GEM Alternate History Scenairio. No more Attilla, A whole new world.

cheesemijit · Sep 7, 2009

------- THIS THREAD IS NOW OUTDATED, PLEASE POST ON MY THREAD IN THE SCENARIO FORUM HERE ------

After reading up on some alternate history scenairio ideas down at the RFC modmod forum (Here), I decided to finally make a scenario for GEM 6.2.1. To start with it will work just like a normal GEM Scenario with the preset civs just with different Names/ Colours/ Leader Names, but i would hope to eventually mod some features to compensate for the sheer ahistorical world created. (Gunpowder Roman Legions anyone?)

I will rely on outside help hopefully from the community that were discussing the scenario as to how the world will have changed, but a brief history is in the spoiler below.

The Start Date is 1400 AD, but the world has changed greatly.

Some Notes

- As this is not RFC, we can use alot more civilisations easily without also risking gameplay speed. This means multiple Native american civs.

- GEM is BIG, big enough for alot more detail and a slower gamespeed, further adding to how complex we can go with the alternate history. However, this mean more civs, more cities and more units, so it will be restricted to faster computers.

- RevDCM, there still will be revolts, civil wars and collapsing civilisations! i personally prefer Revolutions to RFC as it it much harder to take advantage of. RevDCM also comes with BUG, Influence driven War, minor civilisations, Tech Diffusion, Dynamic Civ names and alot more goodies.

- We will need alot of Minor Civs to represent Independants and not just one as that one will be too unstable with revolutions.

Current Task: Playtesting and Balancing
Now the map is complete i will create a page on the Scenario forum with the file and hopefully get some feedback

Then: Playtesting and Balancing
Possibly convert scenario to RoM

Back-Story

Spoiler :

- 434 AD
Attila the Hun dies at childbirth, to the tribe it is just another unlucky soul, they would never know how much one person could change the world.

- 434-476
With No Hunnic Migrations into Germania, the Germanic Tribes were not forced into conquering Rome, and thus the Western Roman Empire survived.

- 512
After a few decades, A new Philosophical Emperor came to throne. All it took was one charismatic and selfless leader to bring the WRE back on its feet, but he realised at his death it would deteriorate under other incompetent and greedy emperors, so he abolished the empire, gave more independence to further away provinces and set up a democratic government that improved on the original senate.

- 600-650
The Eastern Roman Empire, with safe borders in the north, was able to keep its army east, hold on to its outer territories and even quell the uprising of Muhammads Conquest and the Religion that came with it. With solid borders to the east they started to expand into eastern Arabia and Further South through Egypt. The Western Roman Republic and the Eastern Roman Empire are by no means friends, but they both understand the chaos that would erupt if peace could not be maintained.

- 600-1000
Without a Strong enough leader to lead the Huns westward, they begin to slow expand their empire into the less populous lands to the east. Eventually their borders stretch from modern day Ukraine to the Caspian Sea.

- 1206-1380
The Mongol Horde rises at the hand of Genghis Khan, and he storms his way through the Jin Dynasty (Northern China) and westward upon the Middle East and Eastern Europe. But alas, the world has changed; the Huns have grown their empire and defended their borders well, blocking Genghis Hordes from Europe. And in the Middle East the Arabian Caliphates never came and collapsed, and so a strong Persia blocks it from its historic boundaries. Nevertheless, The Mongols fight on and slowly progress through Iran and Russia, eventually reaching the Caspian and taking the city of Baghdad, where they meet an even stronger enemy, the Eastern Roman Empire.

- 1380-1396
The Long and brutal conquest of Russia and The Middle east drained the Mongol resources, and at the time of Genghis Death the Mongol Empire collapsed into The Timurids, Golden Horde Khanate, Chagatai Khanate and Oirats Khanate along with many other minor khanates.

