G&T's The Basques for Vox Populi

[Txurce]

One thing I'm wondering what the thinking behind the design was:
The bonuses suggest that going for diplo victory is the way to go. So statecraft and invest into alliances early. For this, I want to find all city states asap. Also, for the marine expeditions, I would want to explore early. On the other hand, the UU gets yields and xp for revealing tiles, but only comes at compass. These aspects are at odds with each other.

Brazil also wants to explore as little as necessary before getting bandeirantes. But they are primed for culture victory and have much less incentive to explore early.

Speaking out of the Basque context, I disagree that you need to find any CS early if you're ultimately going to go for a DV. The concept of ASAP barely applies to a DV, with the major exception of embassies. What CS are good for most of the game is boosting the BME — which increases no matter how you discover them.

If you're playing on a Continents map like Communitu— for which I would say the Basques are designed — you are probably going to find every CS in your hemisphere before you even have a boat. And you won't meet the rest of them until you have Compass. The same goes for the BME: you start getting dividends early thanks to your Pathfinder/Scout, but the bulk come once you hit Compass. Forget the CS and the DV (which I go for every single time): you have most of the oceans unexplored. You haven't lost a thing by having to wait.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Speaking out of the Basque context, I disagree that you need to find any CS early if you're ultimately going to go for a DV. The concept of ASAP barely applies to a DV, with the major exception of embassies. What CS are good for most of the game is boosting the BME — which increases no matter how you discover them.

If you're playing on a Continents map like Communitu— for which I would say the Basques are designed — you are probably going to find every CS in your hemisphere before you even have a boat. And you won't meet the rest of them until you have Compass. The same goes for the BME: you start getting dividends early thanks to your Pathfinder/Scout, but the bulk come once you hit Compass. Forget the CS and the DV (which I go for every single time): you have most of the oceans unexplored. You haven't lost a thing by having to wait.

Ok, continents map is a thing. I mostly play milae's map which is similar to communitu. There are usually no landmasses separated by deep ocean, so you CAN find every CS before compass, if you want. Why is it good? To get more yields from quests, chanceries and scrivener's office. And you can build up influence early with quests if you have found the CS.

 

[gwennog]

Ok, continents map is a thing. I mostly play milae's map which is similar to communitu. There are usually no landmasses separated by deep ocean, so you CAN find every CS before compass, if you want. Why is it good? To get more yields from quests, chanceries and scrivener's office. And you can build up influence early with quests if you have found the CS.

Hi @KlHannibal2 ,

If we collaborated, @Txurce and me, it is because we have the same vision, to fairly faithfully transcribe an existing civilization. There could not have been a basic postulate for the creation of the Basques that the earth is flat or that it has no oceans.

This is not a criticism of other types of maps, the plurality of VP environments leaves possibilities for everyone, it's great but it's not our vision. Other civilizations are quite specific. Personally, I don't see much point in playing the Huns on an Islands map or Polynesia on a Pangea map.
But I think Basques are not as specific and can adapt to other maps than pseudo Earth.

In game, the growth kinetics of the Basques is very close most of the time to their history, by putting them in AI, it is even more striking. A start open to the near world, a strengthening of infrastructures thanks to the Burdinola and the first contacts which open the development with the Basque Marine Expeditions. The Rennaissance arrives, the era of discoveries and exploration and Basque power explodes. In the industrial area, doubt, borders are closing with wars and we must work on these alliances to maintain a good rate of growth.

But the maps you choose and the way you play can work, I think with the Basques. You lose part of the gains from exploration but on the other hand, you have faster contacts with other civs and CS, therefore more returns from Basque Marine Expeditions. I don't think this is detrimental to the functioning of the civ.

I hope you will still find pleasure in it, you are one of my most ardent supporters .

 

[KlHannibal2]

Hi @KlHannibal2 ,

If we collaborated, @Txurce and me, it is because we have the same vision, to fairly faithfully transcribe an existing civilization. There could not have been a basic postulate for the creation of the Basques that the earth is flat or that it has no oceans.

