G-Major 117

[TheMeInTeam]

IMO AGG AI + mix of low and high peaceweight AI will go a long way towards "just winning" this gauntlet. AGG AI + mix in AI unlikely to pursue culture means one of the greatest threats is negated...and conflicting leaders will nerf down the tech pace via trades.

Anyone having trouble with barbs? Raging deity is usually hard, but I'm not sure that would be the case on a crowded map on quick speed.

"This sure would come in handy..."

 

[Bugio]

WC can be built on t1 if you settle on horses. Fast workers are just huge on fast ESPECIALLY on conquest where chpping out units is everything. Other UU obsolete too fast or come too late to make a difference. I'm intrigued by self tech MC and bulb machinery with Sitting bull, not sure if it's doable with raging barbs though

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Problem is, on large/quick/deity you just can't reach that far before AI gets situated, and then you're quite far behind.

Still, I might indeed run a good Cyrus rush with immortals as it would fit my later plans nicely to have some good veteran troops available.

 

[Seraiel]

I think you value UU way too much, traits and/or fast workers will help you a lot more. Catafracts are awesome but waiting for knights i don't think it's competitive.

I hate to say this, but CIV is imo mostly about unique units, especially if the Victory Condition shall be Conquest (or Domination) .

War Chariots / Immortals are (almost like) Horse-Archers that cost only half and are available from the start, instead of 1k-1.5ky later. Ok, the Ballista-Elephant isn't that great, I admit, but that's because the normal War-Elephants are already imbalanced, the cheaper (and again earlier available) Praets even more, and the Quechua brakes the whole game.

I think, it's about deciding when one can make a breakthrough and push straight towards Victory.

What leader would you advise / choose? Say why or whatever you think .

Sera

P.S.: Fast Workers aren't such a big deal in this game, as one will capture tons of workers. That's one argument I had aganist Isabella. Starting with an Archer and easily accessable Horse-Archers (by assuring that horses are in the BFC) make building workers absolutely superflous.

Ok, first I have to apologize to Bugio, because I just got a map, where I started in the corner, and could peacefully expand to 8 (!) Mega cities! If I would have played Catherine, I could have gotten 10 and would have simply out-expanded the AI *cough* .

More land means more power, so, in this case, her traits would have been THE deal.

Therefor, I'll send the list to him.

Pangaea map is required for this gauntlet, so Boreal can not be used.

Classical Era start only counts in Rock of Ages for EQM. I believe that QM allows all Eras, but I'm not sure (didn't see anything the overall tab or formula tab about it).

I believe that Horse Archers might be effective in capturing a few cities. I do expect that the game will end with Knights to Cavalry. Foot soldiers are an option too, but need roads and Engineering to get the front fast enough to not become obsolete in transit. I would also not be surprised if the game ended with Canons.

War Chariots can be built starting in t2 or t4, when settling next to horse with the worker building the pasture in 3t and in the absence of a river to the capital building a road in 2t. There is also the option of settling on Horse and building War Chariots starting t0, but a horse pasture is great hammer plot to work, so I'd advise against this option.

I have tried Praetorians with the idea of spamming cities early while either researching Mathematics to trade for Iron Working or research Iron Working -> Mathematics, but I haven't been able to keep research high enough to continue much beyond Construction and Metal Casting before AIs get to Feudalism or Machinery.

Sun Tzu Wu

Praets are imho on Quick, they're already not the real deal on normal. War Chariots are awesome, no dought about that, but with classical starts, Horse Archers are available so easily, that the only benefit of the War Chariots really is, that they're far cheaper.

Also: Huge maps don't really favor building immediate troops from 1 city imho, as I saw on the map mentioned in the beginning.

Anyhow, I might still try egypt, because I just found out about that huge expansion map. CRE + SPI are great traits at last, I still think, that Cathy would be really good for this task.

I need to know if you're playing this Gauntlet, if you do, I'll also send you the list of opponents.

And at last: I know that you don't have that much experience with Quick Conquest victories, but you no dought have experience with quick games. Are you really thinking Cannons could be possible?

Sera

IMO AGG AI + mix of low and high peaceweight AI will go a long way towards "just winning" this gauntlet. AGG AI + mix in AI unlikely to pursue culture means one of the greatest threats is negated...and conflicting leaders will nerf down the tech pace via trades.