- 600-1400
As the Byzantines Conquered Egypt and Arabia, the people of the Western Roman Republic lost faith in their rulers. Western Rome had not expanded its borders since Hadrian and The WRR looks weak compared to the ERE, because of this Rome decided to start expanding where it knew there were only weak tribes, south along the African Coast. However, after conquering a few tribes they reached Marrakesh, where their legions were ambushed by an army of moors. A war broke out between Rome and the Moors, and they seemed equal until the Vikings started raiding Britannia and Gaul. Rome had to pull some of their men back from Africa to defend their Richer Provinces, but the moors caught on and as soon as enough of the Romans had been shipped back to Gaul the moors rampaged into modern Morocco and kept storming through roman land all the way to modern Algiers, where they changed their path and used roman boats to sail across to Iberia, where they managed to take the southern half of Iberia within years. The Western Roman Republic and The Moorish Kingdoms have been at war since, and the moors have shown no signs of weakness.

Civilisations - Should Be Final Now

Spoiler :

Alot of Credit goes to Rallas who visualised and Described a Realistic Alternate History Scenario that i could turn into a Scenario. Thanks also to Lean and Zaragoth who offered their advice on the scenario and History. Thanks alot (and im sorry for this) to Wikipedia for helping me choose city Names and civ borders. Thanks again to Genghis Khan for the Wonderfull GEM and the 1500 map which i used as a base for the non-Atilla-affected world.

Rallas · Sep 7, 2009

A good starting date would either be around the late 1400's or around the 1700's. If starting in the 15th century this allows for Rome and China to choose where the will settle their American colonies. If starting in the 18th century it allows for 2 Americas, one of Chinese origin and the other of Roman.

Concerning the Byzantines' to those outside of the Empire itself it was alternated in name by either the Byzantine Empire(named after the original name of Constantinople) or the Eastern Roman Empire.

I don't think there should be an Arabian civilization as with the Byzantine Empire not weakened by having to send troops over to conquer the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, etc. this allows for more of their army to be in the Middle Eastern area ready to put down any uprising by the Arabs.

Adding in two Americas'(one created by China the other by Rome.) is also a good idea. If we do the 1700s as a starting point then the two should be selectable civs if we do the 1400s then they should be the first civ to form when a revolt happens in that civ.(if we can even make it so that the American civ forms only if the revolt happens in America that would be even better.)'

I'll try to put a map of how Europe will look in a bit.

cheesemijit · Sep 7, 2009

Personally i would rather go for a 1400's Start as i always get disorientated when i jump into a scenario in the industrial era as it puts me off. if we go 1500 there is an excellent 1500 scenario for GEM already and we can use that to help us with civs that wouldnt have been changed.

I was thinking even earlier when i wrote the civs, but we need to know the backstory before knowing exactly what civs. For example depending on whether the East has an alternate history too will affect Many civs as if it is unnaffected the mongols would still be at very large in 1400, and thus therefore would be better to start the mod at or a few years after the collapse of the mongol empire.

Would you rather go for just a change for europe or would an alternate event in the east too be better?

Looking for some Roman-Style Medieval and Rennaissance units. Just to add to the feel of the game.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7308
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7309
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7237
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7236

Rallas · Sep 7, 2009

Those unitss fit the style of the Romans as if they were to have furthered their technology later on.

Concerning the East i would say that it would be effected by the change in the fall of Rome not occuring.

Parthia if it exists should be really only around due to necessity as they do not want the Byzantines to further expand their influence into Mesopotamia. Without Attila to lead the Huns into invading into the West this causes the Germanic and Saxon tribes to not be forced into Roman lands. This means that the Huns will be located in Central Asia.(They can be used as a civ to block the Kievan Russia from expanding completely Eastward.).

The Saxon and Germania tribes would thus be living in Germany(Most likely fighting over land.) A situation i usually conclude in would be that Rome would be able to conquer some of Southern Germany as the Germanic tribes are beset with enemies from all sides.(Saxons in the north, Romans to the South, and either Kievan or Byzantine from the East.)

