Firends and Defensive Pact for 1000 Years, then Backstab...

[Luven]

Hello

So i'm in an immortal game as France. Everything was going pretty well until i got backstabed with a huge Army by Washington.

We were in a Friendship and Defensive Pact for over 1000 Years, probably about 100 Turns. Me, him and Japan in a triangle to rule the world. Supporting each other in every war and with research, it was a really nice time while we were dealing with the savage brutes of Alexander and Bismark and and sometimes Spain or Aegypt.

My religion was dominant on the Pangaea and America adapted it happily. Only Spain and Greece had other Religions with more than one City.

I really thought i have done everything right Diplomacy wise and was happy to finally be able to maneuver the game exactly in the direction i wanted.

Then in 1450 A.D. the backstab happened and because America had open borders with me for centuries, so they were actually able to contribute in the war, their attack was devastating and their numbers too much to handle, even with walls. My Army, while strong was way out of position on the greek front and was unable to rush back in time and key Cities fell. Leaving my empire in a stat where winning is very unlikely.

Does that happen often ? is there a way to prevent it ? Anyone got some advice of some sort ?

Thanks, and sorry if my English isn't perfect.
Edit: In the title it should obviously say Friends, sorry about that.

 

[Crow, of Earth]

After struggling for a while to play nice with the AI as I did in civ4, where I was offering gifts to leaders I liked and where I never backstabbed, in civ5 I turned in stead to a strategy of "continuously cripple/conquer AI civs until science victory or no AIs left, whichever comes first".

Ofc, I only play prince/king, so not sure how well this plan would work on higher difficulties, but I do think that you have to choose:
-either play nice, get a tall empire easy to defend and keep your armies home
-or continuously wage war, going with the idea of "offense = best defense"

You can't be nice while having your armies far from home, though.

 

[alg0801]

I'm pretty new to this game, but from what I gather, the best way to not get backstabbed is to make sure people fear your military. Really think about it in terms of real life. The biggest and most advanced countries (in all areas) in modern time are the ones that have a strong military.

It doesn't matter how scientifically advanced or how many cities you have or how much culture you or how fast you build policy if you have no army to protect what you have.

 

[Kuruntia]

Washington seems to have been clever.

Imagine him being a human player: Thinking "that fool has his troops far away from home. If I'm ever going to attack him, it's gotta be now!"

At least that's how I think. Try and adopt the "If I'm ever going to attack him - when's that time?"

Wash obviously picked his time right.

You might also ask yourself why your main troops were so far away. Did you really need them all to destroy Greece? Consider eater bigger opponents, instead of eating the smallest, risk-less ones

 

[The Pilgrim]

It doesn't matter how scientifically advanced or how many cities you have or how much culture you or how fast you build policy if you have no army to protect what you have.

That's not completely accurate. Small but highly advanced army (which can be drafted within single turns if your production and economy base is strong enough) can repel hordes of outdated units. I'm not saying one doesn't need military for defense, but having a huge standing army is counter productive. It's much better to have fewer but more advanced units. Quality > quantity.

 

[Novalia]

Trusting Washington was your first mistake.. not that you should have known this... but he is infamous for his backstabbing in this game.

I prefer buying open borders to trading open borders with friends. Perhaps he would not have known your army was so far away if he didnt have access to your territory.

 

[loki75]

That's why you need to continuously (on high difficulty) "propose" deals to the AI to discover who is really your friend.
A "friend" who won't fork more than 200gp for a lux is not really a "friend" and you should act accordingly.
Also, Bismarck, Caesar, Washington, Attila, Dido (and probably a few others, but these come out of the top of my head) *will* backstab a lot.

 

[sutasafaia]

That's why you need to continuously (on high difficulty) "propose" deals to the AI to discover who is really your friend.
A "friend" who won't fork more than 200gp for a lux is not really a "friend" and you should act accordingly.
Also, Bismarck, Caesar, Washington, Attila, Dido (and probably a few others, but these come out of the top of my head) *will* backstab a lot.

Attila especially, he backstabs so often I almost find it funny. He will sit troops around your border, declare war, get beaten back and declare peace a few turns later. Exactly ten turns later when the peace treaty wears off he's got troops at your border and declaring war again, rinse and repeat. I was actually starting to wonder if something was wrong with his head.

 

[Dogmouth]

Don't forget Catherine. Every time I DOF her, I start a countdown until I'll see her creepy visage with the words WAR.

 

[Sublime82]

I've noticed that AIs, including those who are friends, seem to more readily declare war when they find a border undefended. It seems that if I move my entire army to the front and leave a big fat city with no units around it, it increases the likelihood of an AI attacking from the rear. Whether this is really a behaviour or not I have no idea, but it is definitely a prudent idea to at least station a token force at each strategic front to guard against emergencies (2-3 ranged are more than able to beat off an attack until help arrives).

 

[chmilz]

1. Never open borders. Ever. Buy them if you need them, but never sell or trade your own, even if you want to let other militaries pass through. Never let opponents (even allies) know what is happening within your borders.

