FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[MiKa523]

Imho the little commerce bonus is fine for the Malakim.
Instead of making them elves/illians like by giving desert food output, I'd rather like to see improved mapscripts.
I mean, the Malakim usually don't have food problem unless you are playing erebus and are put into a huge desert area, so why change them for one single mapscript.
"Simply" add some more rivers and flood plains to the desert area of erebus maps.

 

[KingOfLands]

Imho the little commerce bonus is fine for the Malakim.
Instead of making them elves/illians like by giving desert food output, I'd rather like to see improved mapscripts.
I mean, the Malakim usually don't have food problem unless you are playing erebus and are put into a huge desert area, so why change them for one single mapscript.
"Simply" add some more rivers and flood plains to the desert area of erebus maps.

Not a bad idea; makes the deserts more useful to everyone else as well.

 

[Schmoe]

I think the Arcane trait needs a bit of a boost. It only affects one class of units, which is only available later in the game, and it provides no economic benefits. Summoner seems to be, by far, the more powerful of the mage-boosting traits.

In another thread, someone suggested providing Arcane leaders with double the passive benefits from Mana types. So, for example, one Mind mana would provide a 6% research boost for an Arcane leader.

Personally, I love the suggestion and think it would definitely make Arcane a more interesting trait.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Gotta agree with Schmoe, or at least whoever he was agreeing with. Double boosts from Mana would be a very good chance.

1) More incentive to get mana nodes
2) Up tweak in balance

What isn't to love?

 

[Fafnir13]

On Malakim:
-Let them use deserts like roads.
-Let them build special buildings (like the Lanun pirate cove).

Remember that no civ is supposed to be tied strongly to any one terrain type. The Malakim really do need a bit more to seem truly special, but let's not overdo it.

On Magic:
-Stack damage=win
-Something more complex then "nerf stack damage" needs to be done otherwise:
-Mass stack=win

AI's are especially good at mass stack. Is there really any proper way to defeat stacks upwards of 60 units without resorting to stack damage? What is the balance goal? Making magic immunity a bit more accessable for mid-rank units would be a good start. Mass stack would still win then, but at least it would be specialized mass stack.

On Tsunami:
-Can destroy your own improvements on defense.
-Requires careful troop movements to avoid hurting your own guys and allies.
-Extremely map sensitive.

I've had games where my armies of cultists and stygian guards could sweep the world. I've had games where all they could do was sit on the coast and pout. OO is one of the few items in the game where it truly does rule over it's own element but only its element. If you think you tsunami in particular is overpowered, you're just getting a false positive off of stack damage in genera which, as mentioned above, =win.

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

I'd like to report a small balance problem I've encountered while playing a nice epic-timescale game under 2.40 patch-n. The ability to upgrade archers to horse archers has really screwed the AI's ability to defend itself for a brief period of time. Usually the AI civs hit stirrups before bowyers, at which point they upgrade all of their city defenders (archers) to horse archers. As horse archers get no terrain defense bonuses, cannot withdraw from city battles, and get no inherit +city defense %bonus this does make rolling the AI a bit easier during this window of opportunity.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I think it would make sence if all non AV civilizations got a diplomacy penalty against the Shaeim and Infernals depending on the AC.

In addition,I believe Infernals should get a diplomacy benefit with the Shaeim and vice-versa. And give them more chances to be allied. They share a common goal.

 

[blacknight]

Two ideas that have been suggested before for the Malakim are to give them a desert bonus that does not require working the plot.

Idea 1 - Cities get +1 commerce from each desert tile in its BFC. This is a straight bonus to the city that does not require the desert be worked.

Idea 2 - Cities get +1 trade route for every two deserts in the BFC.

These ideas flavor the Malakim towards liking the desert more than other civs but still keeping deserts as barren place no one wants to work.

 

[Gul'dan]

I wish to point out two balancing issues that were greatly aggravated by the changes in the research costs. I dunno if I am right here so if I should utter my concerns elsewhere just say so.

1. The priests of winter come a little earlier and last much longer (due to the much later champions). They have been imba ever since due to their insane strength of 7, auto-xp and strength 5 ice-elementals (with time they crack just about any city defense around turn 120, being turn 100 for others due to stasis).
Possible solutions:
a) Shift the ritual to fanatism. It's worth it.
b) Weaken the Priests (game would lose a lot of "flavour")
c) Greatly increase Hammer costs of ritual
d) Connect a negative effect to the ritual (e.g. large diplomatic malus "you revive the lore of the god of stasis" or whatever)

