fertalized embreyos in clinics ruled as human

[FearlessLeader2]

How fortunate then, that your particular likes or dislikes have little bearing on how women act anyway.

It is not your choice, you have no say unless you are the father.
But in this case, you are the stranger, the third party.

And you can scream that to your heavens, but the fact does not change.

Your morals are yours alone, everyone choose their own.

.......

I'm confused Curt. I state that this is a matter of choice for everyone, and reflect on how society in general, and myself in particular would regard each choice, and you react in a way that implies that I am seeking to force a choice one way or the other.

All I did was say it was a matter of choice, and then state an opinion.


I disagree with you on this topic, I get your ire. I agree with you on this topic, I get your ire. Mia confuse.

 

[Birdjaguar]

But would you sacrifice your life tomorrow if it kept a woman stranger from having an abortion?

You're going to have to flesh this out before I can answer. What are the circumstances?

Would you sacrifice your life (quick & painless, organ body part donation, whatever reason or manner you choose) if it would guarantee that a woman you don't know would not have an abortion she was planning on and would carry the child to term? You rant on about the value of the life of a fetus and praise women who sacrifice themselves for their children. Clearly you put the life of the unborn above that of adults other than yourself.

 

[cgannon64]

BirdJaguar, you're asking him to answer a pretty crazy hypothetical.

Would you sacrifice your life for a total stranger? I mean, sure, in principle, but would you really?

 

[Birdjaguar]

BirdJaguar, you're asking him to answer a pretty crazy hypothetical.

Would you sacrifice your life for a total stranger? I mean, sure, in principle, but would you really?

Yes it is, but he posted two scenarios previously in which he judged two mothers on the level of sacrifice for their children and deemed particular responses as better. In other posts he seemed to put a higher value on the life of the unborn than existing lives. The idea of scarifice runs through his posts and it is probably important to him. My question seeks to stake out a boundary (maybe0 for his views on it. I do not doubt FF2's sincerity about his beliefs and I'm sure he will post his true feelings.

My answer to the same question is "no". I would not willingly sacrifice my life to save an an unborn stranger. For me that would be shirking my responsibility to my existing family.

 

[cgannon64]

Even if the stranger was born, I meant.

My point is that asking someone to sacrifice their life for a total stranger (who they consider human, whether you do or not) is a question which, if answered honestly, would probably be no, even if the person is very noble.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Even if the stranger was born, I meant.

My point is that asking someone to sacrifice their life for a total stranger (who they consider human, whether you do or not) is a question which, if answered honestly, would probably be no, even if the person is very noble.

I know that is what you meant. I wanted to be very specific because this is a thread about abortion. This piece of the question is really a very small one, but an interesting nuance.

The question I really want him to answer, and I think its in the other thread, is the one about whether or not miscarried and aborted fetuses go to heaven. If I were a christian, that would be the most critical question. Christianity revolves around salvation and if having an abortion effects salvation then it is a very important question.

 

[cgannon64]

An interesting question, though you sound like the people in the Middle Ages who got triple like limbo invented. (Not the ones who invented it, but the people who bugged the Church until they had to come up with something on the spot.)

How anyone can think that original sin trumps the innocence of a child is beyond me.

 

[Birdjaguar]

An interesting question, though you sound like the people in the Middle Ages who got triple like limbo invented. (Not the ones who invented it, but the people who bugged the Church until they had to come up with something on the spot.)

How anyone can think that original sin trumps the innocence of a child is beyond me.

I would agree, but if you assert that god accepts such lost babies into heaven, then what happens to the abortion argument?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Well, it looks like I've got two questions to answer then. For your hypothetical aborted stranger question, I'm going to go with 'No, I would not.' I can't think of anyone that would sacrifice their life for a total stranger without some other powerful incentive to do so, like being already dying of a termianl disease. Oh, okay; if I had cancer and was expected to be dead in a week, sure, I'd do it then, why not?

As to your question about aborted babies' spiritual fates, I did answer it. I said that the same thing happens to them as happens to anyone who dies. RE "I would agree, but if you assert that god accepts such lost babies into heaven, then what happens to the abortion argument?" , absolutely nothing. The argument still stands.

For the record, I don't assert that lost babies are accepted into heaven, but that's because I don't think hardly anyone goes to heaven. From the time of Jesus' death to the final battle at Armageddon, only 144,000 people will go to heaven. The rest will simply die, and be resurrected after Armageddon to judgement or to eternal life on earth after it has been restored to Eden-like conditions. (Just like it says in the Bible.)

I will go out on a limb and offer the following theory about aborted babies post-Revelations:

Fact: According to the Bible, there will a 1,000 year reign by Christ after Armageddon in which Satan will be allowed to walk the earth in physical form to tempt any he can into following him, while the people of earth enjoy life the way it was meant to be lived, with perfect health on a perfect earth.

Theory: I would surmise that it is during this 1,000-year reign that those babies will be resurrected to be raised by those who are resurrected as adults (IE died as adults) and then given the opportunity to live and choose to follow God or Satan. This is not written anywhere in the Scriptures, so it may be leagues from God's actual intentions, but it seems like a reasonable assumption on my part. If such is the case, it may take centuries for all of the aborted children to be 'born' and raised if family sizes are kept at even Dark Ages sizes (10-15 kids per couple).

