TC01
Deity
Are you sure the full download of FF+ was installed to the correct directory? In "F:\Games\Sid Meier's Civilization IV\Beyond the Sword\Mods" (assuming that's the path), is there a Final Frontier Plus folder? How big is the folder?
Final Frontier Plus
- Thread starter TC01
- Start date
Are you sure the full download of FF+ was installed to the correct directory? In "F:\Games\Sid Meier's Civilization IV\Beyond the Sword\Mods" (assuming that's the path), is there a Final Frontier Plus folder? How big is the folder?
I used these files:
Final Frontier Plus 1.62 Full Download.zip
final_frontier_plus_1_63_patch_setup.zip
I attached output of dir/s for Final Frontier Plus folder, folder structure looks normal to me.
Final Frontier Plus 1.62 Full Download.zip
final_frontier_plus_1_63_patch_setup.zip
yes
130 MB (136,974,779 bytes)
I attached output of dir/s for Final Frontier Plus folder, folder structure looks normal to me.
TC01
Deity
Hmm, someone else is reporting a similar problem in the bug thread, with a Steam install. It looks like this is due to running the mod with a nonstandard installation. What I can't figure out is why...
I tested the full download and it worked on my computer, but I have a standard install. Does just the full download work, without patch 1.63?
The only thing I know about GFC errors is that they're due to incorrect installations... unfortunately, if one of the installers is screwed up then all installations will be incorrect.
I tested the full download and it worked on my computer, but I have a standard install. Does just the full download work, without patch 1.63?
The only thing I know about GFC errors is that they're due to incorrect installations... unfortunately, if one of the installers is screwed up then all installations will be incorrect.
TC01
Deity
Well, we found the bug there (as you might have noticed). I'll post a patch very soon.
TC01
Deity
Okay, I've posted the 1.64 patch. It fixes GFC errors that were caused by not having Final Frontier installed.
As such, it's really only useful if you are running the full download version.
Well, actually, I also fixed the desktop icon problem (but that's related to the installer itself, not the mod). So the 1.64 patch should actually make an icon with a graphic on it now.
And... looks like the patch got hit by download spamming or something? It's now at 10,000 plus downloads...
As such, it's really only useful if you are running the full download version.
Well, actually, I also fixed the desktop icon problem (but that's related to the installer itself, not the mod). So the 1.64 patch should actually make an icon with a graphic on it now.
And... looks like the patch got hit by download spamming or something? It's now at 10,000 plus downloads...
hello alll, and tc01,
i have merged bbai 1.01 with this great mod,
but, i have a problem, with the advice of tc01, i publishing it here, and im hoping for someone to be able to help.
the problem is that i need to merge a cvcustomeventmanager.py with the finalfrontiermanager.py, ive tryed several combination's, but it just wont work - the purpose is to get the file of the autoai.py to be activated.
thanks in advance for any help,
its for babylon 5 mod.
i have merged bbai 1.01 with this great mod,
but, i have a problem, with the advice of tc01, i publishing it here, and im hoping for someone to be able to help.
the problem is that i need to merge a cvcustomeventmanager.py with the finalfrontiermanager.py, ive tryed several combination's, but it just wont work - the purpose is to get the file of the autoai.py to be activated.
thanks in advance for any help,
its for babylon 5 mod.
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
As a long time lurker on Final Frontier mods I just want to say, thx for the hard work. Running 1.6 now after a long break since playing on the 1.4 version.
One thing that I always do is give the AI a boost by reducing the randomness of the star system # of planets. So I always add
import random
...and replace the random # of planets calculation as follows:
#iNumPlanets = iPreferredPlanetQuantity + iNumPlanetsRand
iNumPlanets = random.randrange(6,8)
..in the CvSolarSystem.py file.
Not a big deal, but what this does is a) ensure the AI always gets good systems to even the playing field...and b) doesn't annoy the player with these small systems...such as if they occurred in the first ring around the starting system. Uguh.
I guess the reason I mention this is: how about an option to allow the player to choose a larger (or smaller) random system size?
Just for thought, not a big deal.
Cheers.
One thing that I always do is give the AI a boost by reducing the randomness of the star system # of planets. So I always add
import random
...and replace the random # of planets calculation as follows:
#iNumPlanets = iPreferredPlanetQuantity + iNumPlanetsRand
iNumPlanets = random.randrange(6,8)
..in the CvSolarSystem.py file.
Not a big deal, but what this does is a) ensure the AI always gets good systems to even the playing field...and b) doesn't annoy the player with these small systems...such as if they occurred in the first ring around the starting system. Uguh.
I guess the reason I mention this is: how about an option to allow the player to choose a larger (or smaller) random system size?
Just for thought, not a big deal.
Cheers.
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
I've played the latest build three times to mid-game (2nd-level unit techs) and I've seen some issues with AI:
1. Nonsensical war declarations in which a neutral power declares war and invades with almost nothing (1-2 PD ships) and then does almost nothing thereafter. For literally 40-50 turns afterward...not a single enemy attack stack shows up.
2. Nonexistent navies.
I play until mid-game (with the one-two empires having declared war but totally ineffectual). Dozens of turns pass by without seeing anything but a single ship or two.
Bored, I enter worldbuilder and look around and I see that the AI has nice little stacks of fighters/bombers for defense, but little else. Perhaps some singleton battleships/cruisers.
In fact, none of the AI empires have a stack of any kind that I could see, anywhere.
3. AI moves fighters/bombers into a threatened city only when the player attack stack is in an adjacent square to the city.
a. AI has only two-three square visibility outside a city with two PD ships defending...my little stack of 2 DD, 4 INV, 1 scout, 2 PD shows up at the border of his city radius. Nothing happens, I move into the "fat cross". Nothing happens, I move adjacent to the city.
b. Then the AI moves three fighter squadrons into the city on the next move. Then it is my turn and I take the city before those fighters can do anything.
This has happened twice in the last two games.
4. The end result is that the Barbarians are a worse threat...with all the constant warp lane rebuilding etc.
FYI My game settings are usually:
1. huge FF map
2. 7-8 empires
3. monarch or higher
4. Turn off "time" and "research" victories
5. Aggressive AI
6. Quick research pace.
7. No trading/brokering/vassal states
..in case there is something I've doing with the game setup that is encouraging this...
I do think that the additional squadrons are a great idea for the AI...supported a substantial navy this would be a good thing.
Overall I find the mod very stable and I really like the additional features and will keep playing...going to tweak the game setup to see if I can help the AI some...
1. Nonsensical war declarations in which a neutral power declares war and invades with almost nothing (1-2 PD ships) and then does almost nothing thereafter. For literally 40-50 turns afterward...not a single enemy attack stack shows up.
2. Nonexistent navies.
I play until mid-game (with the one-two empires having declared war but totally ineffectual). Dozens of turns pass by without seeing anything but a single ship or two.
Bored, I enter worldbuilder and look around and I see that the AI has nice little stacks of fighters/bombers for defense, but little else. Perhaps some singleton battleships/cruisers.
In fact, none of the AI empires have a stack of any kind that I could see, anywhere.
3. AI moves fighters/bombers into a threatened city only when the player attack stack is in an adjacent square to the city.
a. AI has only two-three square visibility outside a city with two PD ships defending...my little stack of 2 DD, 4 INV, 1 scout, 2 PD shows up at the border of his city radius. Nothing happens, I move into the "fat cross". Nothing happens, I move adjacent to the city.
b. Then the AI moves three fighter squadrons into the city on the next move. Then it is my turn and I take the city before those fighters can do anything.
This has happened twice in the last two games.
4. The end result is that the Barbarians are a worse threat...with all the constant warp lane rebuilding etc.
FYI My game settings are usually:
1. huge FF map
2. 7-8 empires
3. monarch or higher
4. Turn off "time" and "research" victories
5. Aggressive AI
6. Quick research pace.
7. No trading/brokering/vassal states
..in case there is something I've doing with the game setup that is encouraging this...
