G-Major LIX

[zenmaster]

I played up to turn 450 now and the score is really starting to snowball.

I am generating about 1200 gold per turn, 2400 culture per turn, 7000+ science per turn, and 450 faith per turn IIRC.

I have settled every usable spot on the map and have started to send settlers to one tile islands for extra cities. I rush buy production buildings because then build growth and happiness buildings very fast (cheaper than buying growth and happiness buildings). Happiness is not a problem at all as I am hovering around 100 happiness (sometimes down to 70 sometimes up to 110) as I settle/conquer cities and build happiness buildings. My population increases in about 30 to 40 cities each turn (rotating of course). My faith has been enough to get Pagodas in most cities shortly after religion spreads.

I have started to conquer the CS at turn 430 (4 captured at this point and am currently at war with 4 more). I took the military cities first, now the religious and the cultural. I am saving the happiness and growth CS for last.

After a slow start with research, I was able to finish the tech tree by about turn 350 and have been getting FT every 6 turns or so since then.

Sweden is the only remaining AI player. He has 3 wonders IIRC. Gifting him a different capital to take his city with 3 wonders would probably net a lower score than just letting him keep them at this point.

Sounds like things are going great! What is your score currently, out of curiosity?

 

[Bleidraner]

I played up to turn 450 now and the score is really starting to snowball.

I am generating about 1200 gold per turn, 2400 culture per turn, 7000+ science per turn, and 450 faith per turn IIRC.

I have settled every usable spot on the map and have started to send settlers to one tile islands for extra cities. I rush buy production buildings because then build growth and happiness buildings very fast (cheaper than buying growth and happiness buildings). Happiness is not a problem at all as I am hovering around 100 happiness (sometimes down to 70 sometimes up to 110) as I settle/conquer cities and build happiness buildings. My population increases in about 30 to 40 cities each turn (rotating of course). My faith has been enough to get Pagodas in most cities shortly after religion spreads.

I have started to conquer the CS at turn 430 (4 captured at this point and am currently at war with 4 more). I took the military cities first, now the religious and the cultural. I am saving the happiness and growth CS for last.

After a slow start with research, I was able to finish the tech tree by about turn 350 and have been getting FT every 6 turns or so since then.

Sweden is the only remaining AI player. He has 3 wonders IIRC. Gifting him a different capital to take his city with 3 wonders would probably net a lower score than just letting him keep them at this point.

Well done Mesix. Hang in there. I am out of it unfortunately, realized I cannot finish without a significant time commitment that I cannot afford. I will be cheering you guys on.

 

[Cromagnus]

I may resurrect my game that I abandoned on t42x, not because it was a competitive game, but because I don't have time to start and finish another, and at least that way I'd have one HOF entry for the month of April instead of zero. After all the time I spent to get to t42x, it would be annoying not to have anything to show for it.

Playing time games makes me feel like I should join this:

http://www.civanon.org/

 

[Morcar_olmig]

It seems that i already submitted my final attempt here - it was far from optimal, but i don't have a time to make a second attempt.

 

[Mesix]

It seems that i already submitted my final attempt here - it was far from optimal, but i don't have a time to make a second attempt.

That is exactly how I feel. I still have to find time to play the last 50 turns before the end of the month.

 

[Smirk]

There was a mention of another thread about this sort of challenge, was it here or maybe in the more general strategy sections?

Anyway, it seems fast science while balancing faith and militarization is always a struggle for me, I think the last game I got PP around 170 with 3 tall cities. I was currently conquering everyone and planned on taking out the remainders before the first vote. I ended up getting dog piled which slowed this down and I abandoned it.
Another curious thing, when Venice takes a CS, and you later conquer it you have the option to raze it. Possible useful way to recycle a CS out of the game perhaps enabling a few more cities optimally placed. Although in my game Venice happened to take one of only two Mercantile, which is another reason I abandoned it.
The final is that I moved first turn to get next to a mountain, meanwhile 20 turns later I realized I should have moved differently to get a mountain (with 3 salts) AND a desert which with a dozen or so desert hills would probably amount to the best capital I've even seen in standard once Petra.

 

[Cromagnus]

There was a mention of another thread about this sort of challenge, was it here or maybe in the more general strategy sections?

