Freedom ideology and science victory.

[djm_jm]

I think that the freedom ideology is excelent for science victory, now in the BNW. Enough have complete racionalism, for can buy great scientists with faith and adopt que social policie in freedom, that enables buy spaceship parts with gold.

Great Scientists for quickly discover technologies in the late game. With trade routes, is possible have a great amount of gold per turno in the late game.

 

[pilot00]

Well it always was IMHO the best one for a science victory now more so with the buy parts. But IMHO the best results come by mixing it with rationalism. All those sloted specialists produce science now and if you take the tenents to decrease their unhappiness and food costs you are having even more science by freeing more food.
You also get a decent shot at the statue of liberty. A free tenent (SP) and an extra hammer for my specialists, yes please!

 

[Aaron90495]

Well it always was IMHO the best one for a science victory now more so with the buy parts. But IMHO the best results come by mixing it with rationalism. All those sloted specialists produce science now and if you take the tenents to decrease their unhappiness and food costs you are having even more science by freeing more food.
You also get a decent shot at the statue of liberty. A free tenent (SP) and an extra hammer for my specialists, yes please!

Order is great, too, if you can manage to get wide enough. Even though going wide is tougher in BNW, a high-pop wide empire will still overcome a tall one in due time. Getting to that point is another question, but if you can, Order should be the shoo-in as your Ideology choice.

 

[pilot00]

Order is great, too, if you can manage to get wide enough. Even though going wide is tougher in BNW, a high-pop wide empire will still overcome a tall one in due time. Getting to that point is another question, but if you can, Order should be the shoo-in as your Ideology choice.

Problem is (for me at last) that by the time Ideologies kick in I am at my 4th city (and lack of AI aggression makes me loath to go to war) and the rest of the map is already colonized (or reaching full status soon). 4 cities are not a good deal with Order. I tried to go Order with 4 cities and a large puppet satellite empire, but the bonus happiness discounts from the specialists and happiness + (I know they exist in order too) made even that approach more viable with freedom for me....Dunno why I was a big fan of Order in G&Ks.

Does that make sense?

 

[adwcta]

Order is not necessarily for going wide anymore. There's enough there for tall to keep you happy.

+25% science is +25% science. 3rd policy also gives +10 science in the capital, which is the equivalent of 5 specialist slots worked. AND, you can still work all the specialist slots in your capital for the NC science bonus. So, it effectively leverages your capital's science efficiency better than Freedom. Of course, to compensate... at some point you'll need to pump some food in there so that you can actually run all specialist slots.

 

[pilot00]

Order is not necessarily for going wide anymore. There's enough there for tall to keep you happy.

+25% science is +25% science. 3rd policy also gives +10 science in the capital, which is the equivalent of 5 specialist slots worked. AND, you can still work all the specialist slots in your capital for the NC science bonus. So, it effectively leverages your capital's science efficiency better than Freedom. Of course, to compensate... at some point you'll need to pump some food in there so that you can actually run all specialist slots.

See now it contradicts it purpose if you approach it that way. Because with freedom you effectively remove the happiness penalty of said specialists, you cut their food in half and effectively you gain the bonuses of order some turns later in addition to the specialists. The food cuts are send back in the pool and give you citizens empire-wide, given that you have research buildings into place even one more citizen will out match orders flat 10 science. Hospitals and such taken into account. With freedom you loose only half by using specialists and the other half is send to be processed in row pop, which means more raw science. Add the statue to this and you outmatch order completely in the specialist/science game.

 

[Browd]

The only benefits of going Order in G&K were the ability to faith buy GEs (required the order opener) and Planned Economy (quicker factories and 25% science boost) -- just two policies beyond the 6 in Rationaism (i.e., 8 post-Renaissance policies).

The criticism of going Freedom in G&K was that it required as many as 12 post-Rennaissance policies (full Rationalism and full Freedom) to get the most bang out of Freedom.

In BNW, Freedom tenets are more flexible and easier to get. Still want 6 policies in Ratoinalism and 6 tenets in Freedom, but you should be able to get 2 tenets in Freedom for "free" if you get to Industrialization and finish 3 factories before others open Freedom, and later game culture costs are lower than in G&K.

Seems like the best tenets for science VC would be to take Avant Garde (+25% GP generation) and Civil Society (1/2 specialist food) as your two free tenets (assuming you get them), then New Deal (to boost academy yields) as your first level 2 tenet, then any random level 1 tenet (perhaps Covert Action (to help keep key CS allies) or Capitalism (+1 happy from gold buildings) or Creative Expression (+1 culture from Great Works, to help motor through the policies)), then Universal Suffrage as your second level 2 tenet, and then Space Procurements (gold buy SS parts) as your final tenet. (You could circle back for another level 1 tenet, but probably don't need to.)

