First moves and getting those huts.

[sampsa]

So is that your indirect way of saying if the save doesn't have it then you can't use it?

I think it's a rather direct way of saying it. You haven't done anything wrong, it is what it is.

 

[TruePurple]

Thank you for uploading the 4000bc save.

Moving away from the plains hill was a mistake. 12 turn worker had you settled in place. You moved 1 tile so effectively 16 turn worker. Sampsa actually moved the settler back to where it had started from.

Like the save, I already said moving was a mistake.

I doubt Sampsa moved back as I had already uploaded 4k save before Sampsa did that run start, Sampsa probably used the 4k save file that was already available.

You keep on retreading stuff already covered as though you weren't reading all the posts fully

 

[antimony]

Like the save, I already said moving was a mistake.

I doubt Sampsa moved back as I had already uploaded 4k save before Sampsa did that run start, Sampsa probably used the 4k save file that was already available.

You keep on retreading stuff already covered as though you weren't reading all the posts fully

So do we all agree that worker first and BW first is better here, considering we settle capital on the hill?

 

[TruePurple]

So do we all agree that worker first and BW first is better here, considering we settle capital on the hill?

I absolutely agree that the start location on the hill is better, fresh water access as well. But I still say fishing first. I will run some test games with the two variants with that hill location

 

[TruePurple]

Ignoring everything else, it's a tie for how quick you can build a worker and mine pig hill verses building a FS for clam, both are done on turn 15.

 

[sampsa]

i.e. worker first is a full worker ahead? That's insane

 

[TruePurple]

Ignoring getting huts and AI connections for tech trade as well as fog busting concerns. I tried it a bunch of different ways with BW then fishing and visa versa.

Fishing first is absolutely better. I worked on a worker till I got fishing, then made a boat and then went back to finish the worker and then made another boat. As far as when I could get another city down and resource access, both versions were similar. But fishing first made for more research which meant getting LH faster which means more food.

Also with more consideration Sampsa second city location is bad. Like there is a river shortly away and more space between the cities for more available tiles to work while still being able to access fish.

 

[sampsa]

You are not making any sense. Being a full worker behind can not be better.

I don't know where Sampson settled, but I'm sure my 2nd city location is the standard one. Food to the first ring. It was easy to get the boat immediately because I had workers.

 

[TruePurple]

Sorry I got your name wrong.

Excessive overlap and not having fresh water are both problems.

I have redone it over and over, I am sure Fishing tech first is better. Also having a second worker is pretty useless without the tech to use it. Besides I question "full worker ahead" I can get a second worker pretty easily within the same time frame with fishing first if I want to.

 

[sampsa]

Excessive overlap and not having fresh water are both problems.

Overlap is good. Fresh water doesn't have that much value.

I have redone it over and over, I am sure Fishing tech first is better. Also having a second worker is pretty useless without the tech.

Well, then you are redoing it wrong. Worker or two workers, you DO have the tech that allows a worker to create 6,67/turn which allows you to expand very swiftly.

Besides I question "full worker ahead" I can get a second worker pretty easily within the same time frame with fishing first if I want to.

No you can't, because worker first is so much ahead in worker turns, which are chops, which generate , which generate settlers and workers. Fishing first will never catch up, no matter what you do.

You are not exactly trying to learn here, so I don't think I'll contribute much to this thread anymore. Perhaps someone else gives it a shot, in vain obviously.

 

[antimony]

Fishing first is absolutely better. I worked on a worker till I got fishing, then made a boat and then went back to finish the worker and then made another boat. As far as when I could get another city down and resource access, both versions were similar. But fishing first made for more research which meant getting LH faster which means more food.

You can certainly get a 2nd city down earlier with BW and worker first. Here's why.

We have a fairly simple comparison because on one hand you are building workboat-worker and researching fishing-BW (option 1) and on the other hand worker-workboat and BW-fishing (option 2). It's the exact same thing done in different order. In worker first, by the time you finish BW the pigs mine is done and the worker starts chopping the workboat. Fishing first necessarily finishes BW later (I imagine about 6 turns later?), at which point you whip the worker, right? That's the earliest worker you can get.

