G-Major 117

[TheMeInTeam]

If you're going with mounted warfare, Rusten's model is one to consider. Still, given the delayed era start 1000 AD cuirs does indeed sound impressive.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Cuirrassiers T77 (1000 AD) .

Amazing game.

Meaning you won conquest in AD 1000? That would shatter Rustin's victory in the same HoF table as this gauntlet.

Using Gandhi?

Congratulations Seraiel!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh wait...he WON it at T77?! That's incredible. I took that to mean he HAD cuirassers at T77 lol.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Oh wait...he WON it at T77?! That's incredible. I took that to mean he HAD cuirassers at T77 lol.

Actually, I'm not sure. You may be right. No doubt Seraiel will clarify. Acquiring both Gunpowder and Military Tradition by t77 is amazing in itself.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually, I'm not sure. You may be right. No doubt Seraiel will clarify. Acquiring both Gunpowder and Military Tradition by t77 is amazing in itself.

Sun Tzu Wu

That's why I thought along those lines...I would expect a later era start to slow down the tech rate somewhat. We'll see I guess .

 

[Seraiel]

It's nice that you believe that I could do the impossible, and win the game earlier while starting later .

T77 was the turn I reached MT + Gunpowder. I had 20 HAs / Knights pre-build, but to upgrade them, I took the GM from Eco (reached T83) and created one myself. Now the TM will finish, and I'll swarm the map. If I'd take the GE I got for bulbing Replacable parts, I'd have Cavs before T90, but I think rush-building the Kremlin will be better choice.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok.:

T90 = Cavs (35)

and:

T91 = Turn of attack (1st war )

The AIs are teching like crazy, and I still got friendly teching-partners. I hold the monopoly on Rifling and Military Tradition, and my neighbours are mostly underdevloped (some don't even have Knights yet) because I was trading with the other half of the Continent.

Might be, that my game will also go until Nukes because the 2nd half of the Continent could get difficult otherwise. Is there anything I have to consider?

Guess building Factories will pay of, and guess keeping researching is an absolute must, or is it? I don't know what could happen if I'd stop research now and would concentrate completely on building troops (I'm 3T before capturing the Mids and got another GE for rushing the Kremlin) .

Are there untis Cavs + Airships cannot kill? Guess Tanks would be quite hard, but those are soooooo far away, and I'm not even sure, if pure numbers (I'm of course gonna be near domination at that time) might still make it.

Feel like I'm losing too much time, I say to myself that it'll get easier with a heavier buildup, but 90T without a war, I'm going crazy here!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You might be able to stop research, if the AIs aren't too advanced. Could knock them out with vastly superior numbers of units, if lacking technical superiority.

Good luck with your game Seraiel!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

As I said, I got a monopoly on Rifling and Military Tradition, so atm. , the AIs are underdevloped, but they won't be for long with those settings.

What I'm thinking about, is (especially as I play India -> Maussoleums) , to stop Research either past Railroad, or past Flight, probably Railroad. As I will have extreme numbers of cities, and extreme numbers of units, it shouldn't really matter, what units the AI have, as I can Airship bomb the top-defenders, spy-revolt the city, and even then, 2 Cavs should beat a Panzer.

What I don't know, is, if I can end the game before AIs have modern Armors or Nukes, because the tempo of the Research in that game is really crazy, 14 tech-trading AIs are like every 2nd round someone having a new tech.

And, what I don't know is, if this'll be effective, especially with me still having tech-partners to trade with and with having really good experience with high-tech-wars ((Stealth-) Bombers are amazing, but question is and will be, if this'll be faster, and that, I dought very much.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok fellas, I've seriously underestimated the tech-tempo / time to conquer a large map. I could have nukes in 15 turns, question to TMIT (or anyone else with experience, reading this) : If I have Nukes, and Paratroopers, do I need anything else?

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, Nukes require Rocketry (so I'm not as near to them as I thought) , who would have thought this.

What's the difference between Tactical Nukes and ICBM's? Guess it's range?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If I have Nukes, and Paratroopers, do I need anything else?

You might want transports/submarines if invading from water. It depends how you set up your war. I wanted a commando unit because paratroopers can't attack on the turn of paradropping (they can only capture empty cities) and workers/executives almost never die to nukes.

Tactical nukes and ICBM do the same damage; the difference is that Tac Nukes have a limited range but also have a 50% chance to evade SDI interceptions (IE over 60% of them will hit even with SDI, instead of 25% of ICBM which is a big deal since Tac Nukes also cost less ).

In practice, you would almost always use tac nukes; a sub + 3 tac nukes is less than 3 ICBM and you don't lose the sub when launching them. Tac nukes can also be rebased like airplanes (and as a result, gifted to AIs fighting each other for the lulz ).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Tactical Nukes may be required to win a game for this gauntlet's settings.

