G-Minor 269 - Maya, Warlord, Space - Deadline March 27th 2023

[Noble Zarkon]

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Speed: Normal
• Map Type: Terra
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Maya (Pacal)
• Opponents: Must include Arabia (Saladin), Celt (Boudica), Egypt (Ramesses II), India (Asoka), Mali (Mansa Musa), Spain (Isabella)
• Version: 3.19.005
• Date: 31st January to 27th March 2023

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[jnebbe]

Hmm, time to beat is a t199 landing which is already quite good.
Terra+Mining/Myst implies we're supposed to build pyramids for a GE then found Mining with resources from the other continent? Could potentially chop out the engine on the other continent if you get a city up and running soon enough.
No huts hurts too since there will be no getting astro from huts, potentially saving 1/2 scientists

 

[Peteyboy]

Hmm, time to beat is a t199 landing which is already quite good.

I would have thought that it might just be impossible? Having got a few top HOFs recently, I find the #1 score on Warlord or below tends to be significantly influenced by hut pops (2 settlers + worker + numerous techs - serious fortune in the T199 attempt) combined with Igg who seems to be pretty good at getting #1 scores, furthermore, probably not the best map setup and opponents for the attempt. (I almost wish there was an HOF without huts, in a lot of the quicker / below noble games they can really make / break your game, more so than any actual ability.)

What can be worse is just when you're ahead (I was beating a Colony score in 1 recent attempt) - Then you get industrialism and despite having say 20-25% of the land - you don't hear that sound "a source of aluminium is nearby" and suddenly you know it's not going to have a happy #1 outcome.

I suspect a winning gauntlet score without huts will likely end up around turn 215-220 (would be happy to proven wrong though )

 

[jnebbe]

expansion is slow, tech is slow, feel like I have several time fewer workers than I need, all my cities are small and not developed cause I'm just building settlers/workers all the time. Maybe smart to add some extra ais to conquer? But warlord expands so slow... T89 and half the ai are still on 1 city.
RNG was very "generous" and spawned the only marble on the continent some 30 tiles away from my nearest city in mali territory so Mausoleum/Parthenon are being built with no multipliers, and didn't steal any workers cause I was looking for this darned marble
pain

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Good afternoon men, I'm kind of a newbie to competitive Civ 4, so what's tried 'n' tested norm in these games? I'm guessing rush to Corporations whilst stealing workers and beating down on all the opposition.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Welcome aboard!

Stealing workers can be a bit slow on Warlord, you can basically expect to do everything yourself! Warrior rushing a capital or two seems to be more effective than waiting for a a Holkan rush!

 

[jnebbe]

Good afternoon men, I'm kind of a newbie to competitive Civ 4, so what's tried 'n' tested norm in these games? I'm guessing rush to Corporations whilst stealing workers and beating down on all the opposition.

State Property workshops ->build research seems to be the best way.
For a rough outline I'd say you want 10-12 good cities by t100 or so while also getting all the early-wonders you want. Near 1AD you'll want to get into both Representation and Mercantilism, which gives each city +6 so suddenly you can tech fast even at 0%. Then lib communism and build workshops over the entire map. Go for assembly line for factories, steam power for levees, and finally plastics for three gorge dam.

I have a game thats going pretty good, got quite lucky as Mr Warlord Joao got Alphabet t88 so I traded for alpha, IW, monarchy, and some cheap religious techs. Am running 5 golden ages for the entire mid-late game. Conquering ai is pretty slow atm and probably should've done it earlier. I think I'm a little late to Communism but hopefully it's fine since all my cities are a decent size already. I don't know if it's good enough for sub-200, it will be pretty close

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

I've set Mapfinder running for plus 2 gold. Added 4 extra civs; Elizabeth, Frederick, Lincoln & Peter. Will see what turns up in the morning.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Map Finder has done its job well and generated 3 promising starts; alas none are coastal but still offer excellent prospects. Thank you much.

Game #1. 2 riverside gold & corn! A no brainer, settle in place which nabs the 2 plain hills in the north and all 10 forests on show. I’m thinking Warrior 1SW first; that river has trade potential and leads to the coast somewhere.

Game #2. Again, 2 riverside gold, no corn this time but hilltop pigs to pasture or mine and marble instead. Unsure where to move the Settler though? 1N is safe as it picks-up the sugar tiles and riverside plain hill, whereas 1SW would clear an awful lot of fog. Decisions… decisions? And Warrior 1SW-1SW onto the hill for more busting?