The path through Rationalism is bit tricker -- no longer straight down the left-hand side. But it's arguably more important to finish Rationalism earlier rather than later to open up the ability to buy GSs with faith -- perhaps fnish Rationalism after taking your first level 2 tenet in Freedom. After the Rationalism opener, do you still go with Secularism or do you take the new Humanism (+25% generation of GSs), in which case do you take Secularism second and then Free Thought? All of this is going to require some experimentation.

 

[adwcta]

See now it contradicts it purpose if you approach it that way. Because with freedom you effectively remove the happiness penalty of said specialists, you cut their food in half and effectively you gain the bonuses of order some turns later in addition to the specialists. The food cuts are send back in the pool and give you citizens empire-wide, given that you have research buildings into place even one more citizen will out match orders flat 10 science. Hospitals and such taken into account. With freedom you loose only half by using specialists and the other half is send to be processed in row pop, which means more raw science. Add the statue to this and you outmatch order completely in the specialist/science game.

What I'm saying is that with domestic trade routes, you can get ANY city to insanely high amounts of pop, so food is not necessarily = more pop. It's equal to more food. Before, in G&K's limited world... the idea is that you can't get food or grow your city BESIDES having food from the city + CSs.

Now, you can has food and as much food as you want, all only at the opportunity cost of gold. So, now, with your 18 specialist slots or however many you put in your capital, you essentially get +18 food in capital, +12 food elsewhere (assuming you have the buildings). This is really nice! But it's just food, not science, and it has diminishing returns in BNW.

You can no longer absolutely tie it to science the way you could in G&K. Is all that extra food better than +25% science (which raw amount gets higher the more population the city has)? Maybe. It depends. If you have really large tall cities? Then no, it's not better. If you have medium sized cities with all the buildings? Then yes, it is much better.

In a raw comparison between +25% science output per city, and +1 food per specialist. VERY populous cities will benefit more from +25% science than food. It's that middle zone where freedom shines, where you having enough structure to have a ton of slots, but do not have enough population to be able to sustain a specialist city.

In a maxed out (or nearly maxed out) city, where you CAN support all specialist slots, +25% flat is better than more food. That's just math.

So, perhaps unintentionally, Freedom is better for a mid-sized tall civ (or OCC), but if you have 2-4 cities and trade routes pumping food consistently throughout the game (as for a science game you should), Order is arguably better. 4 cities is probably a breaking point, since it takes 9 trade routes to constantly send food everywhere, but I'm pretty sure the math on 3-cities will work to Order's favor.

This is speaking purely about Science. Now, the Statute of Liberty is of course a different story and much better than Kremlin for a Science game.

 

[pilot00]

What I'm saying is that with domestic trade routes, you can get ANY city to insanely high amounts of pop, so food is not necessarily = more pop. It's equal to more food. Before, in G&K's limited world... the idea is that you can't get food or grow your city BESIDES having food from the city + CSs.

Yes but that tectic is not exclusive to ORder, you can do it with every ideology. In fact with the excess food from Avant and the extra from trade routs, you can boost your pop (thereby science) faster in freedom

Now, you can has food and as much food as you want, all only at the opportunity cost of gold. So, now, with your 18 specialist slots or however many you put in your capital, you essentially get +18 food in capital, +12 food elsewhere (assuming you have the buildings). This is really nice! But it's just food, not science, and it has diminishing returns in BNW.

Food is always more pop, more pop means more beakers by having the science buildings on. How is this diminishing returns? Please elaborate

EDIT: I think I got your meaning. Its more than 18 + 12 food though. Its the base yield of every specialist plus the science from rationalism (yes you can do this too in order but not without stagnating or even starving your cities), and doing so without sacrificing happiness and Pop growth, with the later translating in more beakers.

You can no longer absolutely tie it to science the way you could in G&K. Is all that extra food better than +25% science (which raw amount gets higher the more population the city has)? Maybe. It depends. If you have really large tall cities? Then no, it's not better. If you have medium sized cities with all the buildings? Then yes, it is much better.

Depends on how much extra food we are talking about and how much you will City sprawl with order and the population of your cities. We must agree on setups before we could do the actual calculus.

In a raw comparison between +25% science output per city, and +1 food per specialist. VERY populous cities will benefit more from +25% science than food. It's that middle zone where freedom shines, where you having enough structure to have a ton of slots, but do not have enough population to be able to sustain a specialist city.