Since you have Rifling, you need only Artillery and Rocketry in addition to Fission. Artillery requires Physics, but you already have that for building Airships.

As TheMeInTeam mentioned, Tactical Nukes are the way to go, being half the price of ICBMs, and especially because they have a 50% chance of evading SDI versus those AIs with that defensive system (62.5% chance getting through SDI, if I remember correctly). His suggested use of submarines is a good one, but Tactical Nukes can be rebased like aircraft units to Cities or Forts within one's Culture.

Building a few ICBMs is good insurance against the unexpected, such as a huge enemy stack next to or approaching one of your cities. Two hits by an ICBM (or a Tactical Nuke) in any of the plots in the 3x3 kill area will destroy nearly all enemy units outright. Sometimes 1-2 units will survive at less than 10/100 Hit Points.

I don't think you will need more than Tactical Nukes, Cavalry and Infantry (even Riflemen may suffice) to win. You can of course build Artillery, since the Artillery technology is on the beeline to Rocketry.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In my latest game with Gilgamish, I was able to take the cities of two Civs, leaving one with lone city for a Peace for Technology deal. Captured The Pyramids, ran Representation and Caste System. Built half price Libraries in every city to multiply the research by +25% and to run 2 scientists in slavery. I was able to bulb Education with 2 Great Scientists and most of Liberalism with a third Great Scientist while still not having Machinery and finished Gunpowder.

Since the AIs got Education shortly after I did, I abandoned my plan to trade for Printing Press to 2 Great Scientist bulb Chemistry, since I did't quite have the 2 GSs finished yet. So I just Liberalized Chemistry rather than Steel. Asoka seemed to have finished Liberalism too, so that was the right decision under the circumstances. Chemistry got traded around blazingly fast. But, not Liberalism.

So, I'm now researching slowly through Steel. Plan to go Military Science for Grenadiers after that while building a stack of 50-80 Cannons.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

It's really interesting to read about your games. I understand your decision to Lib Chemistry, instead of Steel. Of course, Libbing Steel would have been slightly faster, but going the risk and missing Lib, could only be reasoned in a game that's "not really" worth it. The harder the game gets, the more one values safety.

My game is still both, a pain, and a joy. The uncommon settings, with which I never played before, make it absolutely unpredictable for me. I did some major diplomatic twists, using the SPI trait, and by that got tons of tech-trades. This was anyhow the only chance to stay in the game at all, I conclude from paying close attention to the Demographics screen. Even though having been 2nd in owned land AND production for most of the game, I were somewhere in the middle with the GNP, and still am. Anyhow, since Education, I'm able to hold a tech-lead of 1-2 techs, and all-tech-trading Mansa.

What's making it really hard for me though, is not only the lack of experience I have for these settings (I have absolutely 0 plan where the game is going and what I really need, this could be the thing I could improve on most if I'd play a 2nd try, which I probably won't, as I'm exhausted now already) . People say "Marathon is boring, and takes too long" , well, ok, but this game? "Amazing" , but, "Nervewrecking" !

I feel like after a round of Huge Marathon (absolutely exhausted) , but I'm so fascinated, like I were when achieving my first Deity win! It's actually like ascending into another difficulty lvl, that's far beyond Standard / Normal Deity, it's like "Difficulty: Unknown"

Could you maybe give me some timelines of your games? I need to know where I'm standing. Last time given was 1000 AD Cuirrassiers, so T77. I'm now in T110 (1500 AD) , with the Victory Screen saying 20% land and population, which probably will already be 30% of land, once cities have come out of revolt.

P.S.: Thx for the advice, TMIT. Maybe there'll come a time, when I can back. I promise to mention you both in the Videotake I'm recording.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My best game so far is not competitive. It is what some players call a test game, but it follows all HoF rules (not a World Builder test game). I Liberalized Chemistry around t92 (very slow); could have been Steel if two extra GSs were available; after bulbing most of Liberalism, I acquired Machinery, Engineering, and Printing Press which allows Chemistry to be bulbed. It doesn't always work out as planned, but usually does; AI like to target Scientific Method, so they must get Printing Press for the player; sometimes you have to feed them technologies so they tend to research the ones you want fast enough.

I plan to play Gandhi next; use both his traits to the max. How did you early rush with him; Axeman or Chariot? If one is able to steal a few Workers very early, one can chop units like crazy. Explore neighbors early and locate/deny them their Horse and Copper resources; then kill their Archers with Axemen or Chariots and no seige (Seige comes well after most AIs have tons of Axemen, Chariots, Swordmen, Horse Archers and even a few War Elephants), or a lot of Archers per major City, if one is using Aggressive AI option to slow down AI research.

Hatshepsut seems like it may be more viable than any foot unit. Creative is great to get half price Libraries and run two Scientists while still in Slavery. The Spiritual trait can be used to switch between Slavery and Caste System without much penalty (same for Gandhi of course).