Anyone having trouble with barbs? Raging deity is usually hard, but I'm not sure that would be the case on a crowded map on quick speed.

"This sure would come in handy..."

This is really good info . Didn't think of crouded maps making it more easy, I'll adapt to this.

WC can be built on t1 if you settle on horses. Fast workers are just huge on fast ESPECIALLY on conquest where chpping out units is everything. Other UU obsolete too fast or come too late to make a difference. I'm intrigued by self tech MC and bulb machinery with Sitting bull, not sure if it's doable with raging barbs though

This is said towards me claiming, that building Workers with these settings is almost unnecessary.

See, I'm now not saying "totally superflous" again .

Ghandi's Traits are SPI + Philosophical. Now I have to find out, if I need that Philosphical to reach Cuirrassiers first, if I don't, Isabella will be the better leader, or Catherine will, if there is enough room to peacefully expand, at least that's what I'm guessing right now.

Problem is, on large/quick/deity you just can't reach that far before AI gets situated, and then you're quite far behind.

Still, I might indeed run a good Cyrus rush with immortals as it would fit my later plans nicely to have some good veteran troops available.

Have to compile the list new for 12 opponents, but then I'll send it to all of you 3, if SunTzuWu will be playing this Gauntlet, which he still has to say .

Hope you'll enjoy the combination, and have fun with it .

Got something to laugh for you btw.:

1st Gauntlet I play, thought the map I was playing was a winner map, tons of room to expand, 3 techs from huts, 2 Gold + 3 Food + Marble...

Did neither choose Raging Barbs, nor No Huts, nor No Random Events .

Hope you're doing better

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Seraiel:

Please carefully check settings. You are mentioning several things that don't match the settings. For example, I'm not sure whether you are mentioning Huge to compare to the required Large map setting. Also, No Tribal Villages must checked; there must be no huts in the submitted game. And No Events must be unchecked.

Yes, I am playing in this gauntlet, but that doesn't mean 100% that I will submit a game. These are tough settings win an early victory with.

I have some experience with quick domination games, but nothing on a map this large, which can be harder to win than conquest.

Yes, Canons are quite possible for this gauntlet via multiple Great Scientist bulbs:

Philosophy, Paper, Education (2 GSs), Chemistry (2 GS).
This order allows early Pacifism from early Philosophy. Note that this requires 4 GS bulbs before starting to research Gunpowder which can be very difficult to do (may require the Philosophical trait).

or

Paper, Education (2 GSs), Philosophy, Chemistry (2 GSs).
This path requires only 3 GS bulbs prior to researching Gunpowder.

Avoid Meditation to delay Philosophy bulb until ready to start Liberalism. Oops, can't do this with Classical Era start as Seraiel pointed out below; Avoid Drama & Code of Laws until Paper is bulbed. Can build/capture Schwedagon Paya to run Pacifism without knowing Philosophy early on.

Use first to Liberalism for Steel. Spam Cannons. Use Suleiman and build Janissaries after Gunpowder. Or use Zara Yaqob and build Oromo Warriors after Gunpower (lacking Philosophical trait means National Epic is good to replace it with). The Great Library can also be useful in the NE city to avoid using Caste System for example.

Other comments:

There are many good leaders to use for this gauntlet for many different good reasons.

I do like the Creative trait for this gauntlet. The Imperialistic is also good for spamming Settlers and extra Great Generals.

I haven't tried the Aggressive AI trait yet, but that will slow down the AIs tech rate and increase the numbers of military units. Those extra military units with be cut down by seige and may even be less advanced units due to the lower tech rate.

TheMeInTeam's other suggestion of half low and half high peaceweight opponents is very good. You want them fighting each other and then you capture what's left.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

Sun TZu Wu:

Avoiding Meditation doesn't work with classical starts ^^

Checked the settings multiple times, hope they're correct.

Ghandi btw plays really nice. One doesn't even need to send Garrisons with the Settlers, but just Fast Workers, that can withdraw from Barbs with their extra move if gone too far and by that guide the Settler.

Anyhow, I'm tired now, gonna start with a really good start tomorrow, should know enough about the settings now.

Gn8 mates.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

IMO AGG AI + mix of low and high peaceweight AI will go a long way towards "just winning" this gauntlet. AGG AI + mix in AI unlikely to pursue culture means one of the greatest threats is negated...and conflicting leaders will nerf down the tech pace via trades.

