[BTS] G-Minor 270 - Darius, Deity, Time - Deadline May 29th 2023

[Noble Zarkon]

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

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Settings:

• Victory Condition: Time (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Deity
• Starting Era: Any
• Map Size: Large
• Speed: Quick
• Map Type: Pangaea
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Persia (Darius)
• Opponents: Must include America (Lincoln), Egypt (Hatshepsut), England (Elizabeth), France (De Gaulle), Germany (Frederick), India (Gandhi), Mali (Mansa Musa), Spain (Isabella)
• Version: 3.19.005
• Date: 31st March to 29th May 2023

Must not play as Inca.
The highest score wins.

 

[Firmlife]

Wow! I was not expecting to see a Deity/Large minor gauntlet. Definitely interested in this one. I'm going to start by giving this a shot with an Ancient start, but I do want to note for any other participants that the current #1 HOF game is a Future start.

I've got two items.
1) In the Gauntlet tab under G-minor this is appearing as "G-Minor 260 (In Progress), but I think it should be 270, like the title of this post.
2) Before I get too deep into a game (gotta get some maps first), and to show I'm not always selfish, is everyone going to be ok with a Deity/Large minor? I was under the impression that the minor games were usually either lower difficulty or smaller maps to encourage everyone to play.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I was under the impression that the minor games were usually either lower difficulty or smaller maps to encourage everyone to play.

Thanks, will fix the typo.

They can be any difficulty and I felt a Minor at Quick Speed was ok, we'll definitely run it - if there's demand for something a bit easier just throw some suggestions out and we can run multiple Gauntlets concurrently.

 

[Firmlife]

Works for me! Thanks! I was actually thinking when setting up map finder that it is Quick speed, and on top of that Modern and Future starts are definitely both viable for submitting a game, and it's quite possible that an Ancient start is not optimal.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Ok, having proved my lack of expertise with Pacal in GM269, what's the strategy here? Deity, quick & future era... All way above my pay grade. So what's Map Finder looking for; gold again? Or production, oil, aluminium and rush to Modern Armour?

 

[Firmlife]

Ok, having proved my lack of expertise with Pacal in GM269, what's the strategy here? Deity, quick & future era... All way above my pay grade. So what's Map Finder looking for; gold again? Or production, oil, aluminium and rush to Modern Armour?

There are two things you're trying to accomplish in this game. 1) Prevent an AI from launching/landing a space ship. 2) Have the most points when the game ends at 2050.

You could try to accomplish 1) through espionage, but I think you're better off conquering all your opponents but one. That will get you 1) and 2) in one swoop. In the "future" you start with all the techs, so I think in map finder you're looking for aluminum and oil in order to run Modern Armor and an air force.

I've had a couple runs at this, refining my strategy each time, but have not yet won a game. For a future start, I'd recommend just having fun with the settings and with going to war with lots of shiny toys and not counting on a win. But if you really want to win, try looking at something like this: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=17474. Also keep in mind that you can do starts further back from 2050 than future era, and they make it easier to stop the space ship, but they make the games longer and they mean you'll have to conquer the AI's with older units.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Cheers for the head's-up Firmlife.

Just completed my first game, not good news I'm afraid... finished bottom the pile , over 1500pts behind Startrooper Frederick! His spaceship touched down 54 turns before the cut-off at 2050 AD and I still had to research Computers so did not have Modern Armour let alone Stealth Bombers!

There are so many questions that need answers:

Great People, how to use them? 'Settling' seems pointless considering the whole game lasts less than 120 turns and a Golden Age is a measly 6 turns which leaves 'Bulbing' (around 700 beakers) but is only useful if on the right tech path. I built an Academy with one but I doubt it paid for itself and could not see any noticeable difference from the 2 GA's. All suggestions welcome!

Civics, I started with Representation/Bureaucracy/Caste System/Mercantilism/Free Religion but changed to Slavery/State Property fairly soon into the game to aid production and cut costs. I'm wondering if Nationhood for 'Drafting' & Environmentalism for the health bonus is a viable option?

Tech Path, I went Flight (cheapest), Rocketry ~ whatever with no real purpose. A far better course I now feel would be; Plastics first, which allows Three Gorges Dam to be built (a good use of a Great Engineer or two!). Then Radio & Computers - THE INTERNET (more engineering for you Great Guys ). Followed by Rocketry, Satellites & Composites; Yey! Modern Armour!

