G-Minor 269 - Maya, Warlord, Space - Deadline March 27th 2023

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Okay guys, you’re all up to speed with my Game #1. @ Turn 44. (As bad as it may be).

I want/need/in deed appreciate your input albeit praise, wisdom or God forbid criticism; it’s the only way YOU’ll improve my game play. So, don’t hold back and chop me down (cannot be that hard) when and wherever possible but please don’t take offense if I counter back and defend of my chosen strategy or question your advice. For if indeed my plan is fatally flawed, we both win; likewise, if there is merit in my madness again its win-win and we both get stronger!



@ Nobel Zarkon: Thanks for the heads-up on worker stealing although I did miss one from Peter but that’s down to me being a total n00b. And yes, everything yourself is a given, I guess.

@ jnebbe: Its early days yet but 10-12 cities by T100; gulp , T44 I’m almost half way there and just got my second city. Not looking good.

I offer no advice on the coal plant/3 Gorge Dam dilemma but should I ever get that far you’ll be the first to know.

As for the Game #1. start I beg to differ; there are 2nd city sites all-around.

3W can work up to six 3 commerce water tiles (=3 cottages), shares 2 floodplains with the capital which if farmed enables two plain hills & two grass hills to be worked. Not bad in my estimation.
4N can work 9 water tiles (=4½ cottages) or maybe better 3N with six water tiles (=3 cottages) can also help the capital grow two green cottages, has four plain hills plus fish and cows. What’s not to like?
Or how about 3E, helps capital grow three green cottages has two green cottages of its own plus bringing Silk and Spices to the Empire.
Hey and there’s bronze in the south, c’mon.

@ SittinDown 1E gains nothing while losing a precious gold mine. Why? The Capital will build a library, a university, hopefully an Academy and Oxford! That extra gold is truly minted! And as stated above satellite cities truly enhance Capitals potential.

 

[ariosto]

I will join this competition too. Pacal is my favourite leader.
Didn't play below immortal for ages, so I'm playing practice game now, just to feel, how to play on this difficulty and how to perform warrior rushes.

@Lcpl Jack Jones on your game. I would also SiP. I've tried couple of starts with one gold in capital and I don't think it is competitive. Better have 2 golds in first 50 turns than strong helper city after that.
How many warriors did you build to capture Moscow? Did Peter have archers? T44 feels a bit late for me (some AI in my games got first archer about this time), but looks like you were lucky enough. Hope, your luck won't leave you when you attack Asoka.
I think, Dehli is the best 3rd city and you need to build some Holkans (3-5, depending on Asoka's garrison and how many warriors you still have). Chariots are better, but you need luck with horses for that. Build roads to speedup your attack!

Is the answer to attack from all directions to force him home”?

YES. Don't forget to do than in Dehli.

@ jnebbe: Its early days yet but 10-12 cities by T100; gulp , T44 I’m almost half way there and just got my second city. Not looking good

It will snowball fast. Moscow is insanely strong, and Dehli looks even better.
I think, the best city is 3N2W of Moscow, you should prioritize that. And settle those 2gems-rice city fast. 3N of capital also looks good, try to chop workboat on the first turn this city is settled. But I would do all of that only after Dehli

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

@arioato As I stated, trained 5 warriors + the starting one; so 6. Peter had 2 defender warriors; attacked 4 times to capture, taking 2 casualties myself. But as my next update will reveal the AIs now possess archery! Bugger.