So let's say it's 6 turns, the worker in worker first can chop two forests for 40 production. The clams in workboat first during that time only get 12 extra commerce (research). The extra food from the clams (2 surplus food) is roughly equivalent to the extra production on the pigs mine (3 production) because how you convert food into production via whipping.

The exact number of turns doesn't really matter, it comes down to the extra 20 production from chopping every 3 turns, even if there is nothing else to improve. You would need the workboat to come out much earlier than T12 to generate enough extra food and commerce to compensate for that. (Like if your Civ starts with fishing tech, you can build the workboat right away so it's more likely to be a better choice then. Or if there is really nothing to do for the worker because your Civ doesn't start with any useful tech for the map.)

EDIT: I'm repeating @sampsa here because I wrote my post at the same time.

Also, circling back to the original topic of the thread, which was about whether huts change things where you want to build more exploring units first to get those huts... It seems even @TruePurple has converged to a strategy of building working units first (i.e. workboat an worker).

 

[TruePurple]

Overlap is good. Fresh water doesn't have that much value.

Fresh water is 2 more health which absolutely does have value. I get your idea of access to fish earlier though.

You are not exactly trying to learn here, so I don't think I'll contribute much to this thread anymore. Perhaps someone else gives it a shot, in vain obviously.

I am trying to learn, not just from other people but myself as I experiment with this and try different things.

If you are going to look down on me and not consider what I have spent a considerable amount of time determining to be true, then scam. I want people who are willing to talk as equals. Not someone talking down to me trying to cram their opinion down my throat.

I have taken many pieces of advice and rechanged my strategy over and over. After all that testing, I say fishing first is better. You disagree, fine. Even though you admit to not even having tried it my way. Just please don't be condescending, it is rude. I don't need your patience, I need your consideration and decency.

 

[sampsa]

Fresh water is 2 more health which absolutely does have value.

Why does have value? It only does once you'd go over the -cap without the extra 2 and that won't happen for a long while. It might mean the city needs to take more of a whipping role than growing role, that's all.

I have taken many pieces of advice and rechanged my strategy over and over. After all that testing, I say fishing first is better. You disagree, fine. Even though you admit to not even having tried it my way. Just please don't be condescending, it is rude. I don't need your patience, I need your consideration and decency.

Oh it's because I have played this game for 15 years, tried a lot of stupid things and learned. I can easily see it without actually playing the turns, because I've tried it already dozens of times. It's not condescending or rude, it's a fact. You need to make your own mistakes of course, but you also should listen to more experienced players. I'm sorry for not knowing how to tell you that "decently".

 

[TruePurple]

you also should listen to more experienced players. I'm sorry for not knowing how to tell you that "decently".

I did listen to you, I just disagreed with you. I can listen to you and disagree with you. It's you who are not listening because you deem me too low to be worth listening to despite the great amount of effort I have spent exploring and experimenting with this; effort you spit at with your disregarding.

In worker first, by the time you finish BW the pigs mine is done and the worker starts chopping the workboat.

No, I finish pig hill and I have a considerable number of turns left before I get fishing tech. I can not chop for workboats without the tech. So its like maybe 10 turns of pighill or 10 turns of clam with boat~ something like that. Like till the city gets to size 2 having more than one special improved tile doesn't even matter anyway and building one worker after another means no city growth. Clam means more tech which means LH earlier and other benefits. It also means trade route sooner which means more commerce sooner. Since you need sailing or roads for the trade route. Another benefit is that building the boats allows the city to grow to size 2 with two claims being worked which means faster worker and settler production along with even more research.

The exact number of turns doesn't really matter, it comes down to the extra 20 production from chopping every 3 turns,

Literally not sustainable, I do not have endless forests to chop. I will want some forest to chop so I can say get GLH which I am told and does seem very powerful with also having all oceanside cities, maybe even pyramid as well.