2. AV becomes even more insane compared to any other path: Get AV, go for Fanatism, when it takes you 15 turns to complete it, switch to the demonic pact, after you have it, immediately build the grimoire and resume fanatism, get Demon-Tech with grimoire = Mardero + 4 Agares-Beasts before turn 250. Due to cost increase on champions this becomes highly problematic (all numbers on highest difficulty):
Champions: 2800 + 4550 = 7350
AV: 630 + 525 + 490 + 1400 = 3045
Fana+Pact: 1400 + 560 + 3150 + 2100 = 7210
->roughly 3000 res + build time = 15 + 5 turns after other players get champions, you have Mardero (ST:14), 4 Agares-Beasts (ST:16) and some of the insane AV priests. And then for a loooooooooooong time champions will be the strongest challenge coming across. Note additionally that with AV+Priest-tech (=4445 res-points) you get champion-strength units which are only 3/4 the cost, as you can heal(!) diseased corpses.
Possible solutions:
a) Delete the grimoire. It is imba and sucks.
b) Completely change the grimoire (e.g. you can cast a random "demonic" spell every 10 turns, always with the slight risk of it going badly wrong, i.e. barbarian demon. That would make it clearly a Hyborem-Wonder because of his peace with barbs, which I would consider a good "flavour change")
c) Change Grimoire gradually (e.g. it gives 5000 free tech points, that's roughly the points you invest to get there, which can be used to get ~40% of the demon-tech or if you like can get you a number of cheaper techs you can skip before to get AV even faster)

Otherwise I really appreciate the changes, as they
a) slightly weaken the lanun,
b) greatly balance the svart starting-tech-advantage,
c) give sheaim a little edge by increasing the importance of pyre zombies and giving them time to get their ****ing expensive portals,
d) giving the calabim an edge, as their vamps now come well in advance of the former dreaded champs (with higher base strength),
e) make the rangers no longer obsolete,
f) make bow-riders an option, thus strengthening the Hippus-Horselords,
g) make the priests valuable beyond their casting abilities as they now come well in advance of champs.

I dunno how much of these often very heavy balancing changes were intended. Just wanted to point out some (there are lots more, I have not yet analysed) of them.

 

[Gul'dan]

Some (probably) bug exploits:

1. Upgrade an AV-priest to an Eidolon. You get an insane firering Eidolon of doom.
2. Upgrade a vampiric unit to an Eidolon. You get an even more insane Vampiric Eidolon of doom with infinite XP.
3. Combine 1&2.
4. Use missionary "great building" to put down unrest.
5. Build beast of Agares and 4.
6. Use an AV-Priest to heal(!) a diseased corpse. (maybe undead should be immune to this spell?)
7. Horselord mimic, covert nationality mimic, heroic strength mimic, etc. And now: Combine -> Holy Crap what have we created? The most insane immortals EVER!

 

[Gul'dan]

Another cute bug exploit:

Spells of level 2 and 3 don't need Focus. Kill a mage (or archmage) with a mimic and you might be luckily enabled to cast a level 2 or 3 spell. How to kill a mage? Simply kill an assassin first. Get the point?

Besides, also focus and "magically skilled" promotion can be stolen. (Thank the gods the "enlightened" promotion can't be stolen...)

 

[Zechnophobe]

Some (probably) bug exploits:

1. Upgrade an AV-priest to an Eidolon. You get an insane firering Eidolon of doom.
2. Upgrade a vampiric unit to an Eidolon. You get an even more insane Vampiric Eidolon of doom with infinite XP.
3. Combine 1&2.
4. Use missionary "great building" to put down unrest.
5. Build beast of Agares and 4.
6. Use an AV-Priest to heal(!) a diseased corpse. (maybe undead should be immune to this spell?)
7. Horselord mimic, covert nationality mimic, heroic strength mimic, etc. And now: Combine -> Holy Crap what have we created? The most insane immortals EVER!

1. Feature
2. Feature
3. Feature
4. Feature
5. There is no 5?
6. I'm not sure about this one, it *may* be a bug, for some reason I recall that not being the case though.
7. Feature... this is what mimics do. They have a stronger 'high end' but they start out weak.

 

[hiphopin]

Nooo!!! Don't nerf magic again!

I think that allowing more non-magical alternatives is a much better approach. For starters, letting Archers(/horse archers) and Siege units have ranged attacks like in FF. Of course, I think only one unit should have lethal ranged attacks: Marksmen. That would turn a normally overpriced near useless unit in t an awesome one, as it could kill without risking its like at all (if its stack is well defended).

Also, I'm thinking Magic Resistance should give a combat boost against arcane units just like shock does against melee. I suppose I'm open to splitting it into two levels and having one of them come sooner too.

