Frimlin's Conquests Trait Mod

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Androrc


What is impressive is their wartime easiness to change from simple consumer products production to production of guns, tanks, airplanes, etc.

And isn't that special enough to make them industrious?

England could have industrious to, but because of the importance and the period of time of England they have other traits that are more right for them.

Russia had a great industry during the Cold War indeed, lasting merely 40 years. That of the USA was well before WW1 an impressive industry. And lasting to this day. And the USA had/has very much mass production, like the T-Ford and things like that.

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by Tavenier
And isn't that special enough to make them industrious?

No, it should make them militaristic, since then military buildings would be cheaper and etc., simulating their easiness to change production in wartime.

England could have industrious to, but because of the importance and the period of time of England they have other traits that are more right for them.

Russia had a great industry during the Cold War indeed, lasting merely 40 years. That of the USA was well before WW1 an impressive industry.

Not really. USA's industry was not impressive well before WW1. It was already a power from the middle to end of the XIX century, yes, but only another power, and didn't have any chance to defeat Germany, Britain or France in Europe. In WW1, remember they didn't win the war exactly, it was an equilibrated war, and USA's extra troops helped to break that balance. That's the only reason it proved decisive. In WW2, USA only won the war against Japan and liberated western European countries, while Russia defeated Germany and took Berlin and all of eastern Germany. By taking Berlin, Russia won the war in Europe.

And lasting to this day.

Well, but then again, you could argue the same thing for Germany if we lived in the XIX century.

And the USA had/has very much mass production, like the T-Ford and things like that.

There's a technology and a city improvement in the game to represent that. To simulate that, all a civ would have to do is research and build it in many cities.

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Androrc



Not really. USA's industry was not impressive well before WW1. It was already a power from the middle to end of the XIX century, yes, but only another power, and didn't have any chance to defeat Germany, Britain or France in Europe. In WW1, remember they didn't win the war exactly, it was an equilibrated war, and USA's extra troops helped to break that balance. That's the only reason it proved decisive. In WW2, USA only won the war against Japan and liberated western European countries, while Russia defeated Germany and took Berlin and all of eastern Germany. By taking Berlin, Russia won the war in Europe.

.

This comment of you exactly points out that America shouldn't be militaristic. I don't know, honestly, what your point is.

Because of the industry they can build a large military force (and by sheer number of inhabitants, of course). If I think about the USA I don't think about things like military tradition, military codes, or stuff like that. Of course they have them, but so does any other nation. Japan or Germany (or rather Prussia) or Sparta makes me think about militarism. Their whole society was based on that. America's society is a mass consumption society and so relies on a large industry to satisfy the needs of the consumers.

 

[Tavenier]

And I don't see why the Russian occupation of Berlin is better then the allied liberation of France, Italy, the Benelux and the defeat of Japan and conquest of the better part of Germany.

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by Tavenier



This comment of you exactly points out that America shouldn't be militaristic. I don't know, honestly, what your point is.

Because of the industry they can build a large military force (and by sheer number of inhabitants, of course). If I think about the USA I don't think about things like military tradition, military codes, or stuff like that. Of course they have them, but so does any other nation. Japan or Germany (or rather Prussia) or Sparta makes me think about militarism. Their whole society was based on that. America's society is a mass consumption society and so relies on a large industry to satisfy the needs of the consumers.

IMHO the simple fact that USA has been at war with almost every country in the world would make them militaristic. But you have a good point there about it being industrious. I think it should be industrious and militaristic.

And I don't see why the Russian occupation of Berlin is better then the allied liberation of France, Italy, the Benelux and the defeat of Japan and conquest of the better part of Germany.

Because eventually Russia would have liberated all of Europe, the US had to rush in it's campaign in Europe to not let western Europe be put under Russia's control. Look at it like this: Germany was the main power of the axis and Russia defeated it, therefore ending all possibilites of the continuation of WWII in Europe. The defeat of Japan is nothing near the defeat of Germany, although it's overvalued by the 'west' because statamericans did that. Just like Waterloo is overvalued, when who really won the war against Napoleon was Russia, when he invaded it.

 

[Tavenier]

I see what you mean, with the defeat of Germany. And indeed was Germany much more difficult then Japan to defeat.
And indeed Russia is the number 1 winner of WW2 IMHO. And they paid the highest price for it.


But what do you mean with the USA have been at war with almost everybody? I'd rather say England or France dod that, not the USA.
Correct me if I am wrong but they haven't been at war with most African countries, Oceanic countries, Indonesia, Mongolia, most of Western Europe (except Spain and England), Eastern Europe, Russia (they never really had war, only Cold War), and so on.
If I have to name countries not having a war with England or France in the past the list would be shorter. And they both aren't militaristic in Civ3.

