Frimlin's Conquests Trait Mod

Dogmeat said:
I cant see how americans can be considered "skilled" at science. I mean with that amount of money and people devoted to science you have to be quite crappy at science if you cant come up with anything.

Can you name any of the inventions or discoveries of Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison? Orville and Wilbur Wright invented a rather useful machine. It was American Robert Goddard who invented the modern rocket, not the Germans. It takes a lot of science to get people to the Moon and back. America is also the birthplace of the Internet. Make no mistake, America owes a lot of it's success to the rest of the world - it is a nation of immigrants, after all. But to say that America hasn't come up with anything is mistaken.

Dogmeat also said:
Giving the americans the religious trait is also quite wrong. They are about as religious as most european countries and that is a small amount indeed.

I'd agree somewhat. Americans are more religious than Europeans, according to most polls. However, a casual look at American popular culture certainly indicates that religion is declining in America. The rise of the Christian conservative (AKA Religious Right) movement is a reaction to the cultural shift. America used to be far more religious than it is today, however. The writings of early Americans, such as the Founding Fathers, clearly indicate that faith was integral to American life - and formed the foundation of the political effort that birthed the Constitution, etc.

-Dearnen
 
Originally posted by Dearnen
Dogmeat said:
Can you name any of the inventions or discoveries of Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison? Orville and Wilbur Wright invented a rather useful machine. It was American Robert Goddard who invented the modern rocket, not the Germans. It takes a lot of science to get people to the Moon and back. America is also the birthplace of the Internet. Make no mistake, America owes a lot of it's success to the rest of the world - it is a nation of immigrants, after all. But to say that America hasn't come up with anything is mistaken.

I agree that USA has invented some very important things in the 19th century, but in the 20th century the most important scientists were german. Also, the brothers Wright didn't invent the airplane. Santos Dumont did. The Wright's plane couldn't take off by itself and it more of glided than actually flied.
 
Originally posted by Dearnen
But to say that America hasn't come up with anything is mistaken.


Yes that would indeed be mistaken. Luckily noone said that...

More Scientific breakthroughs would have been achieved if a scientific civilization would have americas place today.
America shouldnt be scientific. Expansionist Industrious fit in with their style much better than scientific, commercial, militaristic or any other trait.
 
Originally posted by Dogmeat



Yes that would indeed be mistaken. Luckily noone said that...

More Scientific breakthroughs would have been achieved if a scientific civilization would have americas place today.
America shouldnt be scientific. Expansionist Industrious fit in with their style much better than scientific, commercial, militaristic or any other trait.

I would like to contradict you at the moment. Industrious and expansionastic are good traits for America, however if you're going by modern standards, or at least our "golden age" which I believe would be the 20th centuary, the three best traits for America are Industrious, Scientific, and Militaristic. Here are my reasons:
Industrious: American industry was a great driving force in the 20th centuary, mass production, and many industrious innovations came from America
Scientific: First I would like to repute your statement that other countries would be better suited scientifically if they were in America's place. You don't know this, there is no way to prove this, it's your oppinion. Second, let's see all of the world-changing inventions that came out of AMERICA (these could have come from any other nation, but they came out of America). 1 The Airplane, enough said. 2. The Internet, what you're surfing right now. 3. Electricity. 4. Neuclear weapons (other countries were developing them aswell, America the first to finish them, and in Civ terms, makes them the origion of them) 5. Stealth. 6. Manned space flight (Russia was in space before us, but we were the first with humans in space). Now there is no way you can still say that America hasn't been an integral part of modern day living thru their scientific contributions to the world. We're scientific, wether you like it or not.
Lastly, Militaristic. As a side note, I calculated it, and between 1776 and 2003, America has had an average of about 1 war every 18 years, but anyway, moving on. America is deffinatly a military world power. Both world wars ended only after America came into them, America and Russia had quite a big standoff, a little thing called the cold war? Remember the threat of a neuclear holicost? Gulf War I was over before it started, once America came in. Now we're parading ourselfs around the middle east taking out dictors and people we put into power, not saying I condone that, but proving that we're a military force. As a side note and tying this to scientific, what other country has 2 stealth fighters and a stealth bomber, or a supersonic VTOL plane? (British you will say, the Harrier, it's not supersonic, the JSF, an american plane, is). Also, where is the home of the largest weapons company in the world? In america. Lockheed if you didn't know.