The Celts could be portray a Celtic Ireland or Scotland as Rome would not be likely to advance in that direction unless the Germanic tribes were pushed away. The Celts would allow for an opposition to replace the Saxons on the British Isles.

The Moors would exsist in this future just remain in North Africa due to the spread of Islam never spreading that far(Arabia would not be able to spread Islam with the Byzantine Empire blocking them.) making a more diverse Africa.(Which is good cause in most scenarios Africa only has normally Ethiopia, Egypt, and Mali.)

cheesemijit · Sep 8, 2009

What helped us with World 2009 was drawing it out on maps, i had a go on a Europe one here.

628px-BlankMap-Europe_no_boundaries.svg.png

We need to choose what alternate event happened for the east (if one) then work out a timeling of events, then set the date of the scen where most appropriate. For the scenario we want a period where colonisation is a near or already began, so that the Aztecs don't own all of NA when we get there. We also need a period where there is balance, so mongolia at its height won't be great, even though i have used that on the map i made.

Here is a rough timeline i have gathered from the thread.
- Attilla the Hun dies at childbirth, to the world it is just another unlucky soul, they would never know how much one child could change the world.
-With No Hunnic Migrations into Germania, the Germanic Tribes were not forced into conquering Rome, and thus the Western Roman Empire survived.
- After a few decades, A new Philosphicical Emporer came to throne. All it took was one charismatic and selfless leader to bring the WRE back on its feet, but he realised at his death it would detiriote under other incompitent and greedy emporers, so he abolished the empire, gave more independence to further away provinces and set up a democratic government that improved on the origonal senate. (how much more like modern day government would this be?) (is the WRR Catholic?, Othordox? or Roman Paganism?)
-The Eastern Roman Empire, with safe borders in the north, was able to keep its army east, hold on to its outer territories and even quell the uprising of Muhammed's Conquest and the Religion that came with it. With solid borders to the east they started to expand into eastern Arabia and Further South through Egypt. The Western Roman Republic and the Eastern Roman Empire are by no means friends, but they both understand the choas that would erupt if peace could not be maintained.

I need to know before i carry on
- Without Attilla would there even be a hunnic empire? and if there would be what effect would it have on the mongols?

- Throughout this all was India ever a unified state? and would the lack of Arabian Conquest/ Islam/ or Possible less likely success of mongols affect India?

-Should we have an alternate event in Japan? someone mentioned that if japan won a few battles they could have conquered southern china, therefore weakening china, causing an eariler mongol uprising, but not as great without genghis, therefore prevennting mongols from taking china or Russia, but successfull in taking persia. I think we should have this if a Hunnic Empire could indirectly affect the east, but if we have to squeze possibibilities for that to happen i would like to go with this alternate eastern world.

- Would Japan or China have ever colonised the americas? what about the Roman Republic?

- How Advanced would All these factions be? Were the mongols less advanced than say Japan, Persia or China? Would Rome have made many more discoveries without the dark ages? or would they have continued to have a lack of technological advances?

- How different would Africa be without Islam? Would the WRE and ERE be looking to expand their borders into more of Africa?

- Would the Vikings still have existed? Would they have taken more land?

- Who were the Kievan Russia?

Rallas · Sep 8, 2009

1. Without Attila there would be a Hunnic empire it would just not be forced into invading westward forcing the other Germanic tribes to invade Rome. That means that the Huns would most likely remain where they started in Central Asia.

2. India may possibly remain unified due to seeing that Rome never fell apart. The Gupta Empire was starting in the real world to lose it's influence(it would fully collapse in 550AD) perhaps with two stable Roman govs. it could model itself off of one of them and form a fully working gov.

3. Without an Arabia it means no Decca or Delhi Sultanate that means the Indians would be ruling themselves unless Parthia, or Eastern Rome, or even Western Rome tried to expand further influence on India with more then just trading posts.