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by Tavenier
I see what you mean, with the defeat of Germany. And indeed was Germany much more difficult then Japan to defeat.
And indeed Russia is the number 1 winner of WW2 IMHO. And they paid the highest price for it.


But what do you mean with the USA have been at war with almost everybody? I'd rather say England or France dod that, not the USA.
Correct me if I am wrong but they haven't been at war with most African countries, Oceanic countries, Indonesia, Mongolia, most of Western Europe (except Spain and England), Eastern Europe, Russia (they never really had war, only Cold War), and so on.
If I have to name countries not having a war with England or France in the past the list would be shorter. And they both aren't militaristic in Civ3.

USA has been at war in Europe with: England, Spain, Germany(of course, hehe), Italy, Yugoslavia(or was it already called serbia at that time?) and Russia(during the war of intervention just after WW1).

At America it has been at war with Mexico, Granada, many central american nations, and incited many revolutions, like the one that split Panama from Colombia. Not to mention it finance the many military coups all over latin america.

At Asia, they've been at war with Iraq, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Japan. Not to mention it made an outpost in the middle east called Israel.

I can't really remember any African or Oceanic ones... although there were many African ones they fought with.

I think I might have missed many countries... But well, there's a list.

Now, if I were to list the number of places they intervened indirectly I would perhaps have almost all countries in the world.

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Androrc


USA has been at war in Europe with: England, Spain, Germany(of course, hehe), Italy, Yugoslavia(or was it already called serbia at that time?) and Russia(during the war of intervention just after WW1).

At America it has been at war with Mexico, Granada, many central american nations, and incited many revolutions, like the one that split Panama from Colombia. Not to mention it finance the many military coups all over latin america.

At Asia, they've been at war with Iraq, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Japan. Not to mention it made an outpost in the middle east called Israel.

I can't really remember any African or Oceanic ones... although there were many African ones they fought with.

I think I might have missed many countries... But well, there's a list.

Now, if I were to list the number of places they intervened indirectly I would perhaps have almost all countries in the world.

It is indeed still an impressive list. And I forgot about that Russian intervention after WW1.
But still countries like England or France had fought more wars against more opponents. And not only because they existed longer. Most of those wars were in the last 4 centuries.
I think Civ3 intends not to see how many wars have been fought or won. I think it is more about what role militarism plays in society. It plays a large role in the US, but again nothing compared to what role it played it Mongolia, Japan or Sparta. Religion did and still does play a large role in the USA. All discussions about abortion and things like that have a very religious background. And if I am not mistaken the largest non-European minority in the USA are from Latin America. Those peoples mostly are devout catholics which adds to the discussion US trait should be religious.

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by Tavenier





It is indeed still an impressive list. And I forgot about that Russian intervention after WW1.
But still countries like England or France had fought more wars against more opponents. And not only because they existed longer. Most of those wars were in the last 4 centuries.
I think Civ3 intends not to see how many wars have been fought or won. I think it is more about what role militarism plays in society. It plays a large role in the US, but again nothing compared to what role it played it Mongolia, Japan or Sparta. Religion did and still does play a large role in the USA. All discussions about abortion and things like that have a very religious background. And if I am not mistaken the largest non-European minority in the USA are from Latin America. Those peoples mostly are devout catholics which adds to the discussion US trait should be religious.

Yes you are right. France and England were very imperialistic in their day. Maybe you are right about that religious thing...Then what should be done then is make it's agression lvl go a bit up, and the same should be done to England and France too(I never really understood why in normal civ3 France was almost with the lesser agression...)

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Androrc


Yes you are right. France and England were very imperialistic in their day. Maybe you are right about that religious thing...Then what should be done then is make it's agression lvl go a bit up, and the same should be done to England and France too(I never really understood why in normal civ3 France was almost with the lesser agression...)

That would indeed be a good solution. Make them more aggressive.
I think level 1 for the French is too low, but it shouldn't be higher then 3. Napoleon or Louis XIV were warmongers, but also a lot of peaceful things came from France. The theory of power to the people (Liberté, Equalité et Fraternité) is peaceful, although in practice the guillotine was all but very peaceful.
Fact still is that the French, of all colonizers, was relatively the most peaceful one. I think they like no other tried to co-exist with the natives and in French colonies it was not rare for natives to go up the social ladder too.

English aggressive level should be 4.

 

[Frimlin]

Darn, I wrote up a long reply but the server was busy and it was lost!

Basically, in my current unreleased version, I've made the following changes:

Britain - Seafaring & Industrious - (Yes, quite a big change! Not sure I'm 100% happy yet, though!)