Thank you, those are spot on. Exactly what this mod needs.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

2. AV becomes even more insane compared to any other path: Get AV, go for Fanatism, when it takes you 15 turns to complete it, switch to the demonic pact, after you have it, immediately build the grimoire and resume fanatism, get Demon-Tech with grimoire = Mardero + 4 Agares-Beasts before turn 250. Due to cost increase on champions this becomes highly problematic (all numbers on highest difficulty):
Champions: 2800 + 4550 = 7350
AV: 630 + 525 + 490 + 1400 = 3045
Fana+Pact: 1400 + 560 + 3150 + 2100 = 7210
->roughly 3000 res + build time = 15 + 5 turns after other players get champions, you have Mardero (ST:14), 4 Agares-Beasts (ST:16) and some of the insane AV priests. And then for a loooooooooooong time champions will be the strongest challenge coming across. Note additionally that with AV+Priest-tech (=4445 res-points) you get champion-strength units which are only 3/4 the cost, as you can heal(!) diseased corpses.
Possible solutions:
a) Delete the grimoire. It is imba and sucks.
b) Completely change the grimoire (e.g. you can cast a random "demonic" spell every 10 turns, always with the slight risk of it going badly wrong, i.e. barbarian demon. That would make it clearly a Hyborem-Wonder because of his peace with barbs, which I would consider a good "flavour change")
c) Change Grimoire gradually (e.g. it gives 5000 free tech points, that's roughly the points you invest to get there, which can be used to get ~40% of the demon-tech or if you like can get you a number of cheaper techs you can skip before to get AV even faster)

In the time it takes you to research corruption of spirit, infernal pact, and fanaticism, I can research Honor and religious law, and get a hero that can weaken even high tier units like beasts, eidolons and Mardero to the point where I can hack them down execution style with bronze swordsmen. And I'll have more troops than you because you spent a bunch of hammers on the grimorie and I didn't. And some of them will be able to paralyze the enemy army.

Even with that cute tech slingshot, AV is still second fiddle by a long shot at best as a combat religion.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

1. The priests of winter come a little earlier and last much longer (due to the much later champions). They have been imba ever since due to their insane strength of 7, auto-xp and strength 5 ice-elementals (with time they crack just about any city defense around turn 120, being turn 100 for others due to stasis).

Actually, when I played as Illians, I found the priests to be the only useful troops I had at that time. Remember they are only 3 and you cannot build any more. I did not read anything about you arguing that the 3 hill giants comming with the Pact of Nilhorn are too powerful and that the wonder should be shifted to X technology...

The Illians are weak early game. I think their priests should be tough. Their early spells are uselless, and Ice elementals are the weakest sort I have seen(exept for a freshly build Flesh Elemental).

 

[Gul'dan]

Additional info on the numbers above: Large map, normal speed.

In the time it takes you to research corruption of spirit, infernal pact, and fanaticism, I can research Honor and religious law, and get a hero that can weaken even high tier units like beasts, eidolons and Mardero to the point where I can hack them down execution style with bronze swordsmen. And I'll have more troops than you because you spent a bunch of hammers on the grimorie and I didn't. And some of them will be able to paralyze the enemy army.

Even with that cute tech slingshot, AV is still second fiddle by a long shot at best as a combat religion.

I dunno what should impress be about chalid. His base strength of 9? (Remember, that AV priest damage all your units by 40%!) His capability to summon at best a base strength 6 unit per turn? (Remember priests have heal 2?) His ability to "stun if he is lucky (30% resistence) when I am in the tile right next to him"? Remember that your units don't have weapons (Mardero has Entropy 1). Besides you pay for chalid
1225 + 525 + 1400 + 560 + 4200 = 7910.
So this costs you more than champs. How do you believe can chalid "weaken even high tier units like beasts, eidolons and Mardero to the point where I can hack them down execution style"? I just don't get it.

As for the hammer cost: Grimoire costs me 400 Hammers. It's ****ing cheap! Thats only 100 more than your hero. My AV units are produced halfway by sacrificing pop (supported by StW), so they are cheaper than yours. I get diseased corpses (champ strength, cost 3/4 of a champ) en passant, yielding a decent backbone for my army. As soon as I get my hands on iron, i get 4 Flamering Eidolons in addition.

I simply don't seem to get your point.

 

[Grey Fox]

I think it's more the Pillar of Flames he is after with it's 80% damage cap.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

@ Monkeyfinger & Gul'dan
OK. I am confused here. Just try it in multiplayer and tell us who won

 

[Iceciro]

Remember, if you build your army out of Diseased Corpses, it's a simple matter to use Pillar of Flame + Destroy Undead from a life 2 mage to shatter your whole force.

 

[orgonebox]

I started a thread on this, but thought it should be mentioned here:

Allow archery line march, same as melee, to make up for the removed heal rates of Combat IV and V.

I realize the obvious strategic alternative before the change still applies, which is to build a thane/acolyte/cultist etc to troop along with the army.