Anyway, it seems fast science while balancing faith and militarization is always a struggle for me, I think the last game I got PP around 170 with 3 tall cities. I was currently conquering everyone and planned on taking out the remainders before the first vote. I ended up getting dog piled which slowed this down and I abandoned it.
Another curious thing, when Venice takes a CS, and you later conquer it you have the option to raze it. Possible useful way to recycle a CS out of the game perhaps enabling a few more cities optimally placed. Although in my game Venice happened to take one of only two Mercantile, which is another reason I abandoned it.
The final is that I moved first turn to get next to a mountain, meanwhile 20 turns later I realized I should have moved differently to get a mountain (with 3 salts) AND a desert which with a dozen or so desert hills would probably amount to the best capital I've even seen in standard once Petra.

I wouldn't risk putting Venice in the game, unless you're willing to re-roll until you start next to him, so as to prevent him from puppeting a mercantile, culture or maritime CS, because you absolutely need every one of those you can get. Heck even the faith ones really come in handy for the mid-game.

As far as other challenges, I'm not sure. This is the highest-difficulty level Time gauntlet so far, and it shows. On the previous gauntlets, there wasn't much risk of the AI getting a key wonder. On this gauntlet it can cause real problems in the first 200 turns. Plus they get cities out faster, have more units, etc... it creates a true dilemma between the four priorities. (Tech, War, Culture and Wonders)

You really can't afford to lose Oracle *or* Great Library or Stonehenge. (You need fast religion to guarantee Pagodas)

Petra and Colossus help a tremendous amount, but you can technically afford to capture them late. But, a good Petra city is game-changing, so it really matters. I also think Hagia Sophia is a necessary Wonder if you go for Pagodas instead of +1 happiness from shrines. You need to get as many pagodas up as you can ASAP, and also you need to extend religion ASAP to avoid losing +2 from temples. You can't afford to spend 300 faith on extending. Which means you also really want an early Borobodur. Those 3 missionaries equate to 6-12 happiness, more if you took Ceremonial Burial. You need to spread your religion to place Pagodas and get the benefits from temples.

And of course you can't afford to lose Pisa OR Globe Theatre. The rest of the Wonders it's very unlikely you'll lose, or it doesn't matter if you lose them. But those first 150 turns put a LOT of pressure on hammers. Which is why IMHO you need a salt start and a Petra expo to really do all this... building units, building amphitheaters before you get the free culture buildings. (4 free Opera Houses makes a big difference for Hermitage if you're not opening Aesthetics)

So yeah, it's very challenging on King. IMHO the most reliable way is to place three cities, and then primarily focus on conquest, rush-buying as many science buildings as you can. You won't hit the Modern Era as fast as if you focus on Tech, but you lose less key wonders. You could also beeline tech and try to hit Chivalry *early* and not start your warpath until t100 or so, but IMHO this just makes it harder. And you lose more Wonders.

 

[Smirk]

Good points. I played it thru again to 150ish having moved to get the Petra. I routed the map with no problems.

Still got PP around the same turn (177), I have been rushing to Chivalry and spending some early cash buying chariots and then upgrading. Not having much problem with getting Stonehenge and a religion. The cost of the chariot isn't much more than the early archer rush, also of course I don't even need to go down that tech path at all until after Education.

I have been building monuments, while detouring down Liberty for the free settler. The getting the free amphitheaters, haven't tried waiting even longer to get free opera houses. Well, haven't done that since a good number of patches ago when they made Tradition so damn good.

I was thinking dominating the map and keeping a fast tech rate to get public schools by around 200 would be ideal, but I couldn't piece together any good timeline yet from this thread. I have been getting Astro prior, but perhaps thats a waste of time as the capital would be the only likely candidate.

Truthfully I've never completed a time game, going back to at least civ3. Hah. The build up phase is pretty challenging and interesting tho. Same sort of long range thinking that was needed back when Culture was about building wonders and getting the 1000 year old bonus.

 

[Cromagnus]

I'd aim for a t145 PP, Education->PP, doing Acoustics afterwards if necessary, so as to trigger the first World Congress earlier. t145 PP = ~t180 vote, t210 2nd vote, t235 3rd vote, t255 4th vote. That allows you to get 3 Things voted in before World's Fair. (Cultural Heritage Sites, Historical Landmarks, and Arts Funding)

Arts Funding is optional though, so t160 PP is fine for a t250 3rd vote, but +33% to Great Writer generation might be nice. Alternatively, you can go for Natural Heritage Sites, but really the +33% GW generation is more valuable. After World's Fair the games you can switch back to Science Funding. But, totally optional. So T160 PP is sufficient. However, in that case, I'd want it to be Acoustics or Banking first, because really t180 Scientific Theory and t220 Plastics should be your goal. IMHO. Or faster if you can. /shrug

 

[Mesix]