If you don't have the pop to sustain the specialists and therefore go that route whats the meaning of going freedom anyway?
Also going freedom is the reason to free your food and happiness reserves and slot the specialists.

In a maxed out (or nearly maxed out) city, where you CAN support all specialist slots, +25% flat is better than more food. That's just math.

Whats a maxed out city though? With order I got as far as 35 pop but with freedom ive reached the 50s. Religion doesn't count and obviously VERY late game delayed on purpose. My direct comparison to a rushed game would be 18-20 pop for order high 30s for Freedom per city. If you mean workable tiles, you don't need those maxed out to run a specialist economy, given that you most likely will have a lot of worthless sea tiles, id rather work the slots.

So, perhaps unintentionally, Freedom is better for a mid-sized tall civ (or OCC), but if you have 2-4 cities and trade routes pumping food consistently throughout the game (as for a science game you should), Order is arguably better. 4 cities is probably a breaking point, since it takes 9 trade routes to constantly send food everywhere, but I'm pretty sure the math on 3-cities will work to Order's favor.

Cant see the last one happening easy but I don't have the necessary skills (shamelessly despite been an academic) or patience to calculate. As I said though, both can use the trade routes but Freedom gets more of bonus (in a sense) due to food consumption cuts. OFC if you have an order empire with 50 cities you will generate more science, thats a given (heck even autocracy can do this )

When all is said and done, I want to crash my head to the wall for not keeping my save on my latest game and rerol with Order to match the results.

EDIT: With the above strategy in G&Ks in never fell below 1500 beakers at 4 core cities.
With Order I usually was around 800. OFCs its a different game now.

 

[djm_jm]

Beyond this bonus in science victory, Freedom is excelent for get happiness in larger empires too, with "capitalism" and others options for happiness.

This help for conquer cities in conquest victory, though the autocracy is more appropriate for conquest victory.

 

[VainoValkea]

Freedom's the best for diplomatic victory. Arsenal of democracy gives the player 25 influence every three turns (if they keep churning units to gift, which isn't difficult at all) and Treaty organization gives 4 influence per turn for CS's they're trading with. ~12 influence points on the average towards a given City-State per turn, for minimal investment.

Apart from that, Media culture is a strong culture victory tenet (+34% tourism with broadcast towers).

For science victory, I'd actually recommend Order because they have more solid science bonuses. Freedom's only direct contribution to science victory is cheap SS parts at tier 3, although cheaper specialists are likely to be useful as well, anyway.

 

[djm_jm]

Yes, however, in general, freedom ideology is the that more brings benefits. In my opinion, autocracy is the worse, principally due the penalty with other civs and unhappiness.

 

[joncnunn]

I noticed a poster saying Order isn't just for Wide empires any more. I would agree and also state that Freedom isn't just for Tall empires any more either.

One of the level 1 tenents to Freedom gives +1 happiness for every bank, mint, and market place. This gives an incredible amount of happiness to anyone running a massive puppet empire. (If your wide empire isn't puppets it also works, but I'm mostly pointing out that puppets target exactly those buildings.)

Freedom also still has the reduced food costs running specalists as before (as a level 1 tenent); all wide empires will benefit from this; if its a puppet empire, they'll run as many merchant slots, while if you control them, chances are you are running all science & guild slots, but the type doesn't matter for this benefit.

 

[Muskie]

I seem to win by diplomacy and I think choosing your ideology to make your neighbor or main trading parter like you is a valid strategy. I also think if I absolutely wanted to win Science I'd play Babylon or one of the Civs with built in Science bonus.

Philosophically I like Freedom but prior to BNW I often went with Order, it has some production bonuses, Science victory isn't all about beakers, you also need to crank out the actual spaceship parts. I like Tradition now more in BNW for the ability to buy Great Engineers with Faith. With my Great Engineers I can then build key late game wonders that increase beakers or spaceship part production. I think that would come into play before I finished Rationalism or a Level 3 tenent of Freedom, but I'm at work and I haven't played Civ in 2 or 3 days. ;-)

 

[VainoValkea]

Yes, however, in general, freedom ideology is the that more brings benefits. In my opinion, autocracy is the worse, principally due the penalty with other civs and unhappiness.

Autocracy has, as far as I know, no more penalty or unhappiness than either Freedom or Order. It depends on who picks which ideology.

 

[Browd]

I seem to win by diplomacy and I think choosing your ideology to make your neighbor or main trading parter like you is a valid strategy. I also think if I absolutely wanted to win Science I'd play Babylon or one of the Civs with built in Science bonus.