I do think that the additional squadrons are a great idea for the AI...supported a substantial navy this would be a good thing.
Overall I find the mod very stable and I really like the additional features and will keep playing...going to tweak the game setup to see if I can help the AI some...
TC01
Deity
The wars are likely because Jon Shafer implemented random war declarations to make wars more likely- every turn, there is either a 4 in 1000 or a 6 in 1000 chance (something like that, anyway, God-Emperor can be more exact) of the AI going to war with you. 4 in 100 is possible even at Friendly, I believe.
That should probably be modified to take into account the number of units the AI has...
I'm not sure about the AI's lack of units or fighter movement, though.
EDIT: Yeah, 1000, not 100.
That should probably be modified to take into account the number of units the AI has...
I'm not sure about the AI's lack of units or fighter movement, though.
EDIT: Yeah, 1000, not 100.
God-Emperor
Deity
The random war chance is actually out of 1000 rather than 100.
Each turn for each AI player it checks all the other players. If it has met the other player and that player is not their vassal then there is a chance it will institute a war plan against that player - some of them result in immediate declarations of war, others just start the planning phase. The chance of this happening depends on the AI's attitude towards them.
Furious = 6 in 1000.
Annoyed = 4 in 1000.
Cautious = 2 in 1000.
Pleased or Friendly = 1 in 1000.
So if the AI is furious with another player then the odds that this will happen tops 50% after 115 turns (there is just over a 50% chance that they will have instituted a war plan over the course of 116 turns). Since this is checked for all the other players, the odds of someone randomly picking a war plan at some point are significant. If a lot of AIs are furious with other players then it will tend to happen quicker. Since it is entirely random, the level of preparation can be pitifully bad. It also does not take into account whether or not that player is already at war with someone else. That can lead to an AI who is already at war with someone declaring war on someone (including you) even if they are friendly with that player.
When this happens, there is an even chance of the war plan being any of
WARPLAN_PREPARING_LIMITED,
WARPLAN_PREPARING_TOTAL,
WARPLAN_LIMITED,
WARPLAN_TOTAL,
WARPLAN_DOGPILE
I'm not certain of the details of these, but I think the last 3 result in an immediate declaration of war, regardless of their current strength, except perhaps the dogpile one which might only result in immediate war if that player is already at war (I don't really know). The first 2 go into the standard planning phase which involved the AI determining how many units of the various unit AI types it thinks it needs and then after some number of turns (possibly 10 on standard speed) it checks to see if it has that many and if it does it declares war, or if it doesn't then it can either cancel the plan or continue trying to build up for another set of turns (note that it never checks to see if the opponent's military strength has changed - only if it has met the unit counts it decided on).
Another point: disabling tech trading entirely is likely to have a serious impact on the AI's ability to compete with the human. Disabling tech brokering probably also has a noticeable impact in most games. The AIs are not as good at managing their economies as an experienced human player is, so if they can not help each other at all via tech trading they will almost always fall well behind the human by the midgame. (Although, due to the randomness of the AI's decisions combined with the randomness of the locations and details of the star systems, sometimes they do quite well.)
I have also noticed some "sub-optimal" movement of squadrons. If you approach a star system with enough units to take it, it will sometimes notice this and move the squadrons out of the system when you are a turn or two away from directly attacking it. I have seen it then sometimes move some squadrons back to the system right before you take it, resulting in the loss of those squadrons without ever being able to use them. This is probably the same "moves squadrons to the star system when you fleet is adjacent to the system" effect. I seem to recall that the movement of squadrons was one of the many issues that the BBAI has addressed.
I'm not sure what effect Aggressive AI has on this mod - it may reduce their ability to manage their economies even more than usual.
I would also suggest not using Quick speed. On Standard speed you can often research some of the techs in under 10 turns. Quick just seems excessive in the rate at which techs would fly by (I've never even tried it - I test on Standard, and play mostly on Standard with a few at Epic).
Each turn for each AI player it checks all the other players. If it has met the other player and that player is not their vassal then there is a chance it will institute a war plan against that player - some of them result in immediate declarations of war, others just start the planning phase. The chance of this happening depends on the AI's attitude towards them.
Furious = 6 in 1000.
Annoyed = 4 in 1000.
Cautious = 2 in 1000.
Pleased or Friendly = 1 in 1000.
So if the AI is furious with another player then the odds that this will happen tops 50% after 115 turns (there is just over a 50% chance that they will have instituted a war plan over the course of 116 turns). Since this is checked for all the other players, the odds of someone randomly picking a war plan at some point are significant. If a lot of AIs are furious with other players then it will tend to happen quicker. Since it is entirely random, the level of preparation can be pitifully bad. It also does not take into account whether or not that player is already at war with someone else. That can lead to an AI who is already at war with someone declaring war on someone (including you) even if they are friendly with that player.
When this happens, there is an even chance of the war plan being any of
WARPLAN_PREPARING_LIMITED,
WARPLAN_PREPARING_TOTAL,
WARPLAN_LIMITED,
WARPLAN_TOTAL,
WARPLAN_DOGPILE
I'm not certain of the details of these, but I think the last 3 result in an immediate declaration of war, regardless of their current strength, except perhaps the dogpile one which might only result in immediate war if that player is already at war (I don't really know). The first 2 go into the standard planning phase which involved the AI determining how many units of the various unit AI types it thinks it needs and then after some number of turns (possibly 10 on standard speed) it checks to see if it has that many and if it does it declares war, or if it doesn't then it can either cancel the plan or continue trying to build up for another set of turns (note that it never checks to see if the opponent's military strength has changed - only if it has met the unit counts it decided on).
Another point: disabling tech trading entirely is likely to have a serious impact on the AI's ability to compete with the human. Disabling tech brokering probably also has a noticeable impact in most games. The AIs are not as good at managing their economies as an experienced human player is, so if they can not help each other at all via tech trading they will almost always fall well behind the human by the midgame. (Although, due to the randomness of the AI's decisions combined with the randomness of the locations and details of the star systems, sometimes they do quite well.)
I have also noticed some "sub-optimal" movement of squadrons. If you approach a star system with enough units to take it, it will sometimes notice this and move the squadrons out of the system when you are a turn or two away from directly attacking it. I have seen it then sometimes move some squadrons back to the system right before you take it, resulting in the loss of those squadrons without ever being able to use them. This is probably the same "moves squadrons to the star system when you fleet is adjacent to the system" effect. I seem to recall that the movement of squadrons was one of the many issues that the BBAI has addressed.
I'm not sure what effect Aggressive AI has on this mod - it may reduce their ability to manage their economies even more than usual.
I would also suggest not using Quick speed. On Standard speed you can often research some of the techs in under 10 turns. Quick just seems excessive in the rate at which techs would fly by (I've never even tried it - I test on Standard, and play mostly on Standard with a few at Epic).
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
thanks, going to try: normal speed, enable trading/brokering, disable aggressive
(i think though Monarch+ at normal game rate, the AI tech advantage is going to snow me under but wtf let's give it a go!)
(i think though Monarch+ at normal game rate, the AI tech advantage is going to snow me under but wtf let's give it a go!)
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
(sorry for double posting again)
I play FF as a sort of "casual war game". I always disable the time/influence/ascendancy/ victories and want to build fleets/squadrons and have at it.
Went back and played vanilla FF to compare AI fleet buildout and there are stark differences at turn 156. I saw in worldbuilder:
1. Halis and New Earth had built up bordering fleets against each other (no war yet) consisting of 2-3 BB, 6-10 INV, 3-4 DD, 4-5 Squadrons and/or missiles.