If we were to go back, comercial might tie in concidering the origonal colonies "main purpose" was to be a "cash cow" for Britian, they did a lot of trading as colonies, however this is a bit of a streach. Religious also fits in. America was settled by people who wanted religious freedom, many laws are based in religions, and our politics are deffinatly based in religion. Everyone of our presidents were of the same Christian faith, only JFK wasn't. He was roman catholic and everyone was worried about that because of the pope. Also, has anyone heard of the Bible Belt?

Anyway, now I'm done
 
I consider militiaristic civs to be ones who are EAGER to start wars, such as Rome or Germany. If you look back on American History you'll see that the only wars we entered intentionally were the Revolution and the Civil War, others were mainly the product of the enemy attacking us first (WW2), or being convinced by anything to enter the conflict (WW1, Vietnam). Also, just because a nation has one of the largest armies in the world does not mean it should be alotted the warmongering trait. Look at North Korea, IIRC, they have the world's third largest army (#1 being China I believe and the 2nd one escapes me), but the Koreans don't have the military trait.

Sorry if I sounded a little angry
 
Originally posted by computerdude113
6. Manned space flight (Russia was in space before us, but we were the first with humans in space).

Actually you were the first to land on the moon. Yuri Gagarin(a russian) was the first human in space.
 
Ahh, my bad
Also, to continue w/the theme of space, TMK most of the scientific telecopes (telescopes included) that orbit in space are American, NTM the mars landers and such, anyway, thanks for correcting me.
 
Originally posted by computerdude113
Ahh, my bad
Also, to continue w/the theme of space, TMK most of the scientific telecopes (telescopes included) that orbit in space are American, NTM the mars landers and such, anyway, thanks for correcting me.

That's true. While the first advances in space flight were Russian, USA has made the most modern ones. Though I think it's going a bit slower on the research than in USSR days because there's no competition.
 
Originally posted by Lord_all_Mighty
I consider militiaristic civs to be ones who are EAGER to start wars, such as Rome or Germany. If you look back on American History you'll see that the only wars we entered intentionally were the Revolution and the Civil War, others were mainly the product of the enemy attacking us first (WW2), or being convinced by anything to enter the conflict (WW1, Vietnam). Also, just because a nation has one of the largest armies in the world does not mean it should be alotted the warmongering trait. Look at North Korea, IIRC, they have the world's third largest army (#1 being China I believe and the 2nd one escapes me), but the Koreans don't have the military trait.

Sorry if I sounded a little angry

You don't sound angry, but how can you not say that America isn't a warmongering nation? Also, there are a bunch of wars that we started, Spanish American, Gufl War I and II, the new "war on terror", Korean. However my point on America being a militaristic nation extends to the fact that A) we spend more on "defense" then anything else, including education (I know that therea re other countries that do this too) B) we've had in the past 15 years 3 wars, Gulf War I and II, and the waron terror. We weren't even done in Afghanastan before we attacked Iraq. C) We have the largest stockpile of WMDs of any nation, built up from arms races. I know that you think having a large army isn't a sign of being militaristic, but having a large army that you use constiantly is. D) I believe the number is like 162 of the 192 countries recgonized by the UN the United States has a military prescence in. That might not, and is probably not the correct number, but it's something rediculious like of all the 'real' nations of the world, there are only like 30 some odd that we don't ahve our military in.
I'm sure that there was a point or two that i said earlier that i forgot to include, but i do believe that we are a warmongering nation. Someone that's not american back me up.
 