(It goes without saying that nothing a faithful person says is reasonable to one without faith, so let's just leave it assumed that all the atheists on the board thinkknow I'm stark raving mad.)

If I am wrong, which is a very real possibility, and abortion/murder is an express ticket to eternal life on a paradise earth, I still violently and strenuously object to its practice.

Why?! Why?!? Because it's barmy murder!! Gaah!!

 

[Birdjaguar]

As to your question about aborted babies' spiritual fates, I did answer it. I said that the same thing happens to them as happens to anyone who dies. RE "I would agree, but if you assert that god accepts such lost babies into heaven, then what happens to the abortion argument?" , absolutely nothing. The argument still stands.

If I am wrong, which is a very real possibility, and abortion/murder is an express ticket to eternal life on a paradise earth, I still violently and strenuously object to its practice.

Why?! Why?!? Because it's barmy murder!! Gaah!!

Thanks FF2, that was a clear explanation. I had forgotten that your sect limits heaven to a select few. I do think that christians your group, as well as others of a more mainstream variety, must look at the abortion question in terms of the salvation. It is the single purpose of christianity; the reason Jesus died. All human acts should be judged in light of the impact those deeds have on salvation of the "doer" and the "done to". If our actions do not affect our salvation, and we will be judged by faith alone, then maybe morality should come off the table.

If one has faith are all your acts acceptable to god? Or does a single bad act undo ones faith? Is faith an all or nothing proposition in gods eyes? If a professed christian cheats on his wife, how does that impact on the measure of his faith?

Now if aborted babies come back to a pre fall world, and they skip the hell of our earth, is that a bad thing? How does having an abortion effect the salvation of the mother who decided to have the abortion? If it condems her to hell, is not her sacrifice for her unborn child greater then the sacrifice of the mother who merely puts her child on a raft to face battle with wolves? What is the likely fate of a baby on a raft in a river? As a christian, why wouldn't you do everythig you could to ensure your offspring a favorable place in gods future?

I do not understand how you reconcile god's plan for salvation with an abortion is "a murderous evil" position.

 

[blackheart]

I don't think stem cells or fertilized embryos are humans. It's a matter of religious belief, since I think they don't have a soul yet.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I don't think stem cells or fertilized embryos are humans. It's a matter of religious belief, since I think they don't have a soul yet.

Welcome to this thread blackheart. In buddhism, when does the soul enter the fetus? It's nice to have another non christian perspective.

 

[cgannon64]

I would agree, but if you assert that god accepts such lost babies into heaven, then what happens to the abortion argument?

I don't think anyone would accept that its right to kill a baby if it would still get into Heaven. No one accepts that its right to kill a man as he's walking out of Confession

 

[blackheart]

Welcome to this thread blackheart. In buddhism, when does the soul enter the fetus? It's nice to have another non christian perspective.

Thanks. That depends on who you ask. Some say after the baby is born, some say a few weeks, some say a few months. I personally believe around 6 or 7 months.

 

[ybbor]

Thanks. That depends on who you ask. Some say after the baby is born, some say a few weeks, some say a few months. I personally believe around 6 or 7 months.

so i can kill it 5 monthes after it's born?

 

[Birdjaguar]

so i can kill it 5 monthes after it's born?

As a christian, what would a life be prior to receiving its soul? Would it be like a dog or cat? Or snake or spider?

 

[Gif Warrior]

As a christian, what would a life be prior to receiving its soul? Would it be like a dog or cat? Or snake or spider?

There is no single Christian answer to that. The churches that i have gone to believe there is a soul at conception other churches believe otherwise all the way up to birth as far as I have heard. Of course when Christians disagree on a major point we most of the time feel that the other person isnt a "true" Christian.

 

[Birdjaguar]

There is no single Christian answer to that. The churches that i have gone to believe there is a soul at conception other churches believe otherwise all the way up to birth as far as I have heard. Of course when Christians disagree on a major point we most of the time feel that the other person isnt a "true" Christian.

Yes, such disagreements complicate things. If I were a christian, the answer to this question would certainly have an impact on how I felt about abortion. IIRC, the bible does not directly answer this question and so it has been left the the various churches to piece together an answer.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I can quote Biblical passages that strongly support conception, or even ova and sperm, as life in God's eyes. The Levite prohibition against masturbation, a passage in Job which refers to God seeing him as an embreyo, and the reaction of the unborn John the Baptist when his mother neared Mary while she was pregnant with Jesus are all strong statements in this regard.

And no, faith alone is insufficient, one must demonstrate that faith with works, or it is dead. "Faith without works is dead."

 

[Birdjaguar]

I can quote Biblical passages that strongly support conception, or even ova and sperm, as life in God's eyes. The Levite prohibition against masturbation, a passage in Job which refers to God seeing him as an embreyo, and the reaction of the unborn John the Baptist when his mother neared Mary while she was pregnant with Jesus are all strong statements in this regard.

And no, faith alone is insufficient, one must demonstrate that faith with works, or it is dead. "Faith without works is dead."

Of course its all life, but so are dogs, cats and shrimp. And if the soul enters the unborn at 12 weeks, or even 24 weeks, that supports your biblical meeting between Mary and John's mom. "Strongly support" simply means human interpretation for what is not clearly stated. And if it's interpreted by people, then my interpretation is just as good as anyone else's.

In your faith, how is an "unsouled" fetus different from an embryonic cow or any animal in the wild, for that matter?