2. Always keep some upgraded defensive units on all fronts. This will both dissuade others from attacking, and buy you some time in the case of DoW, especially if they're well bunkered in a pinch with a fort.

3. Almost nobody stays your friend forever. Only one civ can win, and if you become a threat to their victory, they will turn on you.

 

[Luven]

Thanks for the answers, seems like you have to live with backstabbing and be prepared.

 

[compwiz1202]

I think they should just do away with Hostile, Guarded, Neutral and Friendly and just put ??? for them all I had the same thing happen with Siam once, but at least he just denounced after centuries of DoF. I got so peed by that, he had to be eliminated

 

[Haaaaah]

I've had it happen with Egypt as my neighbor to the right and Ethiopia to my left. I had DoF and a Defensive Pact running with Egypt for pretty much the entire game. Then as soon as I went to pick on Ethiopia, Egypt backstabbed me.

I did well to teach him a lesson and razed him all the way to Thebes though.

 

[Biologist]

Washington seems to have been clever.

I agree. If I were playing against somebody as powerful as me, and knew I had to take them out to succeed at my chosen victory type, I'd probably do the same thing. That said, backstabs are not necessarily automatic even when the AI has a stronger military. I played a game in which Boudicca attacked me early, but after I fought off her troops she became friendly and eventually signed a DoF. At the end of the game (many turns later), she was the only civ to remain friendly with me and vote for my UN victory; all others declared war on me in the final few turns (I guess they thought they could take me out before the vote or something).

Diplomacy in Civ V isn't complete potluck though. Certain civs have stronger "backstab" tendencies (technically called "flavors"). Carthage is an example of a civ that is very likely to backstab under any circumstances. India is a civ that I have never had backstab me; Gandhi may denounce me if I do things he doesn't like, but I've never had him attack me out of the blue.

Certain factors seem to alter the probability of being backstabbed. Having a powerful common enemy with a civ seems to reduce their chance of backstabbing you; possibly Alexander was not sufficiently threatening for Washington to want your help any longer. Denouncing a civ that your friend likes can prompt a backstab if your friend likes that civ more than you. Having a military of roughly equal size or greater when compared to any civ's military will make that civ less likely to backstab. I'm not sure if unit positioning matters, although if you reinforce a border that is being encroached, that can make others back off. Finally, your closeness to achieving a victory condition seems to matter. In the game I mentioned earlier, more and more civs grew hostile toward me (including ones I had never directly harmed) as I increased my score and tech lead, culminating in a mass DoW when I built the UN.

There are certain signs that a backstab is imminent. A civ that shows a diplomacy attitude of "Friendly" or "Neutral" but has many red diplo modifiers and few green ones is likely waiting for a chance to attack you. If a civ requests open borders (especially with no real pretense); moves a suspicious number of troops to your border and keeps them there; ignores a current enemy and marches in your direction; or settles cities aggressively near your border, those may be signs of imminent attack.

Sorry for the rather lengthy post but I wanted to be thorough. I hope this information helps you avoid being backstabbed in the future.

 

[smallfish]

Can somebody confirm that AIs will DOW through Friendship pacts, preferably with a screenshot?

This seems to be a new phenomenon that only happens on Immortal+... ?

 

[Streams]

I don't have a screenshot, but I can confirm this.

I was playing Sweden in a GotM match, with almost no army, had Ramses and Willem as neighbourghs. We were quite friendly until the moment they both decided to take a shot at my Petra city.

 

[secon]

i just started working on emperor (finally won my first game yay!) and being backstabbed appears to be a way of life. i've had the same being friends with someone for half the game and they attack out of nowhere (calling me bloodthirsty when i've never started a war is hilarious) being denounced out of the blue for no reason happens all the time too.

although by far my favorite that's happened a few times is someone asking me to declare war on someone else and when i ask for 10 turns to prepare they attack ME the next turn. or they'll offer a declaration of friendship and then attack me the next turn lol

 

[smallfish]

I don't have a screenshot, but I can confirm this.

I was playing Sweden in a GotM match, with almost no army, had Ramses and Willem as neighbourghs. We were quite friendly until the moment they both decided to take a shot at my Petra city.

Playing a modified version of Emperor that gives them AIs Immortal unit construction bonuses... jeez, I never experienced this kind of thing in my ole Fall Emperor games.

Let's see here, my good friend Darius

Spoiler :

He attacked during GA, which is kinda nice... not so nice was Wu completing GW in T95

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I was now hellbent on getting marble city back... Tough fight with GA-boosted Immortals, but my forces managed to whack him out of Orleans something fierce. But the damage was already done though, and since this is 6 I didn't bother with sciencey stuff until now

Then we made peace

Spoiler :

Making him eat citadel was the least I could do to tell him what a backstabbing prick he was

Spoiler :

Sometime later, my other good friend Cathy decides that Darius is an untrustworthy warmonger who needs to be put to the sword

I declined for empire building reasons

Spoiler :

Le sigh

Spoiler :

Backstab is indeed such an ugly word

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[tommynt]

I really thought i have done everything right Diplomacy wise and was happy to finally be able to maneuver the game exactly in the direction i wanted.

So you complain about ai stoping you from winning?

Really?