2. Astrotech, which had threatened me several times, had at 2 BB, 6 DD, 4 INV sitting in a border system with me.
...and similar with other empires. While not strong in squadrons, at least the AI empires had a somewhat rational fleet deployed for the most part. A valid "cold war" fleet scenario with all AIs at least ready to begin war. I've yet to see this in FF plus 1.6.
As compared with an FF Plus game with the following settings: normal pace, prince diff, huge FF standard map, star system mod (give all systems 6-8 size), non-aggressive stance after a similar time period had passed:
1. Every empire is halfway through 2nd-level unit tech...but no fleets that I could find...some singleton battleships. Lots of systems with pairs of PD ships and four squadrons, or less. Some systems with a single PD.
2. Barbarians absolutely romping all over the place, one tech-level ahead of player. Half of the AI empires had lost at least one or two systems to the barbs.
I got annoyed when I looked at my cluster of four starting home systems and saw:
Sixteen lvl 2 barbarian DDs (9 strength each), and two barb BBs. At least 5-6 warp lanes being pillaged per turn. More fleet strength that I had, period. Against those eighteen ships I had some lvl 2 PD, lvl 1 DD, and five total of lvl 2 fighters. Only four warp lanes plots existing.
The average number of active barbarian DDs near the starting systems never went down to less than nine for the next ten turns. I must have rolled up raging barbarian spawn rate...which may have accounting for the passivity of the AI...I didn't want to continue just fighting barbs and rebuilding warp lanes.
3. But still this is the same as my last 3-4 FF plus games...no AI fleets in evidence. With one single exception: Astrotech declared war and invaded with 2 BB, 2 DD, 1 INV. Yes, that's right, five ships. They headed after a system that had six PDs waiting for them. After I stomped it with some spare missiles and fighters...nothing from Astrotech for 20-30 turns until I asked for peace and got it so I could go on getting further behind (monarch difficulty).
I do not want to fight the barbs as the single main threat...they only do four things: kill single ships or constructors, kill warp lanes, ineffectively attack systems, or camp out on top of goodie huts.
On the plus side, I DEFINITELY see the nice things otherwise about FF plus: better tech tree, faster turn processing, new units, new buildings, wonders, less memory use (I don't have the restart when music stops playing after awhile), etc. Absolutely in support of this mod.
Next I will try having barbs off completely. Sorry, I cannot hack the "normal" pace any more...just too slow...but will continue to have trading enabled and non-aggressive stance. And sit back and see if the AI comes out to play with anything substantial by level two unit tech...
In some past vanilla FF games I've been invaded by 10-15 BBs and a large supporting fleet (stack of doom approach I suppose) in mid-game as the initial attack after war declaration. THAT is more like it and about the only way to assure the AI of taking a system from the player.
edit: after 150 turns at Monarch difficulty, barbs off, quick speed, non-aggressive: no fleets in any AI empires - just a pair of PD ships, maybe some squadrons. The clincher was RC-1, the 18-pop capital of an eleven system AI star empire....defended by a single PD. Have to return to regular FF...I will eagerly check back in at the next release and see what sort of fleet mix the AI fields.
I play FF as a sort of "casual war game". I always disable the time/influence/ascendancy/ victories and want to build fleets/squadrons and have at it.
Went back and played vanilla FF to compare AI fleet buildout and there are stark differences at turn 156. I saw in worldbuilder:
1. Halis and New Earth had built up bordering fleets against each other (no war yet) consisting of 2-3 BB, 6-10 INV, 3-4 DD, 4-5 Squadrons and/or missiles.
2. Astrotech, which had threatened me several times, had at 2 BB, 6 DD, 4 INV sitting in a border system with me.
...and similar with other empires. While not strong in squadrons, at least the AI empires had a somewhat rational fleet deployed for the most part. A valid "cold war" fleet scenario with all AIs at least ready to begin war. I've yet to see this in FF plus 1.6.
As compared with an FF Plus game with the following settings: normal pace, prince diff, huge FF standard map, star system mod (give all systems 6-8 size), non-aggressive stance after a similar time period had passed:
1. Every empire is halfway through 2nd-level unit tech...but no fleets that I could find...some singleton battleships. Lots of systems with pairs of PD ships and four squadrons, or less. Some systems with a single PD.
2. Barbarians absolutely romping all over the place, one tech-level ahead of player. Half of the AI empires had lost at least one or two systems to the barbs.
I got annoyed when I looked at my cluster of four starting home systems and saw:
Sixteen lvl 2 barbarian DDs (9 strength each), and two barb BBs. At least 5-6 warp lanes being pillaged per turn. More fleet strength that I had, period. Against those eighteen ships I had some lvl 2 PD, lvl 1 DD, and five total of lvl 2 fighters. Only four warp lanes plots existing.
The average number of active barbarian DDs near the starting systems never went down to less than nine for the next ten turns. I must have rolled up raging barbarian spawn rate...which may have accounting for the passivity of the AI...I didn't want to continue just fighting barbs and rebuilding warp lanes.
3. But still this is the same as my last 3-4 FF plus games...no AI fleets in evidence. With one single exception: Astrotech declared war and invaded with 2 BB, 2 DD, 1 INV. Yes, that's right, five ships. They headed after a system that had six PDs waiting for them. After I stomped it with some spare missiles and fighters...nothing from Astrotech for 20-30 turns until I asked for peace and got it so I could go on getting further behind (monarch difficulty).
I do not want to fight the barbs as the single main threat...they only do four things: kill single ships or constructors, kill warp lanes, ineffectively attack systems, or camp out on top of goodie huts.
On the plus side, I DEFINITELY see the nice things otherwise about FF plus: better tech tree, faster turn processing, new units, new buildings, wonders, less memory use (I don't have the restart when music stops playing after awhile), etc. Absolutely in support of this mod.
Next I will try having barbs off completely. Sorry, I cannot hack the "normal" pace any more...just too slow...but will continue to have trading enabled and non-aggressive stance. And sit back and see if the AI comes out to play with anything substantial by level two unit tech...
In some past vanilla FF games I've been invaded by 10-15 BBs and a large supporting fleet (stack of doom approach I suppose) in mid-game as the initial attack after war declaration. THAT is more like it and about the only way to assure the AI of taking a system from the player.
edit: after 150 turns at Monarch difficulty, barbs off, quick speed, non-aggressive: no fleets in any AI empires - just a pair of PD ships, maybe some squadrons. The clincher was RC-1, the 18-pop capital of an eleven system AI star empire....defended by a single PD. Have to return to regular FF...I will eagerly check back in at the next release and see what sort of fleet mix the AI fields.
God-Emperor
Deity
You don't mention some things like what Value the various civs have - differing values tends to lead to more wars. If you (or a single AI) are managing to claim most of them and only spreading 1 (or none), resulting in most (or all) of the AIs having the same Value this could reduce the war preparations. But this is probably not the problem.
I must say that I don't seem to have this problem as much as you do, although I think you are right that there are often fewer ships in the fleets of the AIs then there were in regular FF. Exactly why isn't clear.
Currently I'm thinking that a smaller ship count is a combination of 3 things in the way the game currently works plus maybe anther factor or two relevant to your options.
The first is something that you noticed - the composition of the barbarian fleets. They tend to get delta destroyers well before any player, and battleships at a time that is about the average for the players. This is because the instant the barbarian ship choices switch from the first era's list to the second era's list they get these ships. When does the list change? It changes when "enough" of the players have entered the second era - I think that is half of the players. The switch to the second era happens for each player well before the tech that enables the delta destroyer since it happens as soon as a player research any of: Shock and Awe (enables battleships), Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, or Domestic Development (which is the path to the very valuable Empowered Citizenry tech - very valuable because of all the happiness stuff it gives since it not only enables the Sports Arena but the first player there gets to found the Religion value which has the special building that gives +1
).