Game #3. Self-explanatory, 4 gold! Move 1N and they’re all in the “fat X”, a shame only one is riverside. The lack of forests is compensated by the abundance of hills so production should never be an issue. Another idea is move settler 1NW onto the plain hill, crank out a settler asap and get the finale gold that way. But Warrior first… so which direction? 1N fog busts either side of the gold, whereas 1SW would unveil slightly more.

I’m so inclined to capture all the gold in the Capital, ‘cos if I’m right, that’s 40g per turn. What’s the happy cap 6 or 7 at Warlord level? If its 6 Hinduism is a must have, so Polytheism replaces Agriculture as the first tech to be researched. (don’t want to chance Isabella beating on the race for Buddhism). Then, of course will health become the problem? As to work all 4 mines needs 3 farmed floodplains; would plus one health from cows tip the balance in my favour?

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Game 1. Turn set 0 -13

Moved the Warrior 1SW. Ha! I knew it; the ocean… thought for a moment… choose to stick with the age old strategy of SIP/worker first approach. A slight deviation from the normal research path with Polytheism though... Stupid is what stupid does!

T4. Peter introduces himself.

T6. Lincoln appears from the South.

T8. Buddhism founded in a distant land.

T10. I win rights to Hinduism and now back to the business of Agriculture, Fishing, Pottery etc.

T13. Meet Asoka.

Moscow’s northwest border located; my first target!

Worker completed but due to the delay of agriculture he’s sent off to get a couple of mining turns in on gold due south before farming the corn.

** Note to self: Polytheism before Agriculture delays the ability to farm until turn 18, MICRO-MANAGEMENT! Work the gold.

Moving on, I turn my attention to the training of a small warrior army.

 

[jnebbe]

What's the consensus on Coal Plants vs Three Gorge Dam? Coal plant takes 1-2 turns to build and then pays for itself in 5-10 turns. Three gorge dam is way cheaper; 1750 vs say 7500(150 hammers x 50 cities) but comes much later and will take a while to build, especially if you don't have forests saved. Maybe just a coal plant in capital and IW city and then build Three Gorge in the Bureau capital

 

[jnebbe]

Game 1. Turn set 0 -13

View attachment 654704​

Moved the Warrior 1SW. Ha! I knew it; the ocean… thought for a moment… choose to stick with the age old strategy of SIP/worker first approach. A slight deviation from the normal research path with Polytheism though... Stupid is what stupid does!

T4. Peter introduces himself.

T6. Lincoln appears from the South.

T8. Buddhism founded in a distant land.

View attachment 654705​

T10. I win rights to Hinduism and now back to the business of Agriculture, Fishing, Pottery etc.

View attachment 654706​

T13. Meet Asoka.

Moscow’s northwest border located; my first target!

Worker completed but due to the delay of agriculture he’s sent off to get a couple of mining turns in on gold due south before farming the corn.

** Note to self: Polytheism before Agriculture delays the ability to farm until turn 18, MICRO-MANAGEMENT! Work the gold.

Moving on, I turn my attention to the training of a small warrior army.

Good luck

I'll be completely honest though, that start doesn't look every good, no clear great 2nd city spot, lots of desert, and unworkable jungle to the south. I'd be curious about save #3 more, remember you don't need your capital to work all those golds! Share those golds between different cities and now you don't need to go Polytheism just for the happiness

 

[SittinDown]

Bureau capital

If you have 50 cities, do you feel like bureau is still a good play that late for 3 Gorges? I guess if you're in a fast space race, you don't have enough towns from free speech to be worth more than bureau?

 

[SittinDown]

Map Finder

You might want to try out some different settings. While gold and floodplains seem really good for the capital, I tend to find there's a lot of desert around you, and your 2nd and 3rd cities suffer.

If you go for something like Corn + Gems, and some rivers, you'll get a lot more green tiles, though the gems usually come with jungle, so that can be a mixed bag too, but a gem start is in my opinion even faster than a gold start, because the gems don't sacrifice food.

As jnebbe said, in game 1 I might not consider it a no-brainer to settle in place. Going 1 E lets you improve the corn sooner, and splits the gold to your 2nd city, giving you two powerhouse cities. That map looks really promising, with a nice ring of cottagable tiles. I'd want to get helper cities up there and get those cottages working early, and get to civil service.

 

[jnebbe]

If you have 50 cities, do you feel like bureau is still a good play that late for 3 Gorges? I guess if you're in a fast space race, you don't have enough towns from free speech to be worth more than bureau?