Philosophically I like Freedom but prior to BNW I often went with Order, it has some production bonuses, Science victory isn't all about beakers, you also need to crank out the actual spaceship parts. I like Tradition now more in BNW for the ability to buy Great Engineers with Faith. With my Great Engineers I can then build key late game wonders that increase beakers or spaceship part production. I think that would come into play before I finished Rationalism or a Level 3 tenent of Freedom, but I'm at work and I haven't played Civ in 2 or 3 days. ;-)

And you can grab Freedom's Level 3 tenet Space Procurements to rush-buy SS parts. May not have enough gold to buy them all, but build a few/buy a few and you launch turns earlier.

 

[Strategist83]

I noticed a poster saying Order isn't just for Wide empires any more. I would agree and also state that Freedom isn't just for Tall empires any more either.

One of the level 1 tenents to Freedom gives +1 happiness for every bank, mint, and market place. This gives an incredible amount of happiness to anyone running a massive puppet empire. (If your wide empire isn't puppets it also works, but I'm mostly pointing out that puppets target exactly those buildings.)

Freedom also still has the reduced food costs running specalists as before (as a level 1 tenent); all wide empires will benefit from this; if its a puppet empire, they'll run as many merchant slots, while if you control them, chances are you are running all science & guild slots, but the type doesn't matter for this benefit.

None of this is really true. Freedom is still for tall empires and Order for wide. Yes, you get some happy from gold buildings, but this is mostly to offset the changes to the happy-buildings themselves which have been nerfed into oblivion (Stadium is a truly terrible investment now that one should only build if absolutely desperate for happiness with its measly +2 happy for 500 production). Much of Freedom's happiness and benefits will still come from specialists, and specialists require highly developed cities - not a wide empire strategy.

So, as a direct response to the OP's thread: Freedom isn't about whether you're going for a science victory, it's about how large your empire is. If you plan on being peaceful and aren't sitting on a lot of cities then freedom will be the correct choice regardless of what victory type you're aiming for.

 

[adwcta]

Whats a maxed out city though? With order I got as far as 35 pop but with freedom ive reached the 50s. Religion doesn't count and obviously VERY late game delayed on purpose. My direct comparison to a rushed game would be 18-20 pop for order high 30s for Freedom per city. If you mean workable tiles, you don't need those maxed out to run a specialist economy, given that you most likely will have a lot of worthless sea tiles, id rather work the slots.

This is exactly the difference between you and me. With Order, I get 50+ pop capital. Work almost all tiles and specialists. This was NOT possible in G&K, which is why Freedom was best for tall. This IS possible in BNW, which is why if you focus on growth, then Order is better for tall. There are 42 tiles in a city that are workable and some may be mountains/desert/tundra/snow/water. There's minimal science gain at HUGE cost at a certain high breakpoint right before you hit 50, but each population gives you the same yield, so the value of each food is diminished. Freedom gives you more rather useless and easily replaceable food. Order gives you raw science, which you cannot replace, and is far more efficient.

So, assuming you can do that anyway (because, you can, since I do this regularly), that's where the science gains start to favor Order over Freedom.

This is what I mean by diminishing returns of food. At first, like 8 food = 1 pop, by 50 pop, something ridiculous like 500 food = 1 pop (which is still 125 food w/ Medical Center). Same effect as diminishing returns.

Like I said, Order is better for tall science (40+)over Freedom if you're going really tall. Freedom is better for mid-sized cities (30s and below), because it lets them grow taller while working specialist slots. I've played both in BNW to science victories in Immortal/Deity. Statute of Liberty is very very nice, but the other parts of Freedom are a bit meh for a science victory. I ended up having a 50+ pop city that wasn't growing anymore, with all tiles worked and all specialist slots taken very early, so I trade post spammed my own capital... which was great for gold (and ok for science), but not better than +25% and +10 in capital. Lots of gold though, which I guess is nice, but you don't need that much gold, even if you're purchasing spaceship parts.

 

[pilot00]

I still don't understand how you are reaching 50 pop with order (consistently I get?) without religion and ToA honest before the game ends to be honest. I have reached those numbers once or twice only and that was waaaaaay late in the game.
Certainly the caravans are a huge boost but since I use them wouldn't I have reached those numbers (and earlier) with freedom in a more consistently?

Anyway I cant argue because I haven't done it (with Order). I ll give it a try, or two or three and get back to you.