Many AIs that have not already founded a value (and some that have) like to go for the Religion granting tech. (So do I, for that matter.) If they are actually in the running to get the tech first it put them into the second era via a path that doesn't add any new ship types other than the Delta PDS, which can make their systems harder to take but does nothing to help them attack anybody or fight off delta destroyers (or battleships). If they beeline for it they may not even have the Shield Generation tech which gives the ability to make Cruisers (which are generally the best ships to kill pirate delta destroyers since they can be built reasonably quickly and are slightly stronger than a delta destroyer) and which also leads to Shock and Awe. The net result is that many of the AIs are unprepared for the Pirate's ship list upgrade.
Another part of that same problem is that in the second era the number of Pirates also increases (it is, as I recall, proportionate with the amount of territory that is not inside anyone's cultural borders, and the percentage increases in the second era). So not only are the pirate ships suddenly stronger, there are also more of them.
This situation is likely to result in a lot of the AI's ships being destroyed, particularly since their use of squadrons is not as good as one might like (so they don't weaken the attacking pirates as effectively as they could).
A possible fix for some of this would be to delay the second era a bit. Perhaps moving the Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, and Domestic Development techs from the 2nd era into the 1st.
The second issue that could be causing a smaller ship count is actually an improvement in the way the building production is done.
In regular FF when the AI checks to see if it can build a building it only checks the planet that is currently selected as its build planet (which is only ever changed in a rather random manner by some building choice AI code). This results in a lot of possible building choices being vetoed once a few buildings have been built on the current built planet - the building selection code in the DLL might want to increase production but if there is already a mining facility on the current planet then it won't be able to do so and will have to do something else (if it is the Python AI code that wants this, then it will try to pick some effectively random planet that doesn't have one as the current build planet - it checks a number of planets that are within the current influence range up to a count of 1 less than the current system population, checking them in the order they were added to the star system, and if it doesn't find one to switch to it bails out and lets the DLL try something).
In FF+, however, the code that checks to see if a building can be built will first check the current build planet but if that planet already has the building on it then it can check every planet in the system that is currently within the current influence range and switch to one that doesn't have it. This presumably results in a lot fewer rejection of building construction attempts.
Since FF+ is rejecting fewer attempts at construction buildings, it probably results in the AI building more buildings and fewer units than regular FF. This would result in the AI having a better economy and higher production, but a less effective fleet (until it starts running out of planets to build things on - at which point it should build more units).
Another related factor is they way I modified the AI to force it to build more squadrons (although it actually forces it to build more instead of buildings). They could be counted as military units which would result in a lower weight for the "build more ships" factor in the AIs decision making, resulting in a reduction in the production of other ships.
A fix for this could be to go through CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml and increase each leader's iBuildUnitProb value by a small amount, like 5 (or maybe 10). The current values are near the same range as the regular BtS values, from 15 for Lu Tianqu to 35 for Raul Colombo and Lukas von Reuther. BtS has Gandhi at 15 and Montezuma (and 4 others) at 35, but also has Mehemed, Napoleon, Ragnar, and Shaka at 40. As you can see, Lu Tianqu is the Gandhi of FF in terms of military - except that the value is possibly effectively lower due to the other issues.
The third issue, which is related to the 2nd, is that there are more things to build. More regular buildings, some national wonders, and some world wonders. This also gives it things to do instead of build units, and some of them take quite a while to complete, especially during the early game. It can take more than 20 turns to build a value shrine, or the Military Science Academy (usually the first non-shrine world wonder to become available). That's 20 (or more) turns where it could have build at least a less expensive building like a mining facility or mag-lev (or both) plus a unit. The fix for problem 2 is pretty much also the fix for this problem.
Your change to the star system generation may actually exacerbate the 2nd and 3rd problems by making it take longer for them to run out of buildings they can build. More planets = more copies of each building, which might equal fewer units being built.
The combination of these three things probably results in the AI tending to have a smaller military.
One of the "another factor or two" I mentioned is your choice of map size. The more room the AIs have to expand the longer they will tend to wait before getting into wars. The random distribution of the players would have an effect - if two start out close they will tend to fight earlier. If they are still focusing on expanding, it could at least aprtly explain the lack of a fleet.
Another part of it might be a consequence of playing above Noble difficulty in addition to the other factors. The number of pirates on Monarch is apparently something like 50% higher than on Noble (I never really play at anything but Noble - most of my games are test games, and getting wiped out, or even falling very far behind, is not good for testing things that happen in the mid to late game).
In my FF+ games, I generally see at least modestly sized fleets in pretty much every game, and often see some that are capable of conquering other AI's star systems (in most games I see AIs taking a few other star systems from other AIs, every once in a while I see them take a bunch) and I do occasionally loose star systems to the AI. I have even seen some of them try what is effectively a fairly early rush, starting perhaps 50 or 60 turns into the game at standard speed - AstroTech, the Forge, and the Brotherhood are the usual suspects for this, but they almost never succeed since they almost never bring enough invasion ships (the Forge tends to bring about one more than the others, presumably since its UU is a variant of the invasion ship, but that just means it often brings two instead of just one, or one instead of none - AstroTech seems to like to attack with a stack of 4-6 Missile Frigates, which is almost certain to fail).
The "not bringing enough invasion ships" thing is one of the factors that makes the AI less effective at invading than it could be (I'm thinking of trying out an adjustment to those units of giving them a small iAIweight value to force them to be built a little more often), the others are relatively ineffective use of squadrons and missiles and especially the fact that it never loads any of either of them onto ships. It would do a lot better on its attacks if it included a carrier full of fighters (or mix of fighters and bombers) in its invasion force, or even just put some missiles on its cruisers. Fixing either of those 2 unit carrying things would require some DLL changes to a couple of unit AIs, or at least some unpleasant (and probably not very effective) Python overrides to the unit AI.
As you can see, FF+ does still have a variety of problems - but it does usually play pretty well.
This week I may try a game or two with all of the leaders having +5 to their iBuildUnitProb values, giving the various invasion ship types a 3 for the iAIweight value, and moving the Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, and Domestic Development techs from the 2nd era into the 1st.
I must say that I don't seem to have this problem as much as you do, although I think you are right that there are often fewer ships in the fleets of the AIs then there were in regular FF. Exactly why isn't clear.
Currently I'm thinking that a smaller ship count is a combination of 3 things in the way the game currently works plus maybe anther factor or two relevant to your options.
The first is something that you noticed - the composition of the barbarian fleets. They tend to get delta destroyers well before any player, and battleships at a time that is about the average for the players. This is because the instant the barbarian ship choices switch from the first era's list to the second era's list they get these ships. When does the list change? It changes when "enough" of the players have entered the second era - I think that is half of the players. The switch to the second era happens for each player well before the tech that enables the delta destroyer since it happens as soon as a player research any of: Shock and Awe (enables battleships), Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, or Domestic Development (which is the path to the very valuable Empowered Citizenry tech - very valuable because of all the happiness stuff it gives since it not only enables the Sports Arena but the first player there gets to found the Religion value which has the special building that gives +1
).Many AIs that have not already founded a value (and some that have) like to go for the Religion granting tech. (So do I, for that matter.) If they are actually in the running to get the tech first it put them into the second era via a path that doesn't add any new ship types other than the Delta PDS, which can make their systems harder to take but does nothing to help them attack anybody or fight off delta destroyers (or battleships). If they beeline for it they may not even have the Shield Generation tech which gives the ability to make Cruisers (which are generally the best ships to kill pirate delta destroyers since they can be built reasonably quickly and are slightly stronger than a delta destroyer) and which also leads to Shock and Awe. The net result is that many of the AIs are unprepared for the Pirate's ship list upgrade.
Another part of that same problem is that in the second era the number of Pirates also increases (it is, as I recall, proportionate with the amount of territory that is not inside anyone's cultural borders, and the percentage increases in the second era). So not only are the pirate ships suddenly stronger, there are also more of them.
