. So IMO, changing blitz from heavy cavalry to military tactics won't mean you abandon the mounted line : you still need the pen-ultimate tech of the mounted line.
One side effect is that archery and melee can't get blitz as they are not allowed to get mobility II. I can't seem to decide if it's a good thing or a bad one. (archers with blitz were nice to have so you got many chances of defensive strikes).
For battlemage, my issue were not really with them, but with the fact that I don't feel interested to upgrade wizard in order to build them : I already have enough lvlIII casters without needing to nurture some wizard.
There are not enough specialization between anima-mage and battlemage and mage-general (that one is specialized but distrubes the lvl3 spells distribution) (plus those 3 units have the same icone as the tower mage).
So if the other mage general can't get lvl III and if anima-mages are taken more toward "nature" than magic or comes with arcane drawbacks : once again disciple instead of arcane + no free xp, a miscast chance for some spells, or no lvl 3 spells or ... (or maybe, with the next magic system, animamages could have cost reduction for life/nature/...etc spells, and higher costs for death/elements/mind...etc)
and/or if battlemage have a bonus : %chance twincast / give combatI to summoned units /
for warders. I didn't try it lately, but a planeswalker/arcane rider (upgraded from apprentice) could build a mana tower in 275454164321 turns ; a bit more or a bit less. only arcane units and warders have a real number of turn for mana tower/mana node completion.
For Blitz : as I said, you already need to have the heavy chariot tech (warhorses?) to get the mobility II promotion. So IMO, changing blitz from heavy cavalry to military tactics won't mean you abandon the mounted line : you still need the pen-ultimate tech of the mounted line.
One side effect is that archery and melee can't get blitz as they are not allowed to get mobility II. I can't seem to decide if it's a good thing or a bad one. (archers with blitz were nice to have so you got many chances of defensive strikes).
For battlemage, my issue were not really with them, but with the fact that I don't feel interested to upgrade wizard in order to build them : I already have enough lvlIII casters without needing to nurture some wizard.
There are not enough specialization between anima-mage and battlemage and mage-general (that one is specialized but distrubes the lvl3 spells distribution) (plus those 3 units have the same icone as the tower mage).
So if the other mage general can't get lvl III and if anima-mages are taken more toward "nature" than magic or comes with arcane drawbacks : once again disciple instead of arcane + no free xp, a miscast chance for some spells, or no lvl 3 spells or ... (or maybe, with the next magic system, animamages could have cost reduction for life/nature/...etc spells, and higher costs for death/elements/mind...etc)
and/or if battlemage have a bonus : %chance twincast / give combatI to summoned units /
Jheral
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2009
- Messages
- 502
With Secondary Unitcombats being added, one thing you might consider is making them have Melee as well; it would make them more viable as a combat unit, and it would fit thematically as well.
Sir Ironhart
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 18
Prophets of Winter can't seem to build Citadel of The Hand.
langrenly
Chieftain
Spoiler Changelog (Current Version: 1.6) :