This is not a criticism of other types of maps, the plurality of VP environments leaves possibilities for everyone, it's great but it's not our vision. Other civilizations are quite specific. Personally, I don't see much point in playing the Huns on an Islands map or Polynesia on a Pangea map.
But I think Basques are not as specific and can adapt to other maps than pseudo Earth.

In game, the growth kinetics of the Basques is very close most of the time to their history, by putting them in AI, it is even more striking. A start open to the near world, a strengthening of infrastructures thanks to the Burdinola and the first contacts which open the development with the Basque Marine Expeditions. The Rennaissance arrives, the era of discoveries and exploration and Basque power explodes. In the industrial area, doubt, borders are closing with wars and we must work on these alliances to maintain a good rate of growth.

But the maps you choose and the way you play can work, I think with the Basques. You lose part of the gains from exploration but on the other hand, you have faster contacts with other civs and CS, therefore more returns from Basque Marine Expeditions. I don't think this is detrimental to the functioning of the civ.

I hope you will still find pleasure in it, you are one of my most ardent supporters .

Having palyed most standard civs, I'm digging into the modded ones now. I have to give credit for the free content creation, and the high quality

The reason why I like milae's map is that it's very balanced for most of the civs. Huns as well as Polynesia can most times use ther bonuses on this map.

 

[Txurce]

The reason why I like milae's map is that is very balanced for most of the civs. Huns as well as Polynesia can most times use ther bonuses on this map.

That's a really interesting alternative. I've never played an Earth map, due to the obvious disparities, but see how someone could only play on that one because it's "real." I tried Pangaea maps a few times, but didn't like the way they limit navies. So Continents it's been, with Communitu having by far the most interesting land masses within a hemispherical system. I did always think it's a subjective decision, and never even thought about whether the Basques could function on a different sort of map. Gwennog being a true designer probably did.

Now you have me wondering what it would be like to play on Milae's map.

 

[gwennog]

The reason why I like milae's map is that is very balanced for most of the civs. Huns as well as Polynesia can most times use ther bonuses on this map.

I will test in the next game.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Milea's map sometimes has one landmass, sometimes continents. There are always many small and medium islands. 1 to 20 tiles, also with city states. Everything is connected by shallow water, but you can also add ocean rifts in the settings. So with the default setting, tech to cross oceans is much less important. The land itself has many short rivers (so Songhai is somewhat less powerful). Some parts are more open terrain, others have rough terrain and chokepoints. Taken together, it offers opportunities for almost every civ's kit.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Hi @KlHannibal2 ,

If we collaborated, @Txurce and me, it is because we have the same vision, to fairly faithfully transcribe an existing civilization. There could not have been a basic postulate for the creation of the Basques that the earth is flat or that it has no oceans.

This is not a criticism of other types of maps, the plurality of VP environments leaves possibilities for everyone, it's great but it's not our vision. Other civilizations are quite specific. Personally, I don't see much point in playing the Huns on an Islands map or Polynesia on a Pangea map.
But I think Basques are not as specific and can adapt to other maps than pseudo Earth.

In game, the growth kinetics of the Basques is very close most of the time to their history, by putting them in AI, it is even more striking. A start open to the near world, a strengthening of infrastructures thanks to the Burdinola and the first contacts which open the development with the Basque Marine Expeditions. The Rennaissance arrives, the era of discoveries and exploration and Basque power explodes. In the industrial area, doubt, borders are closing with wars and we must work on these alliances to maintain a good rate of growth.

But the maps you choose and the way you play can work, I think with the Basques. You lose part of the gains from exploration but on the other hand, you have faster contacts with other civs and CS, therefore more returns from Basque Marine Expeditions. I don't think this is detrimental to the functioning of the civ.

I hope you will still find pleasure in it, you are one of my most ardent supporters .

Just started a Basque game. I realized that not exploring early is much less of a drawback than I thought. You only get the yields from marine expiditions if you have open borders or are friendly with a city state. And the tiles need to be inside trade route range.

The civ is pretty interesting so far. The whale tile is a nice early boost for the capital that can help with a stonehenge start.

 

[gwennog]

Just started a Basque game. I realized that not exploring early is much less of a drawback than I thought. You only get the yields from marine expiditions if you have open borders or are friendly with a city state. And the tiles need to be inside trade route range.