Originally posted by Androrc


That's true. While the first advances in space flight were Russian, USA has made the most modern ones. Though I think it's going a bit slower on the research than in USSR days because there's no competition.

Well now we feel threatened by China's space program, hence the speculation that Bush is going to announce that we're re-vamping our space program soon, along with the centinial of the wright bros. Dec 16 I believe it was.
 
Originally posted by Androrc


I agree that USA has invented some very important things in the 19th century, but in the 20th century the most important scientists were german. Also, the brothers Wright didn't invent the airplane. Santos Dumont did. The Wright's plane couldn't take off by itself and it more of glided than actually flied.

Actually, he invented a plane that used an existing motor to take off.
the Wright Flyer did take off on it's own, it was only guided by a track. It was flown using an engine the brothers made, and it did not mearly glide, in fact it flew into the wind, as opposed to with it. Finally, he preformed his flights in 1906, the Wright Flyer was 1903.
Also, if you look at his plane, it looks quite a bit like the Wright Flyer
 
Originally posted by computerdude113


You don't sound angry, but how can you not say that America isn't a warmongering nation? Also, there are a bunch of wars that we started, Spanish American, Gufl War I and II, the new "war on terror", Korean. However my point on America being a militaristic nation extends to the fact that A) we spend more on "defense" then anything else, including education (I know that therea re other countries that do this too) B) we've had in the past 15 years 3 wars, Gulf War I and II, and the waron terror. We weren't even done in Afghanastan before we attacked Iraq. C) We have the largest stockpile of WMDs of any nation, built up from arms races. I know that you think having a large army isn't a sign of being militaristic, but having a large army that you use constiantly is. D) I believe the number is like 162 of the 192 countries recgonized by the UN the United States has a military prescence in. That might not, and is probably not the correct number, but it's something rediculious like of all the 'real' nations of the world, there are only like 30 some odd that we don't ahve our military in.
I'm sure that there was a point or two that i said earlier that i forgot to include, but i do believe that we are a warmongering nation. Someone that's not american back me up.

I think you are very right. USA has military bases even in Cuba! Also, USA has done war with almost every country in the world...The War of Intervention in Russia after WWI, when it conquered the north of Mexico, against England not only during the Independence War, but during the Napoleonic Wars, against Germany in both WWs, against Yugoslavia in Kosovo, and many, many others.
 
While the US certainly has a powerful military and has been in quite a number of wars, it is not accurate to call America militaristic.

Computerdude said:
Also, there are a bunch of wars that we started, Spanish American, Gufl War I and II, the new "war on terror", Korean.

Of these, only the Spanish American war might have been started by America. However, it is important to remember that while the explosion of the USS Maine is now known to have been accidental, at the time tensions between America and Spain were high, so it didn't take much to get out of hand. The First Gulf War was started by Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The Second Gulf War is merely one front in the overall "war on terror", which actually began about 3 decades ago. Islamic terrorists started it with small attacks that slowly escelated over the years. Everyone merely got used to it and didn't realize it was a real war until the Towers fell. Apparently there are many people who still don't see, or don't want to see, what's really going on. Also, the Second Gulf War was technically a resumption of the First War since Iraq had never fulfilled its obligations as agreed to at the end of the first war. The Korean war was started by the North Korean invasion of South Korea.

-Dearnen
 
Originally posted by Dearnen
While the US certainly has a powerful military and has been in quite a number of wars, it is not accurate to call America militaristic.

Computerdude said:


Of these, only the Spanish American war might have been started by America. However, it is important to remember that while the explosion of the USS Maine is now known to have been accidental, at the time tensions between America and Spain were high, so it didn't take much to get out of hand. The First Gulf War was started by Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The Second Gulf War is merely one front in the overall "war on terror", which actually began about 3 decades ago. Islamic terrorists started it with small attacks that slowly escelated over the years. Everyone merely got used to it and didn't realize it was a real war until the Towers fell. Apparently there are many people who still don't see, or don't want to see, what's really going on. Also, the Second Gulf War was technically a resumption of the First War since Iraq had never fulfilled its obligations as agreed to at the end of the first war. The Korean war was started by the North Korean invasion of South Korea.