Agree 100%. The mix probably doesn't have to be exactly 50%/50% either; 65%/35% or 35%/65% may not be lopsided enough to tip the balance either way. I like to have more high peaceweight opponents, since they don't build quite as many units. On the other hand, 35%/65% might be better, because chewing up the lower peaceweight units might be easy, because they are presumably lower technology units, eventually. I'm only guessing here; maybe 50/50 is best.

Anyone having trouble with barbs? Raging deity is usually hard, but I'm not sure that would be the case on a crowded map on quick speed.

Even with minimum (8) opponents, I could easily deal with the land barbs, since one can ensure easy access to Horse or Copper in the start. Also, Archers can be built which can stop the barbs too when fortified on hills or forest/jungle plots.

With maximum (14) opponents, there should not be a lot of land left that can spawn barbs, after 2 x 14 + 1 = 29 cities are founded.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

On the other hand, 35%/65% might be better, because chewing up the lower peaceweight units might be easy, because they are presumably lower technology units, eventually. I'm only guessing here; maybe 50/50 is best.

I have no idea either. I don't think anybody has taken massive amounts of data looking for breakpoint runaway AIs with noise factors canceled out, because there are a LOT of noise factors including one's own play quality which varies game-to-game ^_^...but that is far from the only factor. Spawn position, when war is declared, what the lesser #'s tech first, strategic resource distribution...IMO it's to the point that it's not even worth trying to single out each noise factor.

 

[Bugio]

I had a very good map with Ramesses, but my attack failed cause gandhi bribed two ais on me. That tells you i'm not really experienced with this high level. :/ War Chariots last 2 AIs max maybe with extremely good micro and pillaging you can add a third but i doubt it.

 

[FiveRings]

These settings are very much beyond me - I am playing mostly Warlord and seem to be somewhere between Monarch and Emperor levels (having achieved a GotM victory at Immortal, though).

Nevertheless, I have spent some time on a dozen beginnings. The barbs are nasty but their nastiness varies quite a lot. Also, the distance to the AIs and the type of terrain - hinting at jungles, and a lot of them in most cases.

Classic start makes a lot of difference and I am not sure most of the well-known strategies will help. My guess is that the usual pros&cons related to leader traits and UU and UB will change a lot, too, under this type of start. Somehow I can't see a "normal" conquest victory within the age of mounted units under the specified settings, but this is also level-of-play based, I guess.

The choice of leader/civ and of the AI opponents seems crucial. Thanks for the insights, esp. the one related to the use of a mix of AIs. I can also see the importance of a torroidal map+solid coastline. It seems that getting the max of AI's number might prove crucial, too, as this might allow - with the right neighbors - to start expansion based on conquest fast enough and carry it out systematically. In my experience, any early UUs of mine are more than met by the pikes and maces coming up very, very quickly.

 

[Seraiel]

I have no idea either. I don't think anybody has taken massive amounts of data looking for breakpoint runaway AIs with noise factors canceled out, because there are a LOT of noise factors including one's own play quality which varies game-to-game ^_^...but that is far from the only factor. Spawn position, when war is declared, what the lesser #'s tech first, strategic resource distribution...IMO it's to the point that it's not even worth trying to single out each noise factor.

I have played enough Domination / Conquest games and observed them well enough to know that 50/50 is not ideal, but somewhere near 25/75 is, IF, one assures that the (normally underdeveloped) "Bad"-AIs have a tech to war efficiently with (i. e. Construction) + the necessary Ressource (Ivory) . Under these circumstances, I have seen someone like Brennus already fight 5 AIs for more than 1500y before Vassaling.

 

[Seraiel]

Ány "in-between results" already" ? I got a good map, unfortunately no "micro" -Pangea. Made a double Workersteal in the beginning, but lost 2 (hills- !) Archers to Barbarians. Anyhow, I'll play that map, because even with max opponents, I managed to REX to 5 cities. There's land for 1 more and 1 Barb-city I'm just preparing to take, so I could somehow make it to the magic number of 7 cities .

Best move 'til now: I bribed Peter against Lincoln, causing Lincoln to bribe 4 AIs against Peter . Brennus would have been bribable against various targets, but Peter was so nice to bribe him for me . Peter himself is far away, why I joined the war against him for diplo-points. Diplomacy is quite difficult in that game 'til now. My "always-friends" Hatty and Ramesses have different Religions, on plus some that noone shares, and I haven't discovered Mansa 'til now.