This situation is likely to result in a lot of the AI's ships being destroyed, particularly since their use of squadrons is not as good as one might like (so they don't weaken the attacking pirates as effectively as they could).
A possible fix for some of this would be to delay the second era a bit. Perhaps moving the Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, and Domestic Development techs from the 2nd era into the 1st.
The second issue that could be causing a smaller ship count is actually an improvement in the way the building production is done.
In regular FF when the AI checks to see if it can build a building it only checks the planet that is currently selected as its build planet (which is only ever changed in a rather random manner by some building choice AI code). This results in a lot of possible building choices being vetoed once a few buildings have been built on the current built planet - the building selection code in the DLL might want to increase production but if there is already a mining facility on the current planet then it won't be able to do so and will have to do something else (if it is the Python AI code that wants this, then it will try to pick some effectively random planet that doesn't have one as the current build planet - it checks a number of planets that are within the current influence range up to a count of 1 less than the current system population, checking them in the order they were added to the star system, and if it doesn't find one to switch to it bails out and lets the DLL try something).
In FF+, however, the code that checks to see if a building can be built will first check the current build planet but if that planet already has the building on it then it can check every planet in the system that is currently within the current influence range and switch to one that doesn't have it. This presumably results in a lot fewer rejection of building construction attempts.
Since FF+ is rejecting fewer attempts at construction buildings, it probably results in the AI building more buildings and fewer units than regular FF. This would result in the AI having a better economy and higher production, but a less effective fleet (until it starts running out of planets to build things on - at which point it should build more units).
Another related factor is they way I modified the AI to force it to build more squadrons (although it actually forces it to build more instead of buildings). They could be counted as military units which would result in a lower weight for the "build more ships" factor in the AIs decision making, resulting in a reduction in the production of other ships.
A fix for this could be to go through CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml and increase each leader's iBuildUnitProb value by a small amount, like 5 (or maybe 10). The current values are near the same range as the regular BtS values, from 15 for Lu Tianqu to 35 for Raul Colombo and Lukas von Reuther. BtS has Gandhi at 15 and Montezuma (and 4 others) at 35, but also has Mehemed, Napoleon, Ragnar, and Shaka at 40. As you can see, Lu Tianqu is the Gandhi of FF in terms of military - except that the value is possibly effectively lower due to the other issues.
The third issue, which is related to the 2nd, is that there are more things to build. More regular buildings, some national wonders, and some world wonders. This also gives it things to do instead of build units, and some of them take quite a while to complete, especially during the early game. It can take more than 20 turns to build a value shrine, or the Military Science Academy (usually the first non-shrine world wonder to become available). That's 20 (or more) turns where it could have build at least a less expensive building like a mining facility or mag-lev (or both) plus a unit. The fix for problem 2 is pretty much also the fix for this problem.
Your change to the star system generation may actually exacerbate the 2nd and 3rd problems by making it take longer for them to run out of buildings they can build. More planets = more copies of each building, which might equal fewer units being built.
The combination of these three things probably results in the AI tending to have a smaller military.
One of the "another factor or two" I mentioned is your choice of map size. The more room the AIs have to expand the longer they will tend to wait before getting into wars. The random distribution of the players would have an effect - if two start out close they will tend to fight earlier. If they are still focusing on expanding, it could at least aprtly explain the lack of a fleet.
Another part of it might be a consequence of playing above Noble difficulty in addition to the other factors. The number of pirates on Monarch is apparently something like 50% higher than on Noble (I never really play at anything but Noble - most of my games are test games, and getting wiped out, or even falling very far behind, is not good for testing things that happen in the mid to late game).
In my FF+ games, I generally see at least modestly sized fleets in pretty much every game, and often see some that are capable of conquering other AI's star systems (in most games I see AIs taking a few other star systems from other AIs, every once in a while I see them take a bunch) and I do occasionally loose star systems to the AI. I have even seen some of them try what is effectively a fairly early rush, starting perhaps 50 or 60 turns into the game at standard speed - AstroTech, the Forge, and the Brotherhood are the usual suspects for this, but they almost never succeed since they almost never bring enough invasion ships (the Forge tends to bring about one more than the others, presumably since its UU is a variant of the invasion ship, but that just means it often brings two instead of just one, or one instead of none - AstroTech seems to like to attack with a stack of 4-6 Missile Frigates, which is almost certain to fail).
The "not bringing enough invasion ships" thing is one of the factors that makes the AI less effective at invading than it could be (I'm thinking of trying out an adjustment to those units of giving them a small iAIweight value to force them to be built a little more often), the others are relatively ineffective use of squadrons and missiles and especially the fact that it never loads any of either of them onto ships. It would do a lot better on its attacks if it included a carrier full of fighters (or mix of fighters and bombers) in its invasion force, or even just put some missiles on its cruisers. Fixing either of those 2 unit carrying things would require some DLL changes to a couple of unit AIs, or at least some unpleasant (and probably not very effective) Python overrides to the unit AI.
As you can see, FF+ does still have a variety of problems - but it does usually play pretty well.
This week I may try a game or two with all of the leaders having +5 to their iBuildUnitProb values, giving the various invasion ship types a 3 for the iAIweight value, and moving the Streamlined Production, Vacuum Engineering, and Domestic Development techs from the 2nd era into the 1st.
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
Wow, huge comprehensive reply...still chewing on it.
In regards to:
1. ...what Value the various civs have - differing values tends to lead to more wars.
- i always do the following:
a) claim no values unless it makes sense to do so...makes AI emps like me more
b) get as many open border agreements as possible so the AIs will seed my systems with Values and
c) out of self-preservation, I will choose a Value if a majority of AIs are a member of it or to head off an invasion by adopting the value of someone about to stomp on me
d) Usually I play on high difficulty so I have to do what I can to delay the AI from declaring war on me in the vanilla FF before I can complete the expansion phase.
So yes, my lack of a stand of "Values" would make them more peaceful to me, I suppose. Added to that: the high difficulty settings means that I'm never the #1 score or biggest in anything except perhaps land coverage.
2. I would agree that the difficulty level is what is mostly fueling the barb ship superiority...but consider that I played Monarch difficulty in my last game...with no barbarians at all. So no attrition to AI ship rosters in that case...yet still a complete lack of meaningful AI fleets at mid-game.
3. The added variety of buildings and wonders seems to be a factor: the AI appears to compete to build all of the Wonder buildings. This is a bad thing if the fleet is sacrificed. And system development was once taken to a great extreme by Halis: I saw a size 31 star system in FF+ game! Out of twenty games just saw this once...Oh how I dream of having such a system.
4. I agree about the "invasion mix" and the need for carriers/inv/cruisers. etc. In yesterday's vanilla FF game, Halis sent 17 BB, 2 INV, 5 DD. What one carrier would have done for that armada to keep my 10 FF/5 bombers from having it some easy to soften it up.
That being said: The destroyer rocks: if there had been one destroyer for every squadron I could have thrown at the fleet...or even half as many...that invasion fleet may have succeeded.
More destroyers may perhaps be a simple fix to the "AI invasion mix" problem? As in: double or more.
...and would also have been a factor when the player reaches for the "desperation missile strike"
5. A small suggestion to increase the effectiveness of those AI squadrons: a scout ship to increase visibility could be added to default "system defense packages".
This would:
a. provide a theoretical counter to player stealth ship snooping/warp lane busting
b. add at least one squadron defensive attack oppty against pirates/incoming fleets
c. additional warning to concentrate ships.
d. A scout with healing upgrades adds a small amount of invasion resistance
e. Of course if the AI just decides to send those scouts out exploring then no point I guess...unless a unit "Detector PDS" variant? Ok I'm getting out of scope heyah.
6. Another suggestion for the AI system defense: a mere two PDS is not enough...three sounds better given the barbarian rampages. Not when the barbarians were raging about with the numbers I saw in my last FF+ game...