Now, and only now! Flight, Advanced Flight & Stealth.

Finally (for now anyway): build order? I think Factories are a must but is there anything else other than maybe Barracks... they are cheap (1 or 2 turns). So what do you reckon Worker first, factory then Research until Modern Armour and TOTAL WAR!

 

[Firmlife]

It sounds like you played a Modern start. I think no matter what you're playing, you want to war early and often. For a modern start, tanks are a great way to take cities fast.

I generally don't try to generate a lot of Great People. I generate one for an early Golden Age to help get my cities up to speed and to avoid two turns of anarchy (one for changing civics, one for declaring a religion). And I generate another to found Sid's Sushi if an AI doesn't beat me to it.

I think you want to start with something like Organized Religion to help get your cities up to speed, but Caste System/State Property with workshops is fairly standard for late warmongering games.

I haven't figured out the best tech path yet. I've seen people in Modern warmongering games just not tech at all, but I think that won't do in a Time game. I think you'll need to keep up. I'd research techs for trading. You shouldn't be researching something like Flight yourself, you should be trading a different tech for Flight.

In general, I'd encourage you to look at some of the other games that you might want to emulate. You'll learn far more from opening up someone's partially played game(s) than you will from reading the forums. I personally tend to get stuck in what's familiar sometimes. For instance, I'd never done Caste System/State Property/Workshops before. But I downloaded some games where people use that technique well, I'm learning now, and I'm trying to modify that approach to be suitable for a Time game.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Hi Firmlife,

I'll keep posting here in the hope that somebody else chips in. I played again today, tried Nationhood hoping to draft a small army of Infantry to complement the 3 starting marines and go on the offensive right of the bat. If only it was that easy, a city needs a population of 7 to draft; back to the drawing board.

Also tried Environmentalism which did resolve most of the health issues but highlighted the need to appease happiness with...um... err... like maybe Emancipation. So if I lose Nationhood and pick-up Free Speech & swap Representation with Universal Suffrage... we are back to Cottage Spam; which doesn't sit right, does it? But needs trying all the same.

Although I got my arse spanked again I will take some positives from the today's game:

#1 BUILD THE INTERNET, I got: Flight, Rocketry, Fission, Refrigeration, Satellites, Mass Media, Laser, Ecology, Superconductors, Fiber Optics, Robotics & Genetics. Yes that's how far I'd fallen behind!
#2 MECHANIZED INFANTRY ROCK! revised tech path: Plastics, Radio, Computers, Robotics then stop ALL research.

My nagging question is still how to Blitz an opponent with just 3 marines?

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Good afternoon gentlemen,

As wrong as it may seem I'm going to give the cottage economy a runout today but before I do, I'd like to look at the map and game settings. The scenario lists 8 opponents, whereas the game rules actually allow up to 14. Should the other 6 be added to 'crowd' the map? My train of thought goes like this:

• opponents have less space to expand; meaning fewer cities > lower production yields > longer build times = delayed spaceship launch
• border tension hopefully resulting in infighting > deflecting production to satisfy military demand = delayed spaceship launch
• limited resources creating more border tension; see above
• finally closer neighbours! aiding early warring on my part

The 6 candidates are Victoria, Peter, Joao, Mehmed, Napoleon & Suleiman. As a side note, the extra opponents probably support the need to adopt Emancipation too.

Working with the 'crowding' idea, 'High Sea Level' seems to expand the icecaps; compressing the landmass into a long narrow strip. Also different climate setting may further impede an early space launch... A 'Cold' climate creates more tundra or a 'Rocky' climate is just generally less hospitable with mountains and hills galore! All worth further investigation.

I have also 'checked' No City Razing, No Barbarians & Aggressive AI; have I missed anything?

I'm curious, what does 'Rising Seas' do? I know it sounds self-explanatory but is that not a Random Event?

 

[Firmlife]

I've been crowding the map for this. I'm not 100% sure it's the right move, as it gives you more opponents you need to deal with and force to capitulate, but it makes them easier to slow down and easier to conquer.

I think the big thing you need to learn is how to tech trade at Deity. You have no hope of keeping up with the AI's until you've swallowed a couple of them. With my first tech, I'm always hoping to trade it into two or three other techs. Especially if you've chosen wisely and few AI's have it, you can't be afraid to trade it for gold if that extra gold enables you to make an extra trade or two.