Yeah I was working 7 gold mines in the BCs so I only made like 3 cottages. My capital isn't amazing for bureau but I don't know what civic you'd run instead. I was considering nationhood to whip out some maces for fast conquering but I figured just growing pop would be better. In hindsight getting an army of maces in the late BCs/early ADs sounds pretty great

 

[Peteyboy]

Hi all - slightly naïve question perhaps but I've seen talk about "Map Finder" which presumably mass generates maps until a certain criteria (set by the user is found?) - Presumably matching the difficulty criteria (I.E on Warlord there will be likely 1 player with a better deemed start (if it was Deity, they would all / all but 1 have a better start.) - Are they allowable in HOF games? (Seems like using map finder would be a no-brainer, rather than rolling numerous starts.) - If so how does that work.

Also re-rolling starts in HOF - Do you always save the INITIAL game, before regenerating? Normally I save my start, if the start position isn't any good upon settling I exit and restart the game, but is re-rolling still allowed under HOD rules (I couldn't find anything concrete on this.)

Both of the above might save some time when starting HOF games. (On another note, could you say request resources which haven't been discovered, I.E Iron - Presumably not?!)

 

[Firmlife]

The basic rules are you must save your game on generating a map before making any move. This save must be submitted to the HOF/Gauntlet. And there are absolutely no replays/reloads. You cannot exit a game without saving everything you've done, and you must pickup the game when you load it from the last save that has all the moves you've ever made.

Past that, any kind of map regenerating you do is allowed. I wouldn't be quitting out and going through the game setup again, that's a lot of hassle. There are resources around that can explain Map Finder far better than I can.

 

[SittinDown]

(On another note, could you say request resources which haven't been discovered, I.E Iron - Presumably not?!)

Nope - it's a fun little side app add-on that lets you setup criteria for the resources that you see WITHOUT making any moves to start the game. like, just what you see right when a game starts. if the map the game generates your criteria, it saves the game and you can play it later, otherwise it discards it. it gives you no deeper information, it's just a handy tool for pressing the 'regenerate map' button over and over again until you find what you want.

I used to enjoy using it, but these days I usually just roll the first thing that looks decent in the first 1-3 maps, and live with it, so I don't learn bad habits by always playing really easy starts.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Please bear with me, I’ve just moved so no house internet yet. I’m trying to work off a hotspot from my phone but the signal is a bit iffy.

Game #1. Turn set 14 – 43

The worker diligently farmed the corn & dugout a mountain of gold, once both mines were on line, he started preparing the groundwork for floodplain cottages around the Capital.

The warrior busing himself mapping the terrain south of Mutal and stumbled upon Asoka’s borders and, blow me, an unguarded Indian worker! Unfortunately, before the worker could be enlisted, he’d morphed into a club wielding brute; oh well never mind I do believe I’ve just located the 3rd Maya city of Delhi.

Around turn #21 I had a bit of a shock; Peter adopted Slavery! Whereas I’m still on the research path of agriculture, fishing & pottery… But once completed its time for a bit of Bronze Working myself and oh yeah! BRONZE 4 south of Mutal; next the three Rs - reading writing & arithmetic.

My “explorer” Warrior met the founder of Buddhism… err? Wt!! Boudica??? AND we open borders – I’m sure at this stage I hadn’t discovered Writing, so has she’s not only a leather clad goddess but literate too! A dangerous combination. Read: Sexy.

A five strong Warrior army head east to rendezvous with the “Explorer” outside the gates of Moscow. I’m worried; the city square & 3 tiles of the inner ring are still hidden by the “fog of war”; regardless, I’m committed to the warrior rush… it’s a do or die mission, although I prefer “he who dares wins” as a Motto.

T43. DoW on Peter. This could well be a very short game! Is Moscow on a hill? Behind a river on a hill? Will he rush an Archer or maybe worst still, has bronze and an Axe!

** Note to self: INTEL! With the discovery of WRITING comes Open Borders - NO MORE GUESS WORK please.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Game #1. Turn 44.

For the cost of 2 brave warriors the FLAG of the GLORIOUS MAYA EMPIRE is hoisted above Moscow. The following Sunday in their honour, Peter the Not-So-Great-After-All was “The Headliner” in a game of Keepy-Up at a make-shift Ball Court.

The spoils of war Moscow gifts Pacal II:

• 1 working clam tile health:+1 health)
• 1 camped with a road connection ivory )+1happy)
• 1 floodplain cottage,
• 1 green hill with road

But for the Maya Empire to benefit Moscow needs to be connected to the Capital. Mutal already has one unworked cottage so why am I building another one?

*** Note to self: Plan ahead. Construct ROAD towards future cities. Or research SAILING!

But more importantly I didn’t capture the worker who built all these improvements. Why? Is the answer to attack from all directions to force him home”?