7. For the "unit probability" parameter, I'm going to up that by 10 and try again (CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml and increase each leader's iBuildUnitProb value).
And keep the "aggressive" setting in the hopes that this will push the AI to build more units instead of buildings.
In fact to suit my "casual war game" objective I may tweak all of the Civs more than this after trying it out...
and I will claim a value no one else has early to get AIs grumpy with me, as well...and will stay on Prince difficulty as well.
8. I'm starting to daydream about a "total war" modmod/variant of FF: quick speed, more AI aggression, much more AI unit production, big mixed AI fleets running around...perhaps I can take notes for your posts (and others as well) on what .xml params to modify to achieve this.
In regards to:
1. ...what Value the various civs have - differing values tends to lead to more wars.
- i always do the following:
a) claim no values unless it makes sense to do so...makes AI emps like me more
b) get as many open border agreements as possible so the AIs will seed my systems with Values and
c) out of self-preservation, I will choose a Value if a majority of AIs are a member of it or to head off an invasion by adopting the value of someone about to stomp on me
d) Usually I play on high difficulty so I have to do what I can to delay the AI from declaring war on me in the vanilla FF before I can complete the expansion phase.
So yes, my lack of a stand of "Values" would make them more peaceful to me, I suppose. Added to that: the high difficulty settings means that I'm never the #1 score or biggest in anything except perhaps land coverage.
2. I would agree that the difficulty level is what is mostly fueling the barb ship superiority...but consider that I played Monarch difficulty in my last game...with no barbarians at all. So no attrition to AI ship rosters in that case...yet still a complete lack of meaningful AI fleets at mid-game.
3. The added variety of buildings and wonders seems to be a factor: the AI appears to compete to build all of the Wonder buildings. This is a bad thing if the fleet is sacrificed. And system development was once taken to a great extreme by Halis: I saw a size 31 star system in FF+ game! Out of twenty games just saw this once...Oh how I dream of having such a system.
4. I agree about the "invasion mix" and the need for carriers/inv/cruisers. etc. In yesterday's vanilla FF game, Halis sent 17 BB, 2 INV, 5 DD. What one carrier would have done for that armada to keep my 10 FF/5 bombers from having it some easy to soften it up.
That being said: The destroyer rocks: if there had been one destroyer for every squadron I could have thrown at the fleet...or even half as many...that invasion fleet may have succeeded.
More destroyers may perhaps be a simple fix to the "AI invasion mix" problem? As in: double or more.
...and would also have been a factor when the player reaches for the "desperation missile strike"
5. A small suggestion to increase the effectiveness of those AI squadrons: a scout ship to increase visibility could be added to default "system defense packages".
This would:
a. provide a theoretical counter to player stealth ship snooping/warp lane busting
b. add at least one squadron defensive attack oppty against pirates/incoming fleets
c. additional warning to concentrate ships.
d. A scout with healing upgrades adds a small amount of invasion resistance
e. Of course if the AI just decides to send those scouts out exploring then no point I guess...unless a unit "Detector PDS" variant? Ok I'm getting out of scope heyah.
6. Another suggestion for the AI system defense: a mere two PDS is not enough...three sounds better given the barbarian rampages. Not when the barbarians were raging about with the numbers I saw in my last FF+ game...
7. For the "unit probability" parameter, I'm going to up that by 10 and try again (CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml and increase each leader's iBuildUnitProb value).
And keep the "aggressive" setting in the hopes that this will push the AI to build more units instead of buildings.
In fact to suit my "casual war game" objective I may tweak all of the Civs more than this after trying it out...
and I will claim a value no one else has early to get AIs grumpy with me, as well
...and will stay on Prince difficulty as well.8. I'm starting to daydream about a "total war" modmod/variant of FF: quick speed, more AI aggression, much more AI unit production, big mixed AI fleets running around...perhaps I can take notes for your posts (and others as well) on what .xml params to modify to achieve this.
God-Emperor
Deity
These huge population systems are actually usually a bad thing. It is unlikely that they can have that much population working planets (some of them are almost certainly unhappy as well) unless it is very late in the game after they can build the extended habitation system, which means that some of the population is doing nothing for them. The problem is that maintenance increases as population increases which hurts their economies. It also eats up a lot of production to produce unneeded buildings like extra nutrition facilities that produce food to drive the population beyond what can actually work the planets. It also may mess up the FF+ specific production AI overrides that are done via Python by having some of the weight values very high when there is nothing that can be done about the situation, causing it to ignore other situation that it might be able to do something about.
The most population that can actually be working the planets is theoretically 44. That would be a system of 7 planets each of which is size 3, has a moon (for the moonbase), and has both a habitation system and extended habitation system, has a health/food type resource on a planet with the associated building built, and has the Botanical Gardens wonder. That gives 7 planets * 6 per planet +1 (resource building) +1 (wonder) = 44. But this is a highly unlikely star system, even with your planet count modification. I have never seen one like it (in all the many games I've played I think the highest I've ever seen is one that could have used a population of 37, or maybe 38). Usually the best system (in terms of total population) you can hope for on the map is a 7 planet system with sizes allowing a total of about 16 population, plus maybe 3 moons and a heath/food resource, for a total of 34 with all relevant buildings (35 if you get the Botanical Gardens there); but often there will be no system that is quite that good, sometimes there aren't any that would allow more than 30.
I've been thinking of AI tweaks for this situation and can probably help it somewhat by adjusting the production decision weighting of the AI (in the Python production override) when the system is at or near it's current peak useful population. It could also use a DLL fix since it seems like the "no growth" setting does not actually seem to stop the population from increasing for the AIs (it does for the human player - turning it on for a system causes it to throw away any food that would actually push the population up a level, leaving it 1 point below what it would need to grow).
deanej
Deity
Technically the "no growth" option isn't supposed to to anything about population growth. Shafer re-enabled it only as a hook for the human to disable automatic population assignment when the city grows.
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
I tried last night upping the "unit probability" parameter for all AI empires by 10 (CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml and increase each leader's iBuildUnitProb value)....but no appreciable affect by middle of second level unit tech (i.e. nearing end of expansion phase).
In worldbuilder, here was Halis total military presence: Five inhabited systems...homeworld at size 18 with one PDS. One planet with a single battleship...others with two PDS, 2-3 squadrons defense package. And some colonizers wandering about alone. Their whole empire just ripe for being overtaken...except that all AIs were pretty much in this state.
- so I think this is pretty much proof of what you have been saying about on the "high # of planets" system modmod and effect of just a bunch of unhappy/unhealthy high population...and all those possible building slots that AI might be opting for instead of units.
I guess if I want big wars
a) The AI needs to run out of empty systems and
b) finish building out systems to some scripted degree
A last word regarding barbarians:
They are far and away the most powerful force in play: average of 3-5 level 2 destroyers appear every turn at player borders.
The "huge" size maps, even in my last game with 10 AI empires, left many empty systems...perhaps this adds to more spawn space for barbs I think, as well as encouraging colonization instead of wars. In the above, there was about the double Halis fleet strength in barbarian units around their little pocket empire...
The human player on the other hand, was maintaining a large force of constructors, squadrons, etc. and they were in constant use. If the intention of the modmod was to have the human spending all their time fighting barb squads in mid-game...yikes, objective achieved. Not single units...but streams of them arrive in system in twos and threes. I like the idea of 2-3 barb units showing up every 2-3 turns...last night I had to park a colonizer and escort @10 turns just to wait for a parade of six or more barb INV and DDs to fly by. It was like going upstream in a fish ladder when the salmon were heading downstream.
Also in 190 turns of "quick play": eight of nine captured systems were by the barbs with only one time an AI took one back.