My current game is going well. 1986 and I have four vassals and one eliminated AI. Within range of the next target's capital. The AI's are definitely teching faster than in my other games, so I'm somewhat concerned that someone is going to run wild and get a spaceship before I can stop them, or even maybe a vassal will get all the techs they need and go for it.

Also, growing mindful of accidentally winning a domination victory.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

This really is back to the drawing board. I have tried various economies and tech paths but the simple fact remains they all suck. Not only does the AI tech fast but it also has awesome production capability and out strips me in all departments. I have achieved a couple of small victories in game play but I eventually get dogpiled; my best result to date is lasting up to 2014 and taking out 2 opponents before being killed myself. Last night I tried a 'Dooms Day' approach by researching Rocketry then systematically Nuking everyone yet still ended up banging my head against a brick wall.

Today I'm not even going to try and compete with the AI technically; the research slider will remain at zero and all commerce used to aid tank production. The 'Rush Buy' button is my new friend!

 

[Firmlife]

Again, I'd encourage you to look at what people have done in existing HoF games rather than try to reinvent the wheel. I used this game as a template for the game I'm playing. The quick summary is that he goes Organized Religion to set up his cities before switching to Theocracy/State Property to pump out tanks. His first war was in 1930, complete in 1942. He doesn't tech at all except at some point in the game to get Rocketry (which I suspect he might have bought straight-up with money from another AI) which he uses to nuke his last opponents into submission. I don't think he ever grows his cities past 10 population.

I don't think this is something you want to copy 100% for a Time game, since I think you do need to tech some, but it should give you an idea of how you should be able to conquer at least 5 or 6 AI by 2000 or so. Once you understand how to do that and have some confidence playing at Deity, you can refine and adjust for a Time game. I will undoubtedly win my current game. It is 2013, three AI are dead, six are vassalized, five remain (four of which are tech backwards), and I just destroyed Lizzy's spaceship by capturing London (and then immediately giving it back to her since I'm up against the domination limits). I'm not sure I would have been able to get this far without having looked at that game I posted.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Hi Firmlife, believe me I'm trying, really trying to make sense of what you are saying but I follow your link and takes me to the HoF. So what am I meant to do then? I've gone down the list; Deity, Large, Quick, Future, etc., and find Wastin Time's game with WoO. I read the Histogram & General Log, there is no 'meat on the bone' like what you're saying. Has he built cottages, workshops/watermills ect.? Where did his Modern Armour come from? He must have teched more than just rocketry. I'm obviously missing something here.

As said in my previous post, today I concentrated on tank building & amassed 40+ units before DoW my closest neighbour (& weakest). Captured 2 cities then the nuke fell like rain! The game continued until 2012 with me making no further inroads and to tell the truth I was glad when a ship eventually landed on Alpha Centauri.

 

[Firmlife]

I added a hyperlink to the text rather than just post the link, try again, it's working for me now. The game I posted is a Modern game with four saves. I'd download especially the second and third. The second shows you his setup, so you can see how he's lined himself up for the rest of the game. The third is from right after his first or second war. There's no need to wait for 40 tanks. I think my goal was to have 8 by 1930, with more on the way every turn, just to overwhelm his cities. I find I can usually take my first city with four tanks, but then my offensive often sputters, so this time I waited for a couple more.

By the time you've swallowed two AI, you're more or less on even footing with them. It is (ironically) slow on Quick since revolt takes so long, but you still get there.

I definitely have more experience than you on Deity, so don't expect necessarily to win your first game doing what he did. But I think you should make enough progress to not be so frustrated.

 

[Firmlife]

Just to be clear, and in case my links still don't work, the game I'm talking about is a Large, Quick, Deity, Domination Modern start by Shulec. I've also looked at the Wastin Time game you reference. I think that's a useful game to consider, but without having tried, I personally don't think a Future start like his can be replicated on a Pangea map. I think he took advantage of the fact that it's Archipelago and hammers are scarce to slow down AI spaceship production. That's why I've played mostly Modern starts. I think you've also been playing Modern starts. The fact that his is a future start is also why it seems like he hasn't researched anything yet can constuct Modern Armor. In future starts, you start with all techs.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Hi Firmlife, still no luck with the links. When I try to open the saves my laptop fires up civ 4 only as far as the first prompt screen; I think it stalls there because the game requires a earlier version of the Buffy 3.19.005 mod. I am seeing my son this afternoon and I'll ask him to install the 3.19.003 mod then hopefully we'll both be on the same page.