 

[jnebbe]

Sub-200 is absolutely possible, I made quite a few mistakes, maybe the biggest one I can think of was not working 3 golds that were bordering Boudica as I was already working 4 golds and didn't want to risk a DoW, even though it's warlord ai and I could just beg anyway. This made my research slower than it could've been, prevented me from expanding faster, the conquering started later, etc etc. Ran 5 golden ages starting around 1AD, with good planning it's possible to get 6 and be in a golden age for the entire ADs
Got banking T120 and libbed communism T136, now that I think about it's probably best to beeline merc much much faster, I remember I was going for aesthetics+calendar and maybe music too I don't remember. Seems a little silly to go into merc just to switch into SP 16 turns later
Messed around with Mining at the end since I was sure it wouldn't beat the record, and since the hammers would help a lot for building space parts; don't go Mining it's not very good

I might do another game I'm not sure, but I know this can be beat

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

@jnebbe
I'm in awe... 207! I'll be happy with a sub 250 finish. So you say no Mining, how about Sushi? Because that's my plan but Corporations and Communism don't mix. Again, well done.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Game #1 turn set 45 – 63

I stop the worker building cottages and task him to construct a trade route between Mutal & Moscow. I’m only 3 turns from discovering Mathematics but as I won’t need to chop any forests and Moscow is in revolt, I take the opportunity to covert to Hinduism and adopt slavery (2 turns of anarchy).

After solving the mysteries of Mathematics I’m torn between Hunting for Holkans or Masonry which is needed both for The Great Lighthouse & Organized Religion, I decide for both followed by Alphabet for more INTEL and tech trading: - Archery for Masonry from Asoka & for Polytheism I get Sailing from Mansa and Animal Husbandry from Lincoln… Wah-Hey! I have HORSES Horseback Riding hear I come!!!

I Open Borders with Asoka, Lincoln & Boudica. Send 3 Warriors south to gather INTEL from Delhi and around the bronze area. I find Washington to west of Delhi and Boudica’s 2nd city Vienna defended by a lone Warrior to the south.

Both Washington and Delhi have a garrisoned Archer but thankfully neither have bronze but Asoka has just founded a 2nd city with horses in its inner-ring and Lincoln has sent a settler up towards the bronze.

Change of plan, I’ve trained one Holkan and upgraded 3 warriors so with an Army of 4 Holkans poised at the northern borders of Washington and 3 Warriors on its south-eastern flank I am ready to ATTACK but Lincoln founds New York next to the bronze and delays my DoW by a turn.

Turn 64. DoW on Lincoln.

Lincoln has a worker 3 turns away from completing a pasture on the horses, 1 Archer garrison in Washington at 40%, 1 Warrior garrison in New York with an Archer en route.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Game 1. Turn set 65 – 70

Washington proved to be a bridge to far! Stole the worker but lost three Holkans & two Warriors, killing just 1 defender Archer and reducing the other to 0.9 in Washington. Undeterred my remaining Holkan attacked New York’s Warrior AND LOST!

Game Over.

Note to self **** The Holkan is totally overrated. Do not attack with a ratio of less than 3½ :1

 

[jnebbe]

@jnebbe
I'm in awe... 207! I'll be happy with a sub 250 finish. So you say no Mining, how about Sushi? Because that's my plan but Corporations and Communism don't mix. Again, well done.

Thanks
Sushi is even worse than Mining xd, best to just stay State property the whole game

 

[ariosto]

Sub-200 is absolutely possible

T207 and only one gold in capital! I see, you preferred triple food, but still...

Got banking T120 and libbed communism T136, now that I think about it's probably best to beeline merc much much faster

Did you go for Education before Banking? With what units did you attack? Did you rush someone in the early game?

Washington proved to be a bridge to far! Stole the worker but lost three Holkans & two Warriors, killing just 1 defender Archer and reducing the other to 0.9 in Washington. Undeterred my remaining Holkan attacked New York’s Warrior AND LOST!

Hope you will get better luck next time, looks like the battle was really close.

Note to self **** The Holkan is totally overrated. Do not attack with a ratio of less than 3½ :1

Holkans are quite nice. They are even immune to first strike, so one might prefer them over chariots against archers. I think, 2:1 ratio should be enough, especially if you have some warriors. But you really should try to strike with them earlier.
I want to emphasize two more important points I see in your game. First, try to build road in advance before attack. This way you probably would have attacked a couple turns earlier and Washington could have one archer less. Or you would have one more holkan and won that battle. Second, try to avoid hill cities this early. They are for horse archers, axeman or even catapults.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Let’s try again.