4. Japan would still develop into a Feudal design of a state.(Being the only place in the world where feudalism is promineant.) the capital should be either Nara or Kyoto(Both were promineant capitals of Japan during 700-800s. With Kyoto being the capital after that.)

5. With or without Japan the mongol invasion would have occured at the time Gehngis was around unless there was another mongol leader to unify or there was a severe reason for them to invade.(China was falling apart and could easily be conquered by Mongol forces.)

6. China would have founded the West Coast probably a few years after the Spanish discovered the Americas. Japan it all depends on it's foriegn policy and if it wanted to be China that bad at something. Rome would definently find America just later then China does.

7. Rome would probably be the most advanced in the West with the Byzantine's in a close second. The Germanic tribes should be around 1 tech age lower.(Middle Age Rome = Classical Germanic.) China and Japan should be most advanced in the east with competitions between Rome and China for the most advanced nation.

8. Without Islam Rome and Byzantine would be able to conquer further and further into Africa since most of them would now follow Christianity. The competition now in Africa would probably be whether they are Orthodox or Roman Catholic.

9. The Vikings would exsist but would probably take up the Scandinavian lands with a few raids on the Germanic tribes in Germany(and possibly the Roman territories on the northern borders.)

10. Kievan Russia(better known as Kievan Rus') were a nation founded in the 9th century ruled by Scandinavian traders called the Rus'(They are the ancestors of the Russians.). They founded a nation in the capital city of Kiev which lasted until the Mongol invasion of Russia. The Mongols would now have a tougher time reaching them now because of the Huns remaining in Central Asia which allows for Kiev to last beyond its original ending date.

cheesemijit · Sep 8, 2009

I have updated the civilisation list above, still needs a bit more work. We will need more Native Americans and we don’t need Muscovy or Novgorod. Here is a world map with Civilisation borders. Feel free to give comments or have a go changing it. I will add a version without Civilisation names to make it easier to change.

I was having a look at the 200BC and 1500AD GEM scenarios. I think I will just edit this map, changing city names and placements in the west and then changing some Civilisations to make it earlier and to our alternate world. Most of Africa, China, and America will be the same.

Rallas · Sep 8, 2009

Just a request from me what are the nations(excluding the Aztec and Inca) that are located in the Americas? just so I can understand what's what over there. Otherwise well done works well.

Lean · Sep 8, 2009

I'm juggling a couple of things, but I'll be happy to help if needed. Alternate History is a favroit of mine, so I can come up with ideas, ect. if needed.

cheesemijit · Sep 8, 2009

@Rallas. Not sure yet. I was thinking Aztec, Maya, Inca, Iroqois, Cherooke, Apache, Sioux, North American Tribes (Minor), South American Tribes (Minor), and Amazonian Tribes (Minor). However i need to cut down on the civ list in the top post (in the spoiler) as i want to limit it to about 40 civs so there are room for revolutions, which i hope we can find a way to link to specific civs.

@Lean. Awesome, i am no expert on history so i need you guys to help with keeping this scen realistic.

Just keep debating the Civs, Borders, Relgions, Civics and Armies as you guys were in the other thread and i will try my best to realize them into a Playable, Balanced and hopefully Fun scenario.

We still need to decide on the civs and their borders. but two that we are set on are the WRR and the ERE. so i have made a tile map in excell where each tile represents an exact map tile so that we can put the cities into their Right locations and put their borders down which i will be able to replicate by changing the cities cultures.

Been doing some research. South-East asia is almost directly copied off a 1400 World Map, Africa only has a few civs but there will be barian cities within their colour on the map that will break them up a bit. The Americas the look starnge but all but the Iroqous, Aztec and Inca will be minors and there wont be many cities in their borders. this is the same with the Africans, Mongolians, Swedes, Finns and the Tibetans.