Having read through Wastin Time's General & Player Logs again, am I right in assuming the 'Always War' option has been selected as he DoW's upon meeting Lincoln and the other 7 opponents when The United Nations is built? Is there a benefit to this?

Also he adopts Organized Religion! and later Theocracy! but does not convert to a religion, surely the benefits from these civics do not work?

I'm also scratching my head although he captures New York as early as 1999 then Marseilles 2009, Sparta 2014, Tours 2016, Argos 2019 & Corinth 2028 the Player Log only starts recording unit production & combat odds from 2030 onwards.

 

[Firmlife]

Yes, I have to start CIV4, change to Buffy 3.19.003, then CIV4 restarts on it's own, and I can load games from the 3.19.003 era.

Wastin Time played Always War and Aggressive AI I assume to slow down AI spaceship building. I'd have to play with and without those settings on a Future game myself to try to gauge the impact, but my guess is that if you're going to be taking so many cities, and if you're playing a future start where the AI doesn't need to do any teching, that it has a minimal impact and might actually be a detriment.

The player logs are inconsistent in what they report. From what I've seen, they only report on production if there is more than one item in the production queue, but I've also seen they seem to change late in the game.

 

[Lcpl Jack Jones]

Eureka! I can see! Buffy Mod 3.19.003 installed; and a picture paints a thousand words… Firmlife you were right all along; WORKSHOPS! Yes, workshops as far as the eye can see!

Why?

I need TANKS… LOTS OF TANKS!!!

Thinking out loud: -

…But wait. A tank costs 84 hammers.

In a modern era scenario, you start with three Settlers who will form the nucleus of the empire by founding your first cities. To maximize their chance of ‘standing the test of time’ all three need to be hammer rich powerhouses producing 84+ hammers per turn; A.K.A. 3 TANKS!

The question is how?

So, let’s do the math: - A forge, factory & power plant combination boost hammer production by 100% and the Police State & State Property civics enhance military unit output by a further 35% giving a total production multiplier of a staggering 235%!!!!

tank hammer cost ÷ production multiplier = base hammer cost

84/2.35=36​

So, for a city to produce one tank per turn it only actually needs to generate 36 hammers… step in the workshop!

riverside grassland workshop + levee + caste system = 5 hammers

7 workshops = 35, plus 1 hammer from the city square; hey presto 36!​

In a nutshell, a city has to be a minimum of size 7 & able to work 7 workshop tiles to generate 36 hammers per turn*.

* with a levee & caste system in place

OK, that’s the theory now let’s put it into practice …

 

[Firmlife]

Yes, now you're on the right track! I hope you understand why I was insistent that you see it with your own eyes. For me, if someone tried to write a long post explaining it, it wouldn't have nearly the same impact and effect as looking at that map and seeing all those workshops and working out for myself what was going on and how there were so many tanks so early. I wouldn't have understood in the same, visceral way, exactly how to execute the strategy. I quite possibly would have done it half-hearted, failed, and given up on it.

My own modern game is done. I've won, but it got wild at the end. There were six spaceships launched total, one approximately (going by memory) in 2012, 2026, and then a series in 2038, 2039, 2044, and 2048 (which I just let go). That wasn't even the wild part. The wild part was that in stopping the 2038 ship, I started a war with Elizabeth and she just wouldn't accept peace no matter how decimated she was. I was going after her, trying to force a cease fire, my vassals were carving her up too. In the end, when she did accept peace (and I re-gifted her most of the cities I took) she immediately peace vassaled to Isabella who launched the 2044 spaceship. So when I went to war against Isabella, the same process repeated, she wouldn't accept peace after I destroyed the spaceship, and in the meantime my vassals were carving not just her up, but they were going after Elizabeth all over again. I was giving cities away, trying desperately to stay under the domination cap, but slowly my territory was expanding. In the end, the only thing that actually saved me is that all the new cities my vassals took were still in revolt by the time 2050 finally arrived, if the game had continued and the cities had converted and begun border pops, I would have either lost (by winning) or had to start giving away core, large pop cities I really wanted to keep.

I'm going to hold off on submitting the game until the April update is done. My score rather comfortably exceeds the current HoF score, and I don't want people to be able to find it in the HoF and know exactly what score they need to aim for to win the Gauntlet. Meanwhile, with the "quick" Modern game finished, I've begun a Classic start game, I know I left a lot of points on the table by, just as one example, vassaling a number of AI rather than just taking their territory for myself.