So going to try the reverse of what I've been doing:
a) lots of AI empires in a medium or large map (not huge) to fill the map soonest
b) remove my little planet modmod or alternatively force all planets to be size 3 or 4 systems (leave homeworlds alone) to limit the buildings but leave enough for some specialization
c) revert to default CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml
So other than the unit production perhaps I've been created my own problem
A request for a future FF plus: allow the player to "research or trade for research on custom units". I.e. lets me customize my faction by adding Battlecarrier if I wish to research it. Or: allow player to choose one custom unit as a checkbox option in the customize game menu. Gosh I have all this work planned for the modder...let me stop and go test the above...
In worldbuilder, here was Halis total military presence: Five inhabited systems...homeworld at size 18 with one PDS. One planet with a single battleship...others with two PDS, 2-3 squadrons defense package. And some colonizers wandering about alone. Their whole empire just ripe for being overtaken...except that all AIs were pretty much in this state.
- so I think this is pretty much proof of what you have been saying about on the "high # of planets" system modmod and effect of just a bunch of unhappy/unhealthy high population...and all those possible building slots that AI might be opting for instead of units.
I guess if I want big wars
a) The AI needs to run out of empty systems and
b) finish building out systems to some scripted degree
A last word regarding barbarians:
They are far and away the most powerful force in play: average of 3-5 level 2 destroyers appear every turn at player borders.
The "huge" size maps, even in my last game with 10 AI empires, left many empty systems...perhaps this adds to more spawn space for barbs I think, as well as encouraging colonization instead of wars. In the above, there was about the double Halis fleet strength in barbarian units around their little pocket empire...
The human player on the other hand, was maintaining a large force of constructors, squadrons, etc. and they were in constant use. If the intention of the modmod was to have the human spending all their time fighting barb squads in mid-game...yikes, objective achieved. Not single units...but streams of them arrive in system in twos and threes. I like the idea of 2-3 barb units showing up every 2-3 turns...last night I had to park a colonizer and escort @10 turns just to wait for a parade of six or more barb INV and DDs to fly by. It was like going upstream in a fish ladder when the salmon were heading downstream.
Also in 190 turns of "quick play": eight of nine captured systems were by the barbs with only one time an AI took one back.
So going to try the reverse of what I've been doing:
a) lots of AI empires in a medium or large map (not huge) to fill the map soonest
b) remove my little planet modmod or alternatively force all planets to be size 3 or 4 systems (leave homeworlds alone) to limit the buildings but leave enough for some specialization
c) revert to default CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml
So other than the unit production perhaps I've been created my own problem
A request for a future FF plus: allow the player to "research or trade for research on custom units". I.e. lets me customize my faction by adding Battlecarrier if I wish to research it. Or: allow player to choose one custom unit as a checkbox option in the customize game menu. Gosh I have all this work planned for the modder...let me stop and go test the above...
Lord Tirian
Erratic Poster
Huh, glad I'm the only one noticing this. I also have a guess what's the reason:
Barbarian activity is handled by the difficulty level as a number of barbarians units per unowned tiles on the map (as God-Emperor noted above). This is probably leading to a couple of problems:
- Final Frontier map scripts are producing a lot of land => more barbarians
- Final Frontier settling is restricted to solar systems, you can't make border grap settlements => less owned tiles => more barbarians
- Huge maps, at least Spiral Galaxy, don't have than many solar systems, but a lot more tiles than, say, a normal map => even more barbarians
To remedy this, the amount of Barbarians needs to be tweaked and might need to scale differently depending on map size. Personally, I also think space pirates shouldn't get freaking BBs. Let them have DDs and INVs and the occasional CR - and let this scale up with the Delta/Omega versions - pirates should fly around in small vessels, not in capital ships.
Cheers, LT.
me_myrmidon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 38
Sorry for the long post.
So I played a large map with eight total players, prince difficulty, aggressive, quick speed. The map was basically filled with all systems possessed by AI, me or Pirates by turn 200.
However except for one war between Columbo and Forge, everyone was very passive. Religion was balanced between five Knowledge (me also) and three Survivor. I had not one, but *two* Defensive Pacts active. Not exactly the "aggressive" game I was hoping for...giving up on that starting game attribute. Should have listened to my betters about "aggressive"...
Here was the mega-homeworld of the Avowers (size freaking 45!) after I took it.
http://img444.imageshack.us/f/size45avowershomeworld0.jpg/
As previously reported, the barbs were crazy active at all times. Eight of ten turns would see @5 barb DD and 1 BB in the player territory pillaging, or just appearing. So a force of squadrons, constructors, and DD were required to stay at home to deal with this. AI was losing systems regularly until the late game. The barbs even took New Earth. Fighting barbs is not interesting after the 100th turn of this...
I would pop into worldbuilder every 50 turns or so to see what the AI was stockpiling in terms of fleets. The top "fleet" was Columbo with four battleships in their homeworld. Eventually Columbo went to war against Forge and took two cities before peace. But otherwise every AI appeared to be building up their system sizes (and buildings, econ and population?) primarily. That's one serious war among the AI in @300 turns of play?
In the meantime I built up a level 2 tech (only level 1 BB) attack stack and kept four PDS at all systems, with @20 squadrons overall. I took three neighboring pirate systems to keep my economy going and continued to wait to see what the AI would do.
Once the AIs were fielding Omega battleships, all of my defensive pacts were committed in a single act of war by Avowers against one of my friends. So I found myself at war with Avowers, who had an empire of seven systems to my south. Poor Avowers now found themselves fighting three empires at once, due to the interlocking defensive pacts. The three closest Avower systems were rc-2 (size 25), rc-3 (size 23), and rc-1 (size whoa 45). I decided to go after rc-2 which was threatening to engulf some of my resources. Anyway that size 45 system had *eight* or more tiles of influence around it with 100% defense bonus.
I reconned and saw nothing to stop me so I sent my invasion force, which was a bit behind in tech, against rc-2, which only had two DDs, 2 PDs and a fighter. In the three turns it took to get close to the city (I had two move per turn ships), Avowers built or relocated six 36-strength battleships *and* built a squadron defense network in rc-2. I sent the fleet home to sit at my starbase which was north of rc-2.
Next, I relocated my fleet to my system which was south east of rc-1. Recon showed that Avowers were building battleships every two-three turns. Rc-1 now had six lvl 2 BBs...more than I could do with my current stack.
So 20-30 turns of building up a few lvl 2 battleships and more Omega fighters. In the meantime Avowers, sent all of his attacks against my ally to the south, if he had any.
Once I was ready, I sent my fleet towards rc-1, but actually was attacking rc-3 (size 23). Sent my fighters in to attack rc-1 and rc-3 and found both to lack squadron defense. Fended off singleton BB reinforcements from rc-2, which seemed to be Avowers' primary shipyard. Took rc-3.
Paused to build up the PDS I would need to garrison the next system, then invaded toward rc-2, but then recon showed Korovin had a three Omega BB coming up from the south to raid...just under RC-1. So I moved towards rc-1 which had five lvl 2 BB (equal to my invading fleet BB/BCs). I kept those BBs inside the city with fighter/missle attack. Stayed adjacent until Korovin spent his Omega BB against rc-1. Then took rc-1....size....45.
During the fighting: Avower a) favored building BB b) did not replenish his squadrons...I took two bomber runs from him in 20-40 turns of fighting c) the only counterattack was a stack of 3 INV, 2 BB, 2 CR, which I took apart because he decided to try to form them on on my border, instead of forming them a city.
Meanwhile, Halis attempted peacekeeping to end the war against Avower several times...but "no" kept me in business.
So in summary:
a) AI in FF+ appears to be fairly good at "reactive" BB shipbuilding/relocating for defense/offense when the player was in their space/visible. This turned back one assault but was easily countered.
The key to defeat the BB building: the AI would not keep any of those BB at home. They were constantly on the move...so the human player uses recon to watch for those BBs to wander off and keeps the player stack out of sight in a bordering system.