The REX to so many cities crippled my Research quite a lot, but with 3 Golds, how can I complain.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm still trying to get my setup working. I won't have any "in between" unless I fail a game, since I'll be playing it in one sitting as usual most likely.

 

[Seraiel]

Omfg. One Session for me is 1h, sometimes 2, sometimes 3, but afterwards, I'm destroyed! If there weren't these forums, and the people to talk to, I'd be in deep trouble, because 1 game would take me a month, causing me therapy afterwards . Have to watch your vids at some time, heard a lot about how fast you play, and then there's your guide. Even though we're both Phils, we're really different at some point, you somehow seem to be some fast and dark opposite of me .

Which leader are you playing atm. , and what's the problem with the setup 'til now?

Ser

 

[Bugio]

Couple of failed attempt here with egypt. My goal is to get 2 ais down with war chariot and use land advantage to win lib and destroy with cuirassers, but facing walls and metal units does not help. I might try something else.

 

[Seraiel]

Taking down 2 Civs with only War Chariots is possible up to my experience, but it requires a lot of coordination and luck with AIs having no strategic Ressources on top. Metal units and Walls + Hills cities are absolute no goes. Maybe try to cripple those AIs and sue for peace (getting techs for peace is really easy on faster speeds) or choke them from the beginning with your Archer.

I'm having serious trouble with the Raging Barbs atm. They seem to have a hidden combat bonus, that isn't shown. Just lost 3 HAs to a non-hills non-walls city, that should have had 80% chances. When reading the combat log however, they only got 70%, which is still good enough so 2/3 units could have won, but my bad luck was even worse. 3 AI-Archers were waiting, and of course, they all attacked the remaining troops and it was Lincoln, who stole that city. DoWed him, as he's in serios trouble, hope he won't switch targets from Peter towards me. Bribing someone against me is impossible or doesn't really matter, as all AIs are either in war or in WHEOOHRN atm.

I'm also thinking about making a major breakthrough with Cuirrassiers. Should be quite manageble, as I have a monopoly on Paper + enough Gold to research Education with 100%. Producing enough troops is a big difficulty on my map though, as I even have to spread Religion myself. Also no Heroic Epic til now, but maybe I can get some xp by harrassing Lincoln. T50 atm. and winning a war would be absolutely impossible with that much Ressources spent to peaceful expansion.

Btw.: Barb-Galleys are the worst .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Which leader are you playing atm. , and what's the problem with the setup 'til now?

Hardware issues. I bought a new monitor but it broke my linux build of WINE for games somewhere along the lines. A clean install seems to have resolved the issue, however I must still reinstall and reconfigure civ IV and BUFFY. Civ IV is one of the more annoying programs to install on Linux; games like DOTA 2, starcraft 2, and League of Legends work out of the box but Civ IV has some DLL dependencies that have to be manually added. I know what they are and have them, I just haven't bothered to reinstall everything just yet. I have a 4 day weekend coming up starting after I'm off work tomorrow, and that's when I'll install all of my games and test my new recording setup.

As for leader, I want someone who has a reaslitic shot of getting a few units up to level V. I considered Boudica, but will probably roll with cyrus. Still, boudica is tempting for the ability to crank out 13 xp units with commando, and that might come in very handy with the way I'm planning to approach this game. One settled GG + west point + civics would get me there. Still, cyrus can probably pick up 2 GGs and that could probably get me a few commandos which should also be enough.

 

[Seraiel]

Commandos are a really interesting Idea. I may be wrong with this, but I'm seriously thinking that WP is too expensive, and that the Research of Military Science also isn't worth it. This might be from me being inexperienced with the settings. Normally, my games end with roflstomping the whole map with tons of Cavs I whip in all cities. None of those actually reach such high lvls that Commando would be an option. Might be very different this game though, because the map is large and Conquest can take large amounts of time.

Btw.: I've advanced to T57, so about 30 minutes per turn... Some hidden diplomatic malus is screwing my techtrades, but I will be first to Liberalism, that's quite certain, as I almost got Education while the other AIs still don't have Paper... .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm planning to the world; this is the primary reason to desire commandos, and WP would let me build them out of the gate with one GG in such a city, if I'm boudica. If I'm cyrus, I'm not going to bother.

 

[Seraiel]

Cuirrassiers T77 (1000 AD) .

Amazing game.