I will recompose the civ list to fit this map and then start on the Scenario. But there are some things i need you to help with.
1. India? How did Islam Historically affect india? and from there how would india have changed without the loss of the silk road? would they be more romanised? would they be split up or under one leader?
2. Fill in Borders and Cities on the Europe Tilemap below
3. Comment on my civ borders and History, i need to know if my backstory makes sence. and if possible add to it or completely rewrite it. this backstory will pop-up at the start of the scenario so make it interesting.

View attachment Europe Tilemaps.rar

Book1 is a blank Tilemap of Europe. Book2 is the same but with some civs filled in and the Capitols of WRR and ERE put in (Key to the right). Please have a go at City placement and civ placement and for each city put a Number on and then have a key for the citynames. the 200BC and 1500BC scenario's that come with GEM will help with city ideas but if you feel some should be different then add it.

Remember i am constantly updating my first post, so check back to it for more back-story and maps

Rallas · Sep 10, 2009

Islam came to India through trade and commerce. It came to be the religion in charge when India was conquered. Without Islam the only difference would be that India would be conquered by non-muslim Mughals' as the Timurids would(at least right now.) still exsist in this alternate world.

Due to the Mongols still invading the land silk road will thus be disrupted and eventually lose it's importance in the trade of silk. The only way the Silk Road could remain is if the Byzantine's can keep control of their part of the road and make extensive use of it.

However, since there would be no middle man stopping Rome(both Byzantine and Roman) from reaching India and China the Sea routes would still be greatly in use.(This even leads to a reason for why Rome would not need to explore west to the new world until China finds it's first colony.)

Northern India would not be as effected by Rome still exsisting however, Southern India would. I feel that 1 or 2 cities located on the southern tip of India should be either Roman or Byzantine. Trade occured heavily between Rome and Southern India culture and the stregnth of Rome could lead to the eventual takeover of a city or two.(Which can make the southern Indian nation at more tense relations with Rome or Byzantine.)

Concerning a earlier question about WRR it should most definently be Roman Catholic with the Byzantines being Orthodox. This allows for more distaste for the other.

cheesemijit · Sep 10, 2009

This should be the final Civ list and civ placements unless you have any objections.

Now i need to work on city placement. For most the world i will be using the same city placement, names and possibly sizes but for europe I will need your help so please use the GEMEurope Tilemap to place where you think cities should go and what there names should be.

For india i have split it into two civs. the gupta and the vakataka. These were both around in 475BC but historically were long gone by 1400. However with the roman empire surviving and with the Byzantines keeping their red sea access trade continued between India and Both romes. this will make India a fairly playable civ which is good for gameplay. I have given some of South India to Both Romans and i will start them both at war with the vakataka but will keep Gupta friendly.

Should the Gupta and Timurids be at war or peace?
Should ERE and Timurids be at war or peace?
Should Kievan Rus and Golden Horde be at war or peace?
Should WRR and Vikings be at war or peace?
Should WRR and Moors be at war or peace?
Should ERE or WRR be at war or peace with any of the North European Civs?
Please State anyone else that will be at war.

Would anyone be anyone elses Vassal?
Should we allow vassalage?
Should we allow city razing?
Should we allow barbarians?
Which Victories should be on?
please state any other options that are needed.

I have started work on the Scenario, i will be posting screenies as i go. However if i dont get your city ideas for europe then i will have to just use 200BC Scen cities for rome and india and 1500AD Scen cities for the rest.

Rallas · Sep 10, 2009

Gupta and the Timurids should definently be at war. Since the Mughal Empire would form around the 1500's the Timruids should technically at this time be preparing to destroy the Gupta Empire.

Concerning the Timurids and ERE it's a bit more complicated but judging by the territory we gave the Byzantines i would say yes the two would be at war as the Timurids wanted control of Mesopotamia.

Kievan Rus and Golden Horde should be at war since historically the two went to war.(with the Horde winning in the end but it's all up in the air now.)

