Fending off barbarians

[s.bernbaum]

Anybody know if BAT increases barbarians? I have always dealt with barbs fine. However, I just installed BAT and in my first BAT mod game the barbs are suddenly coming out of the woodwork! Is this just one of those RNG bad luck deals or does BAT increase the barbs?

 

[Manco Capac]

I've never seen barbs use ships to transport troops at least. That's not to say it can't happen though, it might just be extremely rare.

Barb cities can build ships, and they will occasionally load these with units:

Spoiler :

They do not spawn like this though.

Amphibious barbarian invasions are usually a consequence of utter neglect about some barb cities. Although I have not felt such situations at all yet (because it is indeed rare and it has a reason to be), I have seen mentions of this bizarrerie from other players in the past. Best explanation I found (since I can't check what I haven't seen myself) comes from barb cities. First, barb galleys that spawn are a complete different beast from barb galleys built in barb cities. A matter of unit script. Spawning barb galleys are agressive units that never load any units. UNITAI_SEA_ATTACK (IIRC). Whereas rare barb galleys from cities (hence the utter neglect part if you still see barb cities by 1000 AD and over) are scripted UNITAI_SEA_ASSAULT, which makes the unit a transport for sea assault. Given barb team techs and produces builds at a very very slow pace, it is not unusual to see those amphibious invasion about >1000 AD. Amphibious units and barb galley were all produced by a city.

Again, neglect. Probably because I'm a micro maniac is the why I never saw those kind of funky behaviours.

Interesting the resurgence of barb threads, but if people took little effort into it, I bet you could know all about barbs and their behaviours.

BTW, to make a global assertion: barb units from cities are different from barb units from spawning. Land units or not. It boils down to different birth script.

EDIT: Oh my! Big sorries to Doshin. I haven't seen he knew the origins of assault barb galleys.

 

[Ghpstage]

@Kjotleik

For certain, a way not to make it harder is by nerfing culture defenses into oblivion. That will just make rushing a no brainer, early capitals at 4% defense will be easy targets for, well, anything.
With that you might even see Warrior rushes on Deity working!

The change that really give players the advantage comes from the number of turns, it results in units moving 3 times as fast and allows for far larger gains from micromanagement.
I don't really see what changes you can make, but this would need to be the target area to have a real impact.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Yup, here is some more annoyingness for ya:

Spoiler :

Barb LB from a barb boat. Started a thread on that messed-up game many moons ago.

 

[Manco Capac]

Wait...oh it was you! I seemingly recognize this screenshot.

 

[Kjotleik]

@Kjotleik

For certain, a way not to make it harder is by nerfing culture defenses into oblivion. That will just make rushing a no brainer, early capitals at 4% defense will be easy targets for, well, anything.
With that you might even see Warrior rushes on Deity working!

The change that really give players the advantage comes from the number of turns, it results in units moving 3 times as fast and allows for far larger gains from micromanagement.
I don't really see what changes you can make, but this would need to be the target area to have a real impact.

I see your point with easier rush on low cultural defense... It seems I didn't manage to think of THAT side of the coin when I posted. What I had on my mind was that the AI usually builds Walls anyways - and now the human player would have a reason to build them as well...

From the rest of your post I presume you mean that if I can reduce the effectiveness of roads/railroads, and the movement of units to ONE for all, then the difficulty of Marathon would be closer to Normal than it is right now...

The last bit would be easy, but I have no idea if it is possible to reduce the effectiveness of roads/railroads?

Thanks for replying, by the way. I'm glad for any input I can get...


Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[Ghpstage]

From the rest of your post I presume you mean that if I can reduce the effectiveness of roads/railroads, and the movement of units to ONE for all, then the difficulty of Marathon would be closer to Normal than it is right now...

The last bit would be easy, but I have no idea if it is possible to reduce the effectiveness of roads/railroads?

If only it was that easy!
These changes would lead to large balance issues, for example 1 move speed for all units would render mounted units pretty much useless.
and reducing the impact of roads would primarily impact wars in the defenders territory, slowing down defence movements would push balance more toward the invader.

The former I doubt would hurt the player much as the player will know about it and simply not build mounted, the latter would make defense a little harder but the player can adatpt to that, and the weaker AI defence.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Did I read too fast or didn't anybody mention the Heroic Epic?
Heroic Epic needs be mentioned in a Barbarian thread!

Allow me: Heroic Epic!
Barbs are the easiest, earliest and most painless way to unlock the HE.
Unless gunning for early wonders, Player should be eager to feed on barbs and unlock that VINW (Very Important National Wonder). The more barbs there are, the easier it is: win-win.

Treshold: Inland Sea from Immortal level. At that point, barbarians can hinder expansion. Well, at least they capture my cities.