-Dearnen

Yes, Golf War I and Korean weren't started by USA, but it intervened. It could've been out of them, but still it decided to intervene to make sure it's interests would be best served.

About the so-called 'War on Terror' there was no reason to believe Saddam Hussein had any involvement with Al Qaeda, nor that he had WMDs, and neither has been proven, even after months(almost a year) that the war has finished. USA invaded Iraq deliberatly. Also, don't you think it's too much of a coincidence that Iraq has one of the largest oil reserves and Afghanistan is the ideal place for an oilduct from the most oil-rich countries?
 
I don't think anyone wants to turn this thread into another battle zone over whether the US was justified to invade Iraq. But, the issue is simple. Whether or not Saddam Hussein was involved with al Qaeda is irrelevent, as you know, since the war is not against al Qaeda alone. Since the beginning, it has been repeated daily that the war is against all terrorist organizations with an aim against the US and any nation that in any way aids or supports them. Secondly, whether Iraq had WMDs was never questioned before the Bush administration began making its case for war. The Clinton administration, the United Nations, humanitarian organizitions, all agreed that Saddam had WMDs, sought to build more, had never fulfilled his cease fire obligations, and continued to stall efforts to bring Iraq into compliance. Isn't it quite a coincidence that no one questioned Saddam's WMDs until Bush (the "unelected") wanted to finally do something about it? It seems to me that the real root of the opposition to the war has nothing to do with the reality of what's going on in Iraq, but what's going on in America. Many people hate Bush; he's a conservative, a Christian, and a Southerner. Of course, this is simple minded intolerance and bigotry, and it has clouded a lot of thinking and effected the information made available to the public. We all need to think critically about what we hear and see; don't merely accept what either the White House or the media tells us.

-Dearnen
 
Originally posted by Dearnen
I don't think anyone wants to turn this thread into another battle zone over whether the US was justified to invade Iraq. But, the issue is simple. Whether or not Saddam Hussein was involved with al Qaeda is irrelevent, as you know, since the war is not against al Qaeda alone. Since the beginning, it has been repeated daily that the war is against all terrorist organizations with an aim against the US and any nation that in any way aids or supports them. Secondly, whether Iraq had WMDs was never questioned before the Bush administration began making its case for war. The Clinton administration, the United Nations, humanitarian organizitions, all agreed that Saddam had WMDs, sought to build more, had never fulfilled his cease fire obligations, and continued to stall efforts to bring Iraq into compliance. Isn't it quite a coincidence that no one questioned Saddam's WMDs until Bush (the "unelected") wanted to finally do something about it? It seems to me that the real root of the opposition to the war has nothing to do with the reality of what's going on in Iraq, but what's going on in America. Many people hate Bush; he's a conservative, a Christian, and a Southerner. Of course, this is simple minded intolerance and bigotry, and it has clouded a lot of thinking and effected the information made available to the public. We all need to think critically about what we hear and see; don't merely accept what either the White House or the media tells us.

-Dearnen

1) USA has lots and lots of WMDs. Why can't Iraq have? Also, what I really regret is not only the war itself, but that US is governing the country. There's no need for this provisory government anymore. Saddam is captured. Also, the US is privatizing state things in Iraq, which will place it even more under US's rule.

2) Bush is hated worldwide. Not only in USA. But I agree completely with what you said about thinking critically. I think that even if the person has a rightist or leftist opinion, that opinion must be founded on what the person really thinks, not on what it is told.

3) As for giving USA the militaristic trait, I would think that the most adequate would instead be giving it Expansionist, Industrious and highest agression level, since it is at war so frequently and with so many nations, but it's military is more of a consequence of it's industriousnes. It's not a military founded on new and unique aspects which make it good(like Rome has), it actually gains by quantity of weapons.
 
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