I haven't yet tried a Horse Archer rush in this gauntlet yet, but I believe it will only work with a 2-3 Grassland Gems start to complete Horseback Riding by about turn 12-15, but prior to that Chariots should be used to steal Workers or rush flat land Def 20 Cities. Chariots can also escort Workers back at full speed; Stolen Fast Workers can be moved two flat plots or one forest/hill plot and still have a 3rd MP to retreat from Barbs, thus they do not need escort home and could not get back any faster with Chariot escort.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Seraiel]

I choked one of my neighbours with the Archer, stole 2 Workers with it. Then peacfully chop-expanded to 7 cities, well, not 100% peacfully, one was a Barbs city. I played buildup style, and focussed on Research as much as possible, while still trying to build some HAs, and created 2 GMs during the GA I got from TM to upgrade them. The attack with Cavalries was caused, by the GMs, having to walk 10 turns, which was the time from Military Tradition towards Rifling.

If I'd play the round again, I would also try out Hatsepsud, or, Catherine! Given this map, Catherine would have rocked even harder with her IMP-Settlers than Ghandi did with his fast Workers.

A major, or maybe minor fault of mine was, to not build Universities, though being PHI. Cause of this was me not setting up any Commerce-cities besides the Capital, but Hammer-cities at most. Those I used to build the necessary Infrastructure, and build the upgradable HAs afterwards. In my games prior to this, I actually never succeded with a HA Rush, as my Targets either had Strategical Ressources. Walls are almost not avoidable given these settings, so dought very much, that HAs could be successful at all.

It's imho most effective, to play the 3 Gems / 3 Gold starts one has to T50. That's about the turn, as I noticed, where the game is getting serious and one has to decide, if the round is worth it, and if so, quit on your bad habits, and really play effectively. I'm learning so much this round, because I have to. I'm invading my next target i. e. still with Cavalries + Airships, though it has Rifles. After my fail to not build Universities, I decided that Spy Economy was worth it, because the buildings are cheap, and it can help specifically against one target (tech-steal, city-revolts) , set up Jails and Intelligence Agencies in the Commerce-cities the AI thankfully built for me, so I'm now having good (core) production cities, good (arbitiary) gold / spy cities and a steadily growing army of Cavalries + Airships (+ Spies) .

I think this combo is actually so strong, that nukes might be totally over the top, given the numbers (60 Cavs, 20 Airships, 10 Spies with targeted empires having between half of my power and my own power) .

Greatest problem is getting the spies into position early enough. They're slow like snails and then still need the 5 turns, guess I'm just gonna swarm the map with them from now on.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, advanced Strategy. As my target has huge amounts of Rifles, and as her cities are closely together, and, as the Spies need forever to reach their targets, I'm going to mass up Airships and bombard the hell out of all units. If they're wounded, they should be just sitting there, healing, where I can pick them off then. This'll get funny.

 

[Seraiel]

Strategy confirmed as working. Conquered 4/12 cities already. Cavs against Rifles (with using Airship-Bombardement and Spy-Revolt) has Chances from 66% to 90%. The losses are negliable 'til now, and not a single defender left their city until now, or even tried to counter attack, because they have been scratched by Airships. This will work until Infantry I guess, but at that time, I'm going to have Nukes.

And just because it's a first time, anybody of you probably already knows: "You're winning a war, but don't have enough troops to go against the vast numbers? Your attackers got seriously hurt while farming the enemy units? Go for ceise fire. Your target is so friendly and transports your troops back to your healing centres without using up movement points, where your troops can regenerate, to farm the rest" .

TROLOL.

 

[Seraiel]

Wow, this game is really taking everything. T127, 30% of land and population, and cities in revolt for another 10%, so nearing domination. 6T away from being able to build Manhatten Project, seriously hope, it was the right way to tech that far, and keep the cities so highly developed. Cities, that were conquered with huge effort, and cities being soooo big, that they revolt longer, than the war takes (find, cities should come out of revolt, once the leader is dead) .

While all the empires are aiming at a Cultural Victory, I begin to develop an adversion against troops, large maps, and quick speeds. Atm. I still only got about 100 offensive units (Spies included) , but knowing that I still have to "delete" half of the map, is tiring.

It's not that I hope it'll change, no way, I'm glad I could decide the game with the war against Hatty, and that my Cavs + Airships + Spies tactic worked so well, but seriously, the "mess" (the other Civlizations) is just so big, cleaning up is like playing God, oh, I am actually .

Plan next btw. is to build Cavalries in the core cities, let the cities grow (so don't use the whip) , and once Nukes are available, mass-whip them and destroy the whole map.

I have no idea if I still need tactics then or if anything can happen as I never played that far, but what do the other empires want to do against someone with 5 times the cities, whippen 20+ nukes on T1 of Manhatten?

Btw.: Espionage Economy is funny.