The civ is pretty interesting so far. The whale tile is a nice early boost for the capital that can help with a stonehenge start.

Cool .
For my part, I tested the Milae map several times, with the Basques but also with the Kyivan Rus'. I agree with you on the distribution of resources and biomes, much more interesting and logical (more marshes, snow,...) than communitas for my taste. On the other hand, we can place continental rifts and therefore separate the continents by oceans. I find this configuration more suited to what I like to play while having the aforementioned advantages.
Thanks for the advice .

 

[KlHannibal2]

Some feedback from my game:

The early whale tiles are surprisingly good to start your first cities. Later they give happiness, sell for gold, give bonus science and allow for a second option of a corporation (if you don't conquer). They can also make god of the sea viable with a non-fishing luxury.

The UA gave me around 100 food at turn 180.

UI is nice to boost science and production and feels unique.

The minigame of naval exploration was very enjoyable. I was attacked by the Celts across the sea. 4 Karabelas cleaned up his fleet with ease. The science from exploration helped me to catch up with the AIs, with only one regular AI who was 3 techs ahead. However, I also had Revealations and Scholarship. I like the whale icon of the Karabela. Where they involved in whaling?

The Kapitain sounds nice. I did not get to use them yet since my ships are still exploring. The Influence sounds a bit weak. Just 30 influence with maritime CS. On average, there are 3 maritimes and you would get 90 influence. Not that much more than a standard diplo unit. Maybe give less, but for all CS. It would be more consistent. Nice icon and picture again.

The UB gives solid yields, esp. from fishing boats. Getting a sea luxury sounds like a jackpot. I just got cotton, but still did fine overall in my game. The production bonus for diplo units can go high, but often enough it is still more efficient do buy them. Maybe change that to price reduction for purchasing them.

I mentioned standard AIs. Well, there was one non-standard AI: Rome. And Rome absolutely went to town. By turn 180, they have wiped 2 AIs and vassalised another one. They are also 9 techs ahead of me and sit at 18 cities while I have 6. And building all the wonders now. These 4 AIs started very close together and Rome took full advantage.

So to win this, I would have to go full warmongering as well. Take out the other AIs before Rome does and become strong enough to face them. Not much in the Basque kit for this playstyle. Maybe the Kapitain couls use some combat buff for ships. Maybe damage reduction.

Overall, the civ gave a strong feel of maritime explorers. The blue background color for unit icons support that, along with the mechanics. Somehow similar to Portugal.

 

[gwennog]

Always thank you @KlHannibal2 for your comments and feedback and thank you for looking at the system but also the overall aesthetics which ultimately takes much more time than programming.

Out of curiosity, which policy branches did you choose?

Where they involved in whaling?

Initially, the UU was a fishing boat that gained proficiency until exploration. It didn't work when the AI played it. Set for fishing, he did not explore, set for exploration, he did not fish.We kept the icon because it was beautiful (I think) but also because the Basque boats and navigators did many things, privateer, fisherman, whale hunter, explorer, all at the same time. And above all, most of their exploration was carried out for the discovery of new fishing and hunting areas.

Arrantza-eremu Berriak in Basque means New Fishing Areas, hence the icon.

The Kapitain sounds nice. I did not get to use them yet since my ships are still exploring. The Influence sounds a bit weak. Just 30 influence with maritime CS. On average, there are 3 maritimes and you would get 90 influence. Not that much more than a standard diplo unit. Maybe give less, but for all CS. It would be more consistent.

In all the games I played, with the Balea bonus + the exploration bonus, I won 7-8 Kapitaina at least. On a standard world there are often 10-12 maritime CS. Provided you are not at war, that still gives a minimum potential of 2100 pts just with the Kapitaina. I think it's not bad but depend of the map, sure.

Nice icon and picture again.

Thank you, working with an AI like Antso was a first, I had never done it before.

The production bonus for diplo units can go high, but often enough it is still more efficient do buy them. Maybe change that to price reduction for purchasing them.

I agree with you and I think it's a very good idea, which also goes well with the civilization which has a lot of gold .