I'd aim for a t145 PP, Education->PP, doing Acoustics afterwards if necessary, so as to trigger the first World Congress earlier. t145 PP = ~t180 vote, t210 2nd vote, t235 3rd vote, t255 4th vote. That allows you to get 3 Things voted in before World's Fair. (Cultural Heritage Sites, Historical Landmarks, and Arts Funding)

Arts Funding is optional though, so t160 PP is fine for a t250 3rd vote, but +33% to Great Writer generation might be nice. Alternatively, you can go for Natural Heritage Sites, but really the +33% GW generation is more valuable. After World's Fair the games you can switch back to Science Funding. But, totally optional. So T160 PP is sufficient. However, in that case, I'd want it to be Acoustics or Banking first, because really t180 Scientific Theory and t220 Plastics should be your goal. IMHO. Or faster if you can. /shrug

I used Piety to get any faith bought great person after Industrial age. This netted me 4 GW during the World Fair IIRC.

 

[Mesix]

There was a mention of another thread about this sort of challenge, was it here or maybe in the more general strategy sections?

Anyway, it seems fast science while balancing faith and militarization is always a struggle for me, I think the last game I got PP around 170 with 3 tall cities. I was currently conquering everyone and planned on taking out the remainders before the first vote. I ended up getting dog piled which slowed this down and I abandoned it.
Another curious thing, when Venice takes a CS, and you later conquer it you have the option to raze it. Possible useful way to recycle a CS out of the game perhaps enabling a few more cities optimally placed. Although in my game Venice happened to take one of only two Mercantile, which is another reason I abandoned it.
The final is that I moved first turn to get next to a mountain, meanwhile 20 turns later I realized I should have moved differently to get a mountain (with 3 salts) AND a desert which with a dozen or so desert hills would probably amount to the best capital I've even seen in standard once Petra.

I also find it difficult to balance in the early game. My early research was somewhat slow due to having too many puppets after early conquest of all but one AI player.

You should be okay to build Petra in your first expansion city. I often find this is better than trying to get the perfect capital for Petra. It is also nice to have at least 2 powerhouse cities rather than putting everything in the capital.

 

[Cromagnus]

Agreed. For Time victory, I actually prefer that Petra be in a second city. My capital is usually working tons of specialists. Which limits the value of Petra until size 30+. Whereas an expo of size 20 can work every good Petra tile because it typically only has a few specialists until later.

 

[Mesix]

25 turns left.

4 CS left on the map. 2 mercantile cities which are about to be conquered (already at war) and 2 navigation cities (food) which I will take in the last 10 turns of the game. There were only 2 navigation cities on the whole map.

I am now generating 11k+ science, 3.3k culture, 1.5k gold, and 650 faith each turn.

My happiness is about 100. It dipped below 20, but then I got another policy which boosted my happiness again.

There are very few places to found new cities. I have taken almost every island on the map, and I have spread through the tundra areas. When I plant a city, it has no name. I don't think I have ever run out of names for cities before. How many names are in the list?

Hopefully, I will have time to finish up tomorrow.

 

[Cromagnus]

Interestingly, during my first attempt, I got un-named cities in the middle. IE one city would be unnamed, then the next would be named. But I was getting city names from a bunch of different civs too. Is that maybe because the Mongols conquered so much of the world? In any case, it varies, I think. Some civs have more names than others before they run out... if I recall. It's somewhere between 80-120 or so usually. In my first attempt, which I won't finish in time for this gauntlet, I settled every island, and without any CS had about 174 cities. So, I think it would have been 190 total by the end. So much hate for Standard.

Finishing the game with +100 happiness is not that uncommon. It's why I always say Time games are growth-bound. However, it's really inaccurate, I think. It takes early happiness to settle fast enough to reach the growth limit. You could compensate by taking growth beliefs, but I believe that's only an effective strategy on Settler-Warlord.

I started over, and my 2nd attempt won't finish in time for the Gauntlet. I'll probably play it at my leisure over time. Much better start this time. Finished building World's Fair on t267. (which was slightly delayed because I was still building Broadcast Towers when the vote came up)

I have 28 policies (including 6 free ones from Oracle, SoL, SOH, Ideology and WF) and I'm earning 1620 cpt during the fair, with 9 cities. (2 puppeted)

I made one big screw up in this game: Attila's Court had 2 turns remaining on Hotel, and completed it in 1 instead because of growing. However, it remains puppeted and has yet to place a single culture building, so *for now*, I'm still at zero tourism. There are no landmarks in that city's borders, so I may keep it, because I don't *really* need culture buildings once the expansion starts. Or I may trade it for Assur, which is Attila's current capital.