 

[Kjotleik]

If only it was that easy!
These changes would lead to large balance issues, for example 1 move speed for all units would render mounted units pretty much useless.
and reducing the impact of roads would primarily impact wars in the defenders territory, slowing down defence movements would push balance more toward the invader.

The former I doubt would hurt the player much as the player will know about it and simply not build mounted, the latter would make defense a little harder but the player can adatpt to that, and the weaker AI defence.

Again, you seem to have valid points I need to consider... hmmm...

I think I will have to open a new thread... This is not even close to the discussion of Barbarians...! Sorry for the going off-course...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[lowreyj]

Anybody know if BAT increases barbarians? I have always dealt with barbs fine. However, I just installed BAT and in my first BAT mod game the barbs are suddenly coming out of the woodwork! Is this just one of those RNG bad luck deals or does BAT increase the barbs?

Don't know about BAT, but you might simply go into "custom scenario" or "custom game" and check the barb settings.
I find barbarians pretty annoying, so always make sure that "raging barbarians" isn't checked; heck, if you want, you can select "no barbarians," which I sometimes do in modern historical scenarios if it hasn't already been done

 

[reddishrecue]

Did I read too fast or didn't anybody mention the Heroic Epic?
Heroic Epic needs be mentioned in a Barbarian thread!

Allow me: Heroic Epic!
Barbs are the easiest, earliest and most painless way to unlock the HE.
Unless gunning for early wonders, Player should be eager to feed on barbs and unlock that VINW (Very Important National Wonder). The more barbs there are, the easier it is: win-win.

Treshold: Inland Sea from Immortal level. At that point, barbarians can hinder expansion. Well, at least they capture my cities.

That's a good point. HE is a very good national wonder for victory. Taking suicidal barbarians for Heroic Epic is worth it.

Edit: The only thing bad about barbarian killing is the lack of Great General experience.

 

[Drakarska]

Agreed. RB is usually good for at least a lvl 4 uni. Pop HE in your MilSpec city, and your ready to Gandhi's day.

 

[Kallikrates]

Now I am confused!
I thought units could only get limited XP from fights with barbs, so never enough for getting to HE? Am I simply wrong or has this been changed between vanilla/warlords/BtS or patches?

 

[Ghpstage]

Now I am confused!
I thought units could only get limited XP from fights with barbs, so never enough for getting to HE? Am I simply wrong or has this been changed between vanilla/warlords/BtS or patches?

The limit is 10XP from barb human units, exactly enough to allow you to build the HE

 

[Kallikrates]

Thanks! I might have confused it with the limited xp from early animals.

 

[Jeros]

I just ensure I have the great wall now, playing on huge maps I am normally far enough away from other civs to be able to relax for a bit behind my wall and tend to the fields and develop my cities without fear of being barbed to death.

Without the great wall, esp if I start in the middleish of a landmass you can end up with barbs coming from all directions and that can overwhelm your army and forcing you to divert precious hammers form more useful early game endeavors depending on how you play.

Question however, after I build the great wall, and another city of mine connects to my borders or the borders around the great wall expand. Does the effect of the great wall count for those tiles or just the ones it encompasses when its built?

 

[Ghpstage]

The great wall works for all of your cultural territory on the continent its built (it doesn't stop galleys though obviously ). If you learn to spawnbust then you will find that wonder to be a total waste of for barb protection unless your playing on big maps and/or marathon

 

[reddishrecue]

The great wall works for all of your cultural territory on the continent its built (it doesn't stop galleys though obviously ). If you learn to spawnbust then you will find that wonder to be a total waste of for barb protection unless your playing on big maps and/or marathon

The extra +2 Great Spy points also makes this wonder better. An early extra +2 Great Spy points wouldn't hurt.

 

[Willem]

The extra +2 EPs from the Great Wall also makes this wonder better. An early extra +2 EPs wouldn't hurt.

You mean GP points right? You also get an additional 100% bonus to Great General production withing your cultural borders. And it never becomes obsolete. So the wonder isn't quite as useless as Ghpstage seems to think it is. The problem with it though is that it's a favourite Wonder of the AI, so there's always a good chance that you might lose out to some other civ. And then it does become a waste of Hammers.

 

[reddishrecue]

You mean GP points right? You also get an additional 100% bonus to Great General production withing your cultural borders. And it never becomes obsolete. So the wonder isn't quite as useless as Ghpstage seems to think it is. The problem with it though is that it's a favourite Wonder of the AI, so there's always a good chance that you might lose out to some other civ. And then it does become a waste of Hammers.

I meant +2 Great Spy Points for non-philosophical leaders, and if you don't get the wonder you at least take the $$ for early and faster expansion.