Not much in the Basque kit for this playstyle. Maybe the Kapitain couls use some combat buff for ships. Maybe damage reduction.

The Basques do not attack, they defend themselves. At the same time, with the production bonus on naval units, you can release an extremely large fleet from Karabela with a few cities, this is an important advantage but I will still consider your proposal. @Txurce, what do you think about this proposition?

Overall, the civ gave a strong feel of maritime explorers. The blue background color for unit icons support that, along with the mechanics. Somehow similar to Portugal.

Thank you again, we tried to think of all that, if the feeling is there, it means that we have succeeded at least in part.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Always thank you @KlHannibal2 for your comments and feedback and thank you for looking at the system but also the overall aesthetics which ultimately takes much more time than programming.

Out of curiosity, which policy branches did you choose?


Initially, the UU was a fishing boat that gained proficiency until exploration. It didn't work when the AI played it. Set for fishing, he did not explore, set for exploration, he did not fish.We kept the icon because it was beautiful (I think) but also because the Basque boats and navigators did many things, privateer, fisherman, whale hunter, explorer, all at the same time. And above all, most of their exploration was carried out for the discovery of new fishing and hunting areas.

Arrantza-eremu Berriak in Basque means New Fishing Areas, hence the icon.

In all the games I played, with the Balea bonus + the exploration bonus, I won 7-8 Kapitaina at least. On a standard world there are often 10-12 maritime CS. Provided you are not at war, that still gives a minimum potential of 2100 pts just with the Kapitaina. I think it's not bad but depend of the map, sure.

Thank you, working with an AI like Antso was a first, I had never done it before.

I agree with you and I think it's a very good idea, which also goes well with the civilization which has a lot of gold .

The Basques do not attack, they defend themselves. At the same time, with the production bonus on naval units, you can release an extremely large fleet from Karabela with a few cities, this is an important advantage but I will still consider your proposal. @Txurce, what do you think about this proposition?

Thank you again, we tried to think of all that, if the feeling is there, it means that we have succeeded at least in part.

I went progress into statecraft. Got stonehenge, which was helped by the whale. Also got petra and roman forum. I thought if I get extra production for diplo units, I might as well boost them.

The whale icon still fits, since in-game you also want to find fish and especially whale tiles.

10 to 12 maritime city states? A standard game has 16 city states. There are 5 types in total, one bring maritime. So I supposed to average 3 maritimes in a game. Or do you mean coastal city states in contrast to landlocked ones?

I think you succeeded not just on that part. It's a well rounded civ.

The warfare aspect is not so much civ specific. Recently I have struggled with peaceful games on deity. Might have to do with milae's map which is bigger than standard. Civs can often get 8 cities without conquest. If there is a successful war monger, things can get out of hand and it feels so much safer to conquer at least to some extent. I guess they wanted to make war monger AIs more competitive and succeeded. This game was an exception with Rome. Usually I see an AI only take out a single other AI on a standard map.

As for a fighting bonus on the Kapitain: Portugal gets to refresh all naval units' movement when expending an admiral (more UC). That's pretty strong, but they still feel like an explorer and trading civ. For the Kapitain, it does not have to be game-breaking. Sure a seasoned explorer captain can bring some useful experience to a naval battle, that admirals of more land-focussed civs would not have.

 

[Txurce]

The Basques do not attack, they defend themselves. At the same time, with the production bonus on naval units, you can release an extremely large fleet from Karabela with a few cities, this is an important advantage but I will still consider your proposal. @Txurce, what do you think about this proposition?

Gwennog, the Kapitaina is already interesting with the stealth raiding, but something... unusual... for warfare is always fun. As KIHannibal2 indicated, the Karabela are very powerful already. In fact, while I play peacefully, as it's optimal with the Basques, I look forward to being attacked by someone I can hit back in the water. If we're goign to augment the GA, could we come up with something different?

By the way, KIHannibal2, the Basques always found a religion in my games thanks to God of the Sea, and are often the first, using a Monument-Shrine start in the capital, then reversing that for the rest. I haven't felt the need to go for Stonehenge. Instead I tend to get Pyramids often, thanks to the whale.