Game 2. Turn set 0 – 13

Moved warrior 1W then circled in an anticlockwise direction around Mutal.

Founded Mutal 1N - Worker/Agriculture… nothing radical yet. Then Warrior/AH.

Meet Ramesses II, Lincoln & Boudica; in that order.

Buddhism @t8 & Hinduism @t10 both in a distant land.

I have both stone & marble plus ivory within easy reach if needed.

 

[jnebbe]

With what units did you attack? Did you rush someone in the early game?

Rushed 1 ai with 3 warriors at start and then rushed a 2nd ai with 1 holkan+remaining warriors. Capital built a settler at the same time so I end up with 4 cities and 3/4 workers by t40-45

I actually have no idea how or when you're supposed to start conquering ai after that. Idk chariots never seemed like a great option so your other options are HA's or elephants. HAs have a huge opportunity cost that early in the game; 500 for 10 horse archers could instead be 5 settlers, and your cities are going to grow fast anyway with good remaining city spots+a chopped EXP granary. But elepult is so slow and very hammer-expensive, and if you wait too long to start conquering then merc isn't going to be very powerful. In past similar games I've aimed for ~30 cities by 1AD but usually I end up settling most of them myself so I have no idea.
I quit a game yesterday that wasn't going well and told myself I wouldn't play another but now I want to try again

 

[ariosto]

Rushed 1 ai with 3 warriors at start and then rushed a 2nd ai with 1 holkan+remaining warriors. Capital built a settler at the same time so I end up with 4 cities and 3/4 workers by t40-45

And I thought I had a nice game going on .

This is the starting screen. I settled 1S. I like coastal starts when there is small amount of coastal tiles. GLH trade routes in the bureau capital are nice. But EXP harbor in the capital is even better. Usually, after some harbors are built, the best trade routes are not in the capital anymore so building it may effectively reduce your bpt. But this time I will build a harbor in the capital and guarantee the best trade routes there.

I started with worker, then one warrior on 0 food, and grow on warriors afterwards.
I captured Mecca T40 with 8 warriors. It was shocking to see only 1 warrior defending it. Even more hilarious is that I took it with the first warrior in 3% battle. So the other 7 warriors ended up being basically useless.
I also captured Madrid with 2 holkans and 6 warriors on T50. Captured 5 workers and built 6th. As you see, I connected my cities to speed up conquest.
Empire overvier T50. I chop library in madrid next turn it is out of revolt. This way I can connect marble T59 and chop Oracle T60.

T62 Oracle is built and I switch to bureau+slavery. As always, I miscalculated on worker-turns, so Oracle was 1T later than expected.

Now I have a problem - there is no stone revealed yet. How am I supposed to build mids without it? I was planning to switch Rep+Merc no later than T100, but maybe I'll have to change my plans. Rush someone with HA to get stone?

I'm also eager to try 3-warrior rush, so this is definitely not my last game yet. But I think I'll finish this one. I want to check out, when should I research astro. Normally I would tech it right after AL+Bio+Communism, but maybe it is too late and I should settle the new world earlier? Also, I don't know when AI is going to build a shrine. I want to spread shrine religion, not Confu, but maybe it is too optimistic?

 

[jnebbe]

Have a new game going on, its 1AD and I'm making 1300bpt at 100% and 500bpt at 0%, you could say it's going pretty well

@Jack Jones looks like a fantastic start! Could easily fit 10 great cities in just your starting area
@Aristo I personally wouldn't worry about pyramids right now, just try to expand as fast as possible. warlord techs are pretty cheap anyways, no real need for rep scientists in the near future

 

[ariosto]

500 bpt at 0% . That must be about 70 scientists? Amazing.