I didn't have the sheer hammers necessary for the "plant 10 cities at the start of World's Fair" idea. All those settlers and archaeologists... I barely had time to get broadcast towers up. I put off research labs 40 turns as a result. (I think I hit plastics on t215)

So, in retrospect I don't really think that mass expansion landmark plan is valid. Also, New Deal is 2 extra policies, because you need another lvl1 in Freedom. I did some math and estimated that New Deal would earn roughly 12000 culture, so you basically break even... you use two policies to get two extra policies. (8cpt/landmark, 20 turns + 8 turns/GW, 10 GW, 16 landmarks = 16*8*100 = 128000)

Also, I didn't find a single cultural CS until WAY late, but there are *6* in the game. My culture more than doubled when I finally found them. I think I only had Liberty + Tradition by t160, which is terrible, but in the end, oh boy does 6 cultural CS change the game!

Had I found them earlier, I would have had 3-4 more policies. Also, part of my aforementioned mistake was forgetting to annex Attila's Court and Moscow after I finished the Intelligence Agency. As a result, I got that stupid Hotel and those cities don't have culture buildings.

I only put 1 pt in Aesthetics, and 1 in Piety, so I can't rush-buy GW, but in the end, I believe it was worth it to save the 6 policies, because I should be able to get all happiness policies by the time World's Fair is over. (t287)

Right now I'm spamming settlers, and I think t287 is early enough to finish planting all cities by t350, much better than my previous effort where I had 20 more to plant by ~t430.

Also, I think going wide early is the key, but it *really* slows down policies, much more than my previous math led me to believe. What I didn't take into account is that clearing the map early like I did means that for a LONG TIME, like 100 turns, you have lots of cities and low culture & science. It just takes a lot of time to place all those buildings, so the math on cpt and bpt is totally wrong for like 100 turns, meaning that there's a very significant penalty to going wide. But it's much better to take that penalty earlier rather than later. Still, I'd put the limit at 12 cities or so. Maybe 15 if you play it super well.

Right now I'm thinking that the winning approach is really fast warpath + multiple early cultural CS allies. Everything else is somewhat your standard turtle build-lots-of-buildings.

Also I rush-bought 2 caravel ASAP, and I think that really helped. I basically revealed the entire map long before Satellites, and that earned me 6 cultural CS allies, which like I said, for a while, more than doubled my culture rate...

Spoiler :

If I were to start over (and I won't... I will eventually submit this as my last ever Standard Time game) I would change a few things:

1) Get a settler or 2 out to the last few luxuries I don't have, to get King Days + more CS quests.

2) With the extra policies I would have had from earlier Cultural allies, I would have taken 2 points in Piety early for the extra faith to plant more pagodas and generate a great prophet or two to spread my religion around to the rest of the world. I think this is key... you want those settlers in the new world to pick up the religion from the CS near them. I think if you manage it right, all your new cities will almost immediately convert that way. Which allows you place more cities faster.

3) Annex those last two cities faster. I delayed because of my terrible culture rate, but again, if I'd found the cultural CS earlier, it would have been a non-issue.

4) Plant cities between my capitals to create an unbroken chain of territory and make my roads cheaper/easier to protect. Attila's Court, Gao and Moscow were all out of range of my caravans, and only Moscow was coastal, but only reachable by 2 cities, and it was my last capture. As a result, it took them too long to reach size 20. (my temp cap)

Edit: So I changed my mind and went for Reformation after all, because I realized I needed to burn GS before I expanded to maximize the value of my bpt. Bought 2 GW, for a total of 9. Got 10 policies out of those GW, +3 during the fair, so now I'm somewhere around 42-43. Still need +1g/science building, but other than that, I now have every useful policy. Decided not to plant cities until end of WF (287) instead of immediately on t277 (when I burned all my GW) because that earned me one extra tech & policy. In retrospect, that was probably a mistake.

I'm also regretting taking Ceremonial Burial instead of Tithe. Until ~t287 I had 9 cities. That's 4.5 happiness. It's also 45gpt, and would have been somewhere around 10000 gold prior to t287. So I think I missed an opportunity to get more early snowball. Also, I'm hurting for cash right now as I expand. It's limiting my expansion rate much more than the happiness is. CB is just not worth the opportunity cost IMHO. Tithe is so very powerful as the game progresses.

 

[ssjos]

Ive played until turn 394 now. Settled about 4/5 of the map and got tons of settlers and happyness on thier ways.