I ended up having a 50+ pop city that wasn't growing anymore, with all tiles worked and all specialist slots taken very early,

But thats the point isnt it? To reach those levels earlier than the rest, support a specialist pop that will give you more of everything, tech-out faster and launch faster. To put into more context, I can tell you that the player I loose regularly in my MP games is a growth freak that always,always build that damnable ToA. Even with all religious bonuses and caravans pumping my cities he out populates me and out techs me (good thing I take the happiness wonders and he struggles a bit) forcing me to capture his capital early or all is lost.
ToA aside when Ideologies kick in and the freedom cities start their growth it happens more or less the same. Its a kill or loose proposition (though arguably, as ever several factors will kick in and probably change things but its a broad genaralisation on my part for the shake of the argument).

I had run too many times with a list of unbuild structures because my science was so far ahead that I couldn't keep pace with production. In theory I can agree that Oder can be better in the long run. Say there is no time limit and both empires grow exponentially, there will be a time were the Order bonus will indeed outpace freedom, whoever what I try to argue is this cant happen under normal circumstances in the time frame of a normal game. You simply don't have the time before the game ends.

Still as I said Ill try it, but me thinks this is more on paper (not to be offensive since you may be a lot better in the game than me and actually pull it through )

 

[Pythakoreas]

This is exactly the difference between you and me. With Order, I get 50+ pop capital. Work almost all tiles and specialists. This was NOT possible in G&K, which is why Freedom was best for tall. This IS possible in BNW, which is why if you focus on growth, then Order is better for tall. There are 42 tiles in a city that are workable and some may be mountains/desert/tundra/snow/water. There's minimal science gain at HUGE cost at a certain high breakpoint right before you hit 50, but each population gives you the same yield, so the value of each food is diminished. Freedom gives you more rather useless and easily replaceable food. Order gives you raw science, which you cannot replace, and is far more efficient.

So, assuming you can do that anyway (because, you can, since I do this regularly), that's where the science gains start to favor Order over Freedom.

This is what I mean by diminishing returns of food. At first, like 8 food = 1 pop, by 50 pop, something ridiculous like 500 food = 1 pop (which is still 125 food w/ Medical Center). Same effect as diminishing returns.

Like I said, Order is better for tall science (40+)over Freedom if you're going really tall. Freedom is better for mid-sized cities (30s and below), because it lets them grow taller while working specialist slots. I've played both in BNW to science victories in Immortal/Deity. Statute of Liberty is very very nice, but the other parts of Freedom are a bit meh for a science victory. I ended up having a 50+ pop city that wasn't growing anymore, with all tiles worked and all specialist slots taken very early, so I trade post spammed my own capital... which was great for gold (and ok for science), but not better than +25% and +10 in capital. Lots of gold though, which I guess is nice, but you don't need that much gold, even if you're purchasing spaceship parts.

Sir I will remember what you said for higher difficulties. Right now I'm new with BNW and trying to get used with it playing with my usual Korea strategy on Prince. I always get everything I want here. I try to get a river start on plains, grassland or floodplains (apparently Korea is now biased for a sea start so I check the "Disable Start Bias" box) and get the Hanging Gardens. When I'm researching Economics I get Universities in my 4 cities (Tradition 4 tall cities strategy) so I build Oxford to get Industrialization (as free tech of course). If I'm lucky enough to find Coal in my territory or my allied CSs, I build factories and pick my ideology before even finishing Aesthetics; my neighbor is still stuck in the Medieval Era. What I absolutely want to grab is Civil Society, maybe Avant Garde for my second free tenet. AI fills every specialist slot available in my capital: +2+2+50%=+6 beakers from UA, Secularism(Rationalism when I get it) and NC. 6 science for every specialist, maybe low production but growing fast as hell, (specialists and farms don't make a room for the mines, which may be softened with Statue of Liberty) Free Garden+National Epic+Avant Garde+Pisa=100% GP production in my capital. When I build my Medical Labs my capital is about 40 pop(don't forget Hanging Gardens and Tradition tree), and the rest of my cities are somewhere between 20 and 35 without using any caravans for Food/Hammer. I am not only the tech leader, but the strongest candidate for Culture/Diplomacy victories as well with Media Culture and Treaty Organisation(why get Space Procurements if you get Hubble Telescope with your huge capital?), getting Volunteer Army and Arsenal of Democracy sets me stronger than that civ who just adopted Autocracy. Last game I was crafting that last spaceship part which will get me my Space victory next turn, but an unexpected culture victory screen popped up.



I was holding the dogma that I must go Freedom for my specialist science victories. What I read on my day of registry is very interesting. Order for a 50+ pop capital science win...