 

[gwennog]

10 to 12 maritime city states? A standard game has 16 city states. There are 5 types in total, one bring maritime. So I supposed to average 3 maritimes in a game. Or do you mean coastal city states in contrast to landlocked ones?

Yes, an error in the description, it is the coastal CS which are affected and not only the maritime ones .

 

[gwennog]

Gwennog, the Kapitaina is already interesting with the stealth raiding, but something... unusual... for warfare is always fun. As KIHannibal2 indicated, the Karabela are very powerful already. In fact, while I play peacefully, as it's optimal with the Basques, I look forward to being attacked by someone I can hit back in the water. If we're goign to augment the GA, could we come up with something different?

Come to think of it, I'm going through all the civ mods I've participated in. I'll come back to the Basques afterwards.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Yes, an error in the description, it is the coastal CS which are affected and not only the maritime ones .

That makes sense then, the output is meaningful.

 

[gwennog]

The production bonus for diplo units can go high, but often enough it is still more efficient do buy them. Maybe change that to price reduction for purchasing them.

For this part, how much would you see the reduction when purchasing per open border ?

 

[KlHannibal2]

For this part, how much would you see the reduction when purchasing per open border ?

I have to go back to the game and crunch the numbers.

As for the Kapitain, what do you think about him giving the supply promotion to adjacent naval units for one turn? It's not a direct combat buff, but helps in prolonged naval campaigns and gives your fleet staying power far from home. This would fit well for a non-aggressive civ and would help the diplo game. I'm thinking of liberating and protecting distant city states or hunt distant barb camps for quests. And it would fit a civilian captain and explorer, bringing his logistical skills to the war fleet.

 

[Txurce]

I have to go back to the game and crunch the numbers.

As for the Kapitain, what do you think about him giving the supply promotion to adjacent naval units for one turn? It's not a direct combat buff, but helps in prolonged naval campaigns and gives your fleet staying power far from home. This would fit well for a non-aggressive civ and would help the diplo game. I'm thinking of liberating and protecting distant city states or hunt distant barb camps for quests. And it would fit a civilian captain and explorer, bringing his logistical skills to the war fleet.

I was musing along the same lines, but didn't have it nearly as clearly in my head. This is faithful to the historical vibe, and a useful trait.

 

[KlHannibal2]

For this part, how much would you see the reduction when purchasing per open border ?

After digging into the data I realized that balacing this bonus is very complicated.

Here is what I found out:
Gold and production costs of diplomatic units increase depending on the era you are in, not the unit type you unlocked.
They start in classcal with 100 P and 200 G and end in Information era with 1000P and 1000G.

So buying them seems to become more and more attractive throughout the game.

However, there are many buildings that boost production for diplo units (scrivener's office, chancery,...). From what I found out, you can get up to 80% production bonus in one city with all buildings and national wonders that boost diplo production.
So while in other cities it is almost always better to buy diplo units, you can have one city where producing them is competitive or even better than buying.

Also, there are many other production bonuns like railroads and train stations (each +25%) as well as bonuses for cheaper pruchases (-20% from stock exchange, forbidden palace -15% and -30% from completing industry).

I'm not even sure if I noticed every factor here.

The bottom line for me is there are two options:
1.) Stick with the production bonus which is only viable in one city where you stack other bonuses. If we go this route, more and more open borders for this bonus will have deminishing returns (if you look at how many turns a given city needs to produce a diplo unit). A hard limit for this bonus is not necessary IMO on standard maps. With higher player numbers, that could be different. The bonus could be between 10% and 15% IMO.

2.) Give a reduction to purchase cost of diplo units. Here, the returns increase with each open border agreement. If you stack the other bonuses, you are already at -65%. Getting the maximum of 7 open border agreements on a standard map would kick your cost reduction to -100%, making your purchases basically free (if there is no hard limit for cost reduction somewhere in the game).

I tend to favor option 1 because getting free diplo units or hitting a hard cap, where the bonus becomes non-functional, is not good. Also, option 2 forces you to go industry to max out your cost discount. However, I would suggest to get more feedback from more games and players on this question since it's really hard to find good balance from theory alone.