Got some major trouble with performance issues though. Founding new city takes 2 minutes of processing. Turn take about 2-3 minutes.

Anyone have tips to speed things up? Is there a point in not using building que?

 

[Cromagnus]

The building queue is a superstition of mine that I have not verified. I've recently switched back to using the queue, and multi-tasking during the delays.

Try switching to the strategic view before founding a city, cycling between units, cities, and ending the turn. Also turn off camera momentum if you don't find that too jarring. But these are minor improvements. It's just terribly slow.

 

[Mesix]

I had issues founding cities taking 1 minute or more in the lat 100 turns of my game too. I never tried switching to strategic view. Like you, I just multitasked during the delay.

 

[Peets]

I didn't had any delays (I have a strong PC) but I used the queue and for me it was faster.

 

[Cromagnus]

I didn't had any delays (I have a strong PC) but I used the queue and for me it was faster.

No delays?? Are you using a protoype unreleased CPU?

How many cities did you have at the end? If you can run smooth with 150+ cities then I want to know your specs so I can buy that machine!

 

[zenmaster]

Finally getting some traction on my attempt. Like Smirk, I played a few halfway decent maps through to 100 turns or so. Some observations:

A few posts back, Cromagnus was accurate in saying this King level Time game is a different beast than it is on lower difficulties. You really have hard build choices trying to juggle conquest, science, happiness, and culture. The threat of losing key wonders is real. One try looked good early until Maria I built a T30something Great Library.

My first extended try was a coastal desert start. I used raging barbarians and went Honor opener after Tradition opener. The pluses- Raging barbarians did their job and the AI progress was stunted. No wonders up from them until latish Stonehenge and Temple of Artemis which were nearby for easy capture. Nobody started a religion early. King Solomon's Mines were nearby on a desert river and another nearby desert location had a silver next to a mountain with another lux and 2 oases nearby. 3 great city spots and crippled AIs! Sounds ideal, but of course there were some downsides. The bad - The capital was not a production juggernaut so GL and NC we're slow. Raging barbarians slows down the ai and nets you decent culture with the Honor opener, but... it really slows down the conquest train. Guarding luxes, completing CS quests and just getting to your enemies takes a lot of units and extra precious time. It didn't help that a lot of AI caps were surrounded by rough terrain. Worst was no horses nearby and few on the map. Morocco had 4 nearby but that was it. Made some mistakes too. Built Mines expo 1st before realizing other site was better for Petra. Choosing Goddess of Love pantheon instead of Desert Folklore meant no early religion. I still think I would have gotten the 1st or 2nd religion with a quick capture of Stonehenge but that still would be a very late start.

Takeaways:

Raging Barbarians probably not a good idea on a King Time game unless you are the Aztecs. Slows down conquest too much and AIs eventually adapt and are tougher as a result.

I am with Vadalaz. While Goddess of Love is a better medium/long term Time game pantheon, unless you luck out with a nearby Faith NW, or commit precious early resources to Stonehenge, you will have no early religion and no faith snowball effect. Plus on King, yoi risk losing key beliefs. Getting that religion out early and spreading it has many many benefits.

My 2nd extended attempt is very interesting- William got Desert Folklore, an early religion, Mosques and Pagodas , and is spamming religion everywhere. My 4 city empire all has Mosques and Pagodas and is generating 40 faith per turn. Just started up my own religion in a Petra expo with a natural GP and Hagia Sophia. Problem is that yet another AI got an early religion before I could poasibly have so the Religious Centers +2 temples happiness belief is gone. Best I could do was Ascetism +1 shrine happiness and Feed the World. Have 1 army of 3 Keshiks that took out 1 AI and is about to take out William. I am so tempted to continue this game, going wide with cities using William's religion for Mosques and Pagodas before spreading my own. As Vadalaz pointed out, that would take some time to manage just the religion, let alone everything else. In order to get a submission in hopefully I went back to map roll.

Attempt that I will hopefully submit: Mountain copper capital in the middle of a vast desert with rivers nearby. Early religion using Desert Folklore this time? Check. Horses nearby ? 8 available from 2 expo cities I founded (Liberty policy and bought). Enough luxes nearby. Not too far from coast. Good ICS setup. Good terrain for early conquest. Downside is no cultural CS so far, but I can live with that with all the pluses. Hopefully the New World has 6 like Cromagnus' map did . Still early I game but I am optimistic my notebook can handle the early game and the PC can run the late game well over the next couple nights. Good luck to all trying to finish this in time for the gauntlet.