America - Religious & Industrious - Aggression increased. (Still not completely convinced Industrious is right for them. No I haven't given into pressure to make them Industrious -- I'm just testing it! Definitely no plans to remove the Religious trait, though. Interestingly we "all" came to the same conclusion about trying to make them more Aggressive rather than Militaristic. Unfortunately this does make them exceptionally hard to deal with. They're very focused on themselves. But perhaps that's apt? No, that's not meant as anti-American as it might sound. Believe it or not, I am trying to be diplomatic!)

Inca - Expansionistic & Religious - (Removed Industrious, but it kinda makes me whimper to think about it... so I'm not sure yet.)

Carthage - Expansionistic & Commercial - (Removed Industrious.)

Netherlands - Seafaring & Commercial - (Removed Agricultural, though I'm not completely happy about doing so. Would their Agricultural trait have been so high if their available farmland had been so low? Does that kind of question really matter? Afterall, every Civ was affected by the place it "grew up" in.)

I fiddled around with the Explorer and made him a lot more useful. Not sure the AI will be able to take full advantage of the new unit, though. But perhaps it's better than a unit that most people, including the AI, avoid anyhow.

I'll probably remove all non-trait specific changes from this mod, though. And then I'll release a new mod that has just whatever change I like in it -- rather than a trait-specific mod with a few, perhaps unwanted, "extras" as it is now.

One question though -- people give a lot of comments but nobody says anything like "I'm actually really enjoying some of the changes in this mod!" Does anyone? I hope so. I do!

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Frimlin
Darn, I wrote up a long reply but the server was busy and it was lost!

Basically, in my current unreleased version, I've made the following changes:

Britain - Seafaring & Industrious - (Yes, quite a big change! Not sure I'm 100% happy yet, though!)

America - Religious & Industrious - Aggression increased. (Still not completely convinced Industrious is right for them. No I haven't given into pressure to make them Industrious -- I'm just testing it! Definitely no plans to remove the Religious trait, though. Interestingly we "all" came to the same conclusion about trying to make them more Aggressive rather than Militaristic. Unfortunately this does make them exceptionally hard to deal with. They're very focused on themselves. But perhaps that's apt? No, that's not meant as anti-American as it might sound. Believe it or not, I am trying to be diplomatic!)

Inca - Expansionistic & Religious - (Removed Industrious, but it kinda makes me whimper to think about it... so I'm not sure yet.)

Carthage - Expansionistic & Commercial - (Removed Industrious.)

Netherlands - Seafaring & Commercial - (Removed Agricultural, though I'm not completely happy about doing so. Would their Agricultural trait have been so high if their available farmland had been so low? Does that kind of question really matter? Afterall, every Civ was affected by the place it "grew up" in.)

I fiddled around with the Explorer and made him a lot more useful. Not sure the AI will be able to take full advantage of the new unit, though. But perhaps it's better than a unit that most people, including the AI, avoid anyhow.

I'll probably remove all non-trait specific changes from this mod, though. And then I'll release a new mod that has just whatever change I like in it -- rather than a trait-specific mod with a few, perhaps unwanted, "extras" as it is now.

One question though -- people give a lot of comments but nobody says anything like "I'm actually really enjoying some of the changes in this mod!" Does anyone? I hope so. I do!

My dear Frimlin. I think I speak for all us if I tell you we are happy with your mod! (Better?)

Since you changed the Dutch I am happy. It was silly for the Dutch not being commercial. That's like not making the British Seafaring.

 

[Frimlin]

heheh! Thanks.

I know it's not exactly the most fantastic mod in the world, and it didn't exactly take weeks and weeks of development time... but it is nice to see the mod is enjoyed, all the same.

Well, I admit I was against Britain being Seafaring. But I see the "Seafaring" trait as being a kind of a mixture between a Commercial bonus, and an Expansion bonus -- and that suited Britain.

Afterall, the trait names are simply "pretty names." If we were being purely pedantic about it, Religious would be "Culture Bonus," Expansionist would be "Growth Bonus" ...etc

 

[Androrc]

I really, really liked the new changes

 

[Adam(CZ)]

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inscribe on my e-mail and i send map is best
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[Frimlin]

Cool.

By the way, sorry to everyone that I haven't released a new version for a while -- I've been distracted by busy times at work.

I'm working at a games development company called Lionhead Studios, on a game called "The Movies." If you're in the US, check out my photo in the February edition of "Game Informer."

Please someone tell me they've seen it!

Our "The Movies" site is at: http://www.themoviesgame.com/

And you can see us working on the game by visiting our webcams at: http://www.lhtimes.com/ (click on "The Movies" link).

I promise to release a new version of the mod soon! Possibly not before my birthday on the 25th, though...