It would be nice if AI used recon (or if we could simulate this by giving AI super-visibility)...perhaps the AI could then counter-build appropriately...and keep those defenders home.
(In fact, to help the AI, I would request (or let me know what the "visibility" parameter is and I will test this) to allow AI the equivalent of "squadron recon" vision distance from their systems at all times. This would allow the AI to "see" big incoming stacks and do something about them.). Or give the AI squadrons that "vision" distance to simulate that the squadrons are doing constant recon.
But no AI offensive/defensive stack building worthy of the name "stack". Had Avowers built PDS and DD in matching numbers (I had twelve omega INV in my final attack stack) I probably would not have succeeded against those BBs. But they only had two PDS for company...so the BBs had to soak up 3-4 turns of bombardment before I was adjacent. Did not lose a ship or squadron and took three systems. This is not because I'm any sort of tactical genius.
Ah yes, Avower did one good thing: they actually had a few Recon ships...that's how I lost my one stealth ship after it pillaged some warp lanes around rc-3 to delay those BB reinforcements. So that was the only loss overall. No more recons were built by Avower after that...
b) Massive AI economies...no fleets...perhaps even all research completed. This was the final war stage...everyone had "planned economy available". Even with my "attack stack" economy I was running 30% and making 198 credits per turn with all but Omega carriers available to build. Surely the AI had enormous overhead to seriously BUILD. Avowers, perhaps, could have "reactive-built" his way to stalemate my entire offensive.
c) AI must build squadron defense networks....must, must, must. That building alone counters squadrons, missiles, etc. As in: a fighter could score 16% damage in one turn against the BB sitting in the Avower homeworld...but with squadron defense: that would be only 3%.
d) Reiterating previous advice about AI garrisons: to counter the barbs, AI needs three (or four) PDS and one scout (for squadron visibility) at minimum.
So I played a large map with eight total players, prince difficulty, aggressive, quick speed. The map was basically filled with all systems possessed by AI, me or Pirates by turn 200.
However except for one war between Columbo and Forge, everyone was very passive. Religion was balanced between five Knowledge (me also) and three Survivor. I had not one, but *two* Defensive Pacts active. Not exactly the "aggressive" game I was hoping for...giving up on that starting game attribute. Should have listened to my betters about "aggressive"...
Here was the mega-homeworld of the Avowers (size freaking 45!) after I took it.
http://img444.imageshack.us/f/size45avowershomeworld0.jpg/
As previously reported, the barbs were crazy active at all times. Eight of ten turns would see @5 barb DD and 1 BB in the player territory pillaging, or just appearing. So a force of squadrons, constructors, and DD were required to stay at home to deal with this. AI was losing systems regularly until the late game. The barbs even took New Earth. Fighting barbs is not interesting after the 100th turn of this...
I would pop into worldbuilder every 50 turns or so to see what the AI was stockpiling in terms of fleets. The top "fleet" was Columbo with four battleships in their homeworld. Eventually Columbo went to war against Forge and took two cities before peace. But otherwise every AI appeared to be building up their system sizes (and buildings, econ and population?) primarily. That's one serious war among the AI in @300 turns of play?
In the meantime I built up a level 2 tech (only level 1 BB) attack stack and kept four PDS at all systems, with @20 squadrons overall. I took three neighboring pirate systems to keep my economy going and continued to wait to see what the AI would do.
Once the AIs were fielding Omega battleships, all of my defensive pacts were committed in a single act of war by Avowers against one of my friends. So I found myself at war with Avowers, who had an empire of seven systems to my south. Poor Avowers now found themselves fighting three empires at once, due to the interlocking defensive pacts. The three closest Avower systems were rc-2 (size 25), rc-3 (size 23), and rc-1 (size whoa 45). I decided to go after rc-2 which was threatening to engulf some of my resources. Anyway that size 45 system had *eight* or more tiles of influence around it with 100% defense bonus.
I reconned and saw nothing to stop me so I sent my invasion force, which was a bit behind in tech, against rc-2, which only had two DDs, 2 PDs and a fighter. In the three turns it took to get close to the city (I had two move per turn ships), Avowers built or relocated six 36-strength battleships *and* built a squadron defense network in rc-2. I sent the fleet home to sit at my starbase which was north of rc-2.
Next, I relocated my fleet to my system which was south east of rc-1. Recon showed that Avowers were building battleships every two-three turns. Rc-1 now had six lvl 2 BBs...more than I could do with my current stack.
So 20-30 turns of building up a few lvl 2 battleships and more Omega fighters. In the meantime Avowers, sent all of his attacks against my ally to the south, if he had any.
Once I was ready, I sent my fleet towards rc-1, but actually was attacking rc-3 (size 23). Sent my fighters in to attack rc-1 and rc-3 and found both to lack squadron defense. Fended off singleton BB reinforcements from rc-2, which seemed to be Avowers' primary shipyard. Took rc-3.
Paused to build up the PDS I would need to garrison the next system, then invaded toward rc-2, but then recon showed Korovin had a three Omega BB coming up from the south to raid...just under RC-1. So I moved towards rc-1 which had five lvl 2 BB (equal to my invading fleet BB/BCs). I kept those BBs inside the city with fighter/missle attack. Stayed adjacent until Korovin spent his Omega BB against rc-1. Then took rc-1....size....45.
During the fighting: Avower a) favored building BB b) did not replenish his squadrons...I took two bomber runs from him in 20-40 turns of fighting c) the only counterattack was a stack of 3 INV, 2 BB, 2 CR, which I took apart because he decided to try to form them on on my border, instead of forming them a city.
Meanwhile, Halis attempted peacekeeping to end the war against Avower several times...but "no" kept me in business.
So in summary:
a) AI in FF+ appears to be fairly good at "reactive" BB shipbuilding/relocating for defense/offense when the player was in their space/visible. This turned back one assault but was easily countered.
The key to defeat the BB building: the AI would not keep any of those BB at home. They were constantly on the move...so the human player uses recon to watch for those BBs to wander off and keeps the player stack out of sight in a bordering system.
It would be nice if AI used recon (or if we could simulate this by giving AI super-visibility)...perhaps the AI could then counter-build appropriately...and keep those defenders home.
(In fact, to help the AI, I would request (or let me know what the "visibility" parameter is and I will test this) to allow AI the equivalent of "squadron recon" vision distance from their systems at all times. This would allow the AI to "see" big incoming stacks and do something about them.). Or give the AI squadrons that "vision" distance to simulate that the squadrons are doing constant recon.
But no AI offensive/defensive stack building worthy of the name "stack". Had Avowers built PDS and DD in matching numbers (I had twelve omega INV in my final attack stack) I probably would not have succeeded against those BBs. But they only had two PDS for company...so the BBs had to soak up 3-4 turns of bombardment before I was adjacent. Did not lose a ship or squadron and took three systems. This is not because I'm any sort of tactical genius.
Ah yes, Avower did one good thing: they actually had a few Recon ships...that's how I lost my one stealth ship after it pillaged some warp lanes around rc-3 to delay those BB reinforcements. So that was the only loss overall. No more recons were built by Avower after that...
b) Massive AI economies...no fleets...perhaps even all research completed. This was the final war stage...everyone had "planned economy available". Even with my "attack stack" economy I was running 30% and making 198 credits per turn with all but Omega carriers available to build. Surely the AI had enormous overhead to seriously BUILD. Avowers, perhaps, could have "reactive-built" his way to stalemate my entire offensive.
c) AI must build squadron defense networks....must, must, must. That building alone counters squadrons, missiles, etc. As in: a fighter could score 16% damage in one turn against the BB sitting in the Avower homeworld...but with squadron defense: that would be only 3%.
d) Reiterating previous advice about AI garrisons: to counter the barbs, AI needs three (or four) PDS and one scout (for squadron visibility) at minimum.