 

[sampsa]

I did listen to you, I just disagreed with you. I can listen to you and disagree with you. It's you who are not listening because you deem me too low to be worth listening to despite the great amount of effort I have spent exploring and experimenting with this; effort you spit at with your disregarding.

I am reading every word you write. Like I said, you need to make your own mistakes. I am telling you that your conclusion is wrong. You can choose to ignore it.

No, I finish pig hill and I have a considerable number of turns left before I get fishing tech. I can not chop for workboats without the tech. So its like maybe 10 turns of pighill or 10 turns of clam with boat~ something like that. Like till the city gets to size 2 having more than one special improved tile doesn't even matter anyway. Clam means more tech which means LH earlier and other benefits. It also means trade route sooner which means more commerce sooner. Since you need sailing or roads for the trade route. Another benefit is that building the boats allows the city to grow to size 2 with two claims being worked which means faster worker and settler production along with even more research.

You can pre-chop, you can put a chop into a settler and so on. I don't remember how the timing was, but it certainly wasn't bad.

Literally not sustainable, I do not have endless forests to chop. I will want some forest to chop so I can say get GLH which I am told and does seem very powerful with also having all oceanside cities

True, you are not chopping forests endlessly (and nobody claimed you should). You can see from my screenshot how I chopped.

 

[TruePurple]

I had no problem getting a second city in a simular amount of time doing fishing first.

 

[TruePurple]

I am reading every word you write.

Reading maybe, but not listening and especially not considering.

 

[antimony]

No, I finish pig hill and I have a considerable number of turns left before I get fishing tech. I can not chop for workboats without the tech. So its like maybe 10 turns of pighill or 10 turns of clam with boat~ something like that. Like till the city gets to size 2 having more than one special improved tile doesn't even matter anyway and building one worker after another means no city growth. Clam means more tech which means LH earlier and other benefits. It also means trade route sooner which means more commerce sooner. Since you need sailing or roads for the trade route. Another benefit is that building the boats allows the city to grow to size 2 with two claims being worked which means faster worker and settler production along with even more research.

Literally not sustainable, I do not have endless forests to chop. I will want some forest to chop so I can say get GLH which I am told and does seem very powerful with also having all oceanside cities, maybe even pyramid as well.

You're right about not chopping the workboat right away. Reading back @sampsa's post it seems he chopped settler first? Maybe I should just try to replicate it in game. It would make sense since then your worker can move to city 2 earlier and chop workboat for that fish, that way worker always has things to do and doesn't deplete the forests in city 1 as you are concerned about?

Yes worker-settler opening stays at size 1, but in your opener you grow to 2 and then whip back to 1, right? Anyway I'll try in game first.

 

[antimony]

@TruePurple

This is turn 21 with worker-settler opening.

Spoiler :

Turn 15 we get BW and finish pig mine like @sampsa said. 2 chops later and both the settler and fishing are done on T22, perfect timing. The worker will do another chop to finish first workboat, then move to city 2 to chop its workboat.

Oh also we got 27 gold from the initial hut to the west when the capital's borders expanded.

And turn 32

Spoiler :

We are working the 3 boats, went Sailing after Fishing and 1 turn away from finishing it (155/162 Sailing). I was not careful in city 2 though and could have got a bit more research by switching from forest to fish earlier, even if fish wasn't improved.

Capital is size 3, growing in 3 turns. Forest with worker is 1 turn from being chopped, could go into lighthouse next turn if that's what we want. Research is 16 / turn, with 1 gold lost by turn from city 2 upkeep.

 

[TruePurple]

T50

Spoiler :

BW-fishing-sailing-hunting-AH-archery-(masonry). Mine pigs, chop settler, boats. 3rd city for intercontinental trade routes and to grab pigs. Defence is very light (1 archer and a fog buster up north), but no barb activity yet really.

Note how I'm making more income T50 than your T74, because I have expanded so I am working much more tiles and have trade routes. And the difference will grow very rapidly from here, when my cities will grow.

View attachment 674083

Yeah I am unclear as to whether you build a second worker or a settler after your first worker with this