The WRR should be at war with the Moors. As for the Vikings i can't really say.

both the WRR and ERE should be at war with any European civ that is located right north of their borders. In other words WRR is at war with the Franks, Vandals, and Visigoths and the ERE is at war with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.
The Song Dynasty and Yuan Dynasty should be at war as they try to claim complete control over China.

Gupta Empire should also be at war with the Vakataka Empire.

Thats about all that i can think of for those at war.

Vasals should be allowed, as with barbarians, any victory, as for city razing i'd say an option for that as well. As for nations starting as vasals i don't think there should be any.

cheesemijit · Sep 11, 2009

OK i finally done the Europe Tilemap with city names. it is a little rough as it is hard to mix different time eras and how i can pick up Medieval Hunnic Citynames is beyond me. Take a good look and suggest some changes. if you approve of this then the rest of the cities will be 1500 replica's except for south-west arabia (will be byzantine) and india.

Should there be a road from china to india?
should there be any war between india/siam/cambodia/malaysia/Papua/China/Japan?

View attachment Boo3.rar

Once i have completed the scenario would you like me to mod some stuff to add different unique units / buildings for the new civs as now say the huns will have mongolia's UU and UB as there is no hun civ.

which placeholder civs should we have for: each of the northern european tribes? the huns? the gupta? (would a classical looking india be better?), the moors? tibet?

Rallas · Sep 11, 2009

I like it only thing i'd change is mabye instead of having Corinthus it's instead Athens? My only reasoning is unless Athens was destroyed or lost it's importance in this new timeline it makes sense since it was an important city for many civs it should be placed in.

A little way for me to help is i'll name some good locations for civs capitals.

For the Visigoths they should have Illyria. It was an important region till the Romans took it over and by having the Visigoths make it their capital it allows for them to show that they are not just barbarians and can advance technologiclly.(So that Rome doesn't completely beat them in the dust with new techs.)

The Saxons should have Saxan as it can be considered the starting place of their civilization.

The Vikings should either have Inverness or Tonheim as their capital as both would be influential cities in control of viking lands.

The Ostrogoths should hold Warsaw as their capital so that it is well protected from Byzantine invasion. Perhaps we can make it so that the Saxons and Ostrogoths are friendly so that it makes even more sense for why Warsaw is close to another civs borders with no worry of losing it to invasion?

Kievan Rus' is obviously Kiev as capital no need to give a reason.

Stockholm should be the Swedes capital because of it's apparent strategic and and economic importance.

Technically Helsingfors was not founded until the mid 1500's but we can easily rectify that by saying the Finnish leaders were looking for a location for a capital and found it earlier then normal and founded the city.

The Vandals should have Kablow and the Franks can have Chauci. I'll develop reasons later on.

As for the Moors i'd either give them a capital deep in Africa far away from Roman attack or Corduba to make it a strategic military location.(Gives people who play Rome also another reason to fight the Moors other then just to fend off invaders.

Tiflis should be the Hunnic capital as that is relatively near Central Asia which could be equalled to where the Hunnic tribes began.

That's about it for the civs and their capitals.

Due to the jungles east of India i think there should be a road that connects to the historical Silk Road going Northwest out of India. Only problem for India is that it is controlled by the Timurids. This will give India a reason to invade Timurids instead of the opposite way around.

That's about it for tips i can say.

Placeholder civs is a bit more difficult and i'll have to think on those.

I came up with a good leader for Rome though. Romulus Cesaer. He can be considered a descendent of Augustus and Julius. since every Cesaer so far that was important created Dictatorships during their rule with Romulus be like his ancestors and reform the Republic into the Empire or will he keep the Republic and remain as Chancellor of it.(This makes it so when a Player or AI changes the civics of Rome to something more Monarchial or Totalitarian it makes sense.)

cheesemijit · Sep 11, 2009

Thanks, i have added your suggestions.