I did expand as quickly as I could. AI's capitals were so great that I couldn't resist adding them to my empire. Attacked both east and west opponents on T89. I think I built something like 10HA 8Chariot in total. Later I added 10 knights and almost finished the conquest. Knight is an uber unit when AI doesn't have longbows. It feels even better than cuirrassier rush.

Spoiler T91 America :

There are only two stones on the map (at least in the old world), and the other one so badly positioned, that I didn't have a choice but to attack Asoka. But for that, I did have to kill Ramesses beforehand. One more reason not to sit back.

Spoiler T99 STOOOONE :

I built Mids in 1T in the west of my empire after stone from the east of my empire was connected. Waited a little for MoM to finish at the same turn. This way I could collect some failgold. Next turn I started GA and switched to Rep+Merc.

Spoiler T106 mids :

Now it's T113 and I have 41 cities.The HG will be built next turn. The biggest HG I've ever had. Don't know if you can see anything because of all these marks. But there are only 37 workers. Good thing we are expansive!

Spoiler T113 overview :

 

[iggymnrr]

I find the #1 score on Warlord or below tends to be significantly influenced by hut pops (2 settlers + worker + numerous techs - serious fortune in the T199 attempt) combined with Igg who seems to be pretty good at getting #1 scores ...

Just noticing this. Don't know this Igg chap but he's not very good. Asoka on an inland sea might approach sub-1100 AD with that kind of start. The 1390 AD games looks like a test game. There's probably no time for me to finish a game but Pacal is a good leader to work with. Funny thing at this level is a game where I gave up on building granaries until like pop 8. (1190 AD win on a small map?) Poor Igg ... trying to build granaries ... and only getting a 1390 AD win.

Seriously, there seems to be some good interest and attempts. Maybe I'll have to generate some maps just to have some fun. The map is probably big enough to skip the New World and go state property instead of corps.

 

[iggymnrr]

If going state property and skipping the New World try a flat map for the lower city maintenance. It is also possible to combine Oracle/Stonehenge/Temple of Artemis in one city and generate 4 prophet/merchants to use in 4 different golden ages. Adding the Taj will make 5 golden ages. A 6th golden age via the colosseum random event probably needs marathon game speed.

 

[jnebbe]

I got a 1300AD win several days ago but still waiting for it to be accepted; first sub-200 for me was an amazing game by my standards. 44 cities 46 workers by 1AD, map was really nice as all but one ai spawned to south of jungle which sped up conquering. I don't think I bulbed a single tech, maybe 1 I don't remember, instead I ran 6(!) golden ages starting from t107 all the way up to launch at t180.

 

[Peteyboy]

Well done Jnebbe - I sensed from the write-up a few days back that my earlier prediction was going to be dismantled - further to that when Igg suggested it wasn't a hardcore attempt. Well done - P.S 6 GA - that's pretty good - 5 is my record, normally I just don't get enough reliable luck regarding which GS pops up each time. Then again, I guess enough cities with enough Mercantilism and you may just get enough to give you what you want

 

[iggymnrr]

@jnebbe: "44 cities 46 workers by 1 AD"

Getting ready to run a few maps. Testing seems to indicate that 3 warriors, 2 workers and 2 holkans are possible by turn 25. Assuming a 2-warrior rush works that can be converted into a 2nd city and a 3rd worker by turn 25, ready to go for a 3rd city.

 

[iggymnrr]

It seemed prudent to add 4 fishing AIs to the required 6. Work boat builds by the AI won't be terribly inconvenient. I also experimented with a cheap granary in the capitol to grow to pop 6 to 3-pop whip a settler and squeeze out some more units. 5 cities, 3 conquered, by turn 48ish is doable. Holkans are kind of crappy. Chariots are pretty good. It is also possible to get 2-3 workers per city by turn 50 for 5 cities. I learned this trick on marathon. We'll see how this goes on normal speed. Expansion idea is to plant a new city and immediately chop a 2nd worker.