Do you think any of the city names are wrong? I know i made up Saxan, i couldnt find another name for it. but if you could think of one.

should the Finns have baltic access? i have moved their city 1 tile NE and changed its name to Finna.

Should the Hun capital be so far south? in history they moved their capitol around poland i think so if they expanded north-east would they move their capitol to the centre? the middle of there current empire is Sharukan. maybe make it capitol. How would you feel about putting the mongols in a position that they could take the huns fairly quickly, but not have enough recources to take Kievan Rus, that would free up russia a bit.

As for the leader i would rather go for Generic leader names like Consul, King of Japan. maybe the title for leader of rome could be. Praesieo Caesar (for president Caesar).

I have begun work on the map and will have cities done in a few days. Culture, Diplomatic Relations and Unit Placements will take a bit longer. Then i will have to go into the WBS to change Civ Names, Leader Names, Placeholder Civs, Colours (Feel free to suggest colours).

What should the speed be? personally i don't play anything quicker than marathon.

Rallas · Sep 11, 2009

I think the Fin idea is pretty good.

Having the capital in Sharukan is also a good idea as it lets Kiev also get the chance to invade and try and take it as well as the Mongols.

Generic names is good as well. If i think of anything else i'll post something.

Lean · Sep 11, 2009

Sorry guys! I'v been busy with school, and such, so I haven't devoted a whole lot of time to CivFanatics! I just checked things out, and my, this is looking quite amazing! I agree with your ideas for the Fins, as well as the capital movement. While I'd prefer more personalized leaders, generic leaders are alright, I suppose. If I'm not posting here, and you need any help, just shoot me a PM and I'll assist in any way I can. Keep it up!

cheesemijit · Sep 11, 2009

Tilemap: Added Africa. Changed Some Citynames in Europe. Made borders limited to cities culture.

I was thinking about Ethiopia. The Kingdom of Axum collapsed because the arabs destroyed its trade with byzantines and india, wheras now it survives and has grown and is a fairly well-off state.
should i go for it being crumbling as now byzantine conrtols the estern half of the red sea it doesnt need Axum as an ally to trade with the indians and chinese.

I have been researching the silk road and i see what you mean by going through the Timurids Land.
Would the Timurids allow this trade? or would china be blocked off from the west, causing it to be ven more warmongering against the mongolians.

View attachment Boo34.rar

Rallas · Sep 11, 2009

Some details i overlooked. Sorry about getting these things in a little late but again i overlooked them when i was looking at the map.(They are mostly just name changes so nothing major.)

Up to you but Syracusae or Palermo is the best choice for Sicily. Both were important in the Roman and Pre-Roman time so it works either way. The only change if the choice is Palermo is that it's location would have to be moved over two spaces to the left. If Palermo is the choice of the two it was known as Panormus when under Roman control. As for Syracusae it's plot is technically one spot south but it doesn't truely matter all that much.

Another city is Turris. Caralis(Cagliari today.) was and still is the capital of Sardinia. Both are promineant cities on Sardinia only difference would be is that Turris is in the north and Caralis is on the south plot.

Only change for Valencia is to Valentia as it is the Latin name for it.

Paraetonium was known in Byzantine times as Paraitonion.

Those were all the ones that i could find the Latin or Byzantine name changes for them all the others were perfectly on the dot. Question for cities under the control of the Franks or other ethnic groups that have language translations of the cities they control should we make the cities like Mainz instead Mayence or since the French language would not develop(since Latin would never come to their civ.) we should just leave those cities alone?

I think the Kingdom should be alright it just won't be a middleman to China and India for the Byzantines' meaning it will be less wealthy but should be alright.

The Timurids would I think allow Kublai and the Yuan Dynasty to trade with the West but would not let their enemies the Song Dynasty acess. A thing i would assume is that while the Timurids were their own nation they would still hold respect for the Great Khan's Grandson and his Empire.

GEM Alternate History Scenairio. No more Attilla, A whole new world.

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