GEM Alternate History Scenairio. No more Attilla, A whole new world.

[cheesemijit]

I chose both Turris and Syracusae to give Carthage a better radius so it is a better city and so that Turris can work the island north of Sardina. I also made the name changes you suggested and i will try to find some Germanic names for the cities, but i can't find any on wikipedia.

I will move Syracusae 1 tile south to be able to work malta (don't know why i didnt do that in the first place). Should i also add a city to south greece?

What is the Capitol of the Timurids? and what would be the alternate world name for baghdad and other currently arab named cities that would have remained Persian/Mongol named?

Also what is the Capitol of the Song Dynasty?

I will have to think about trade routes. I am going to add ocean instead of coast around the southern tip and maybe even eastern bit of africa so if Romans and Byzantines go to war WRR loses its trade routes with india. Do land trade routes work through an enemies land? i presume not but i might be wrong.

 

[Rallas]

A city down there wouldn't be so bad but would it interfere with Athens? If not then i say definently add it Sparta is a good idea for it since it was imporant in the Classical age.

Samarkand or Herat were the capitals of the Timurids so either would work. As for Baghdad wikipedia only has the name of it in Arabic(Bagdad) and Turkish(Bagdat) i'll go on Rhye's and Fall of Civ though to find out Persian and Mongolian names for it.

Kaifeng or Hangzhou are the possible choices for the Song dynasty.(I'd pick Hanzghou due to it being further south and thus not as likely to quickly fall to the Yuan Dynasty.) The ancestral name of Hangzhou is Lin'an and the ancestral name of Kaifeng is Bianjing.

They might. not totally sure of it but having that ocean there is a good idea. It makes it so that if the two due go to war Rome's Indian city can feel like it's all alone.

Here are some city names in German that are not already in German(They are mostly modern since there is not much record of the ancient German names.)

Vindelclium=Ausburg
Buda=Budapest or just Ofen.(either work.)

That's about all the cities i could find.

 

[cheesemijit]

I found the Timurid name for Baghdad. Ctesiphon, but if it had remained persian when the mongols took it it would be Selucia. Ctesiphon or Selucia?

Noted Timurid and Chinese Capitols.

I think the ocean would work as india's colony would be cut off from trade in real life. just like byzantines would be similarly cut off from americas.

I am going to find classical Germanic names for their cities because as you said latin wouldnt have spread there. however what religion would the germanics be?

Tilemap: Added Big Part of Asia to map. Filled in Cities for Timurids and India. Added Ocean round Africa. Changed some city names and places. Turris 1s and to Caralis. Syracusae 1s same name.
View attachment Book5.rar

 

[Zagoroth]

If we consider America to be discovered by Zheng He in his treasure fleet expeditions then I think they would discover before the historical discovery of the Spanish. This would require more alternate history as the expeditions ended upon his death. Just a suggestion, could you link the original thread on the Rhyes and Fall of Civilization Modmod forum? That way people just seeing this thread would know more of what is going on.

 

[Rallas]

Both are really good sounding capitals but i'd change it to Selucia becuase despite the Mongols conquering the region the Persian language and culture persisted into the time of the Timurids.

The German Tribes religion depends on Catholicism and Rome's opinion of it. If the Pope decides that spreading Christianity is important to them(Which historically he did and i would assume in this condition he would as well.) then i would presume he'd send missionaries into their lands to convert them. I would also assume that the Roman President would like this as well as it gives the Romans a chance to peacefully intergrate the Germans into their lands. Otherwise i'd say that we can either give them no religion to make little change or add another religion in to represent their paganism.

Here are some Persian versions or just other versions of some city names in the East
Baku=Baqy,Baki,Baky
Tabris=Tauris,Shahistan(This version is named after a Persian Emperor the other one and original is Armenian in origin.)
Nineui(I assumed this was Nineveh)= Ninawa(current Arabic translation for the province in Iran.)
Rayy=Rey,Rages,Rhages,Sharhr-e Ray(Persian)
Kandahar=Qandahar
Muscat=Masqat(Arabic)
Urgench=Gorganch(Persian)

Should we have Parsa(Persepolis) in the game for the Timurids? It was the ancestral city capital of the Achaemenid Empire and was an important dynasty until the fall of that Empire and conquering by the Arabs.

Heres the link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=332256

 

[Zagoroth]

Thank you, but I meant if Cheesemijit could post it in the opening post. I already know where the thread is...

 

[Rallas]

oh whoops.

 

[cheesemijit]

Added the link to the first post. needed to change some things there and will update the civ list.

Where would Parsa be?
For Cities around the Erythraean Sea i used this map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/PeriplusMap.jpg
I will make your city name changes
I might to catholicism to some ex-roman cities for the vandals, but otherwise i think they would want to avoid roman culture.
What religion would Vikings be?
What Religion Would India Be?
Same for Timurids, Ethiopia, Mali, Moors, Huns, Golden Horde, Chagatai, Oirats, Yuan, Song, Japan and pretty much the rest.

 

[Rallas]

Parsa is located 2 spots west of Kerman(Right next to the mountains that are west of it to make it easier.)

India can be split hinduism/buddhism to make Gupta nad Vakarata hate each other even more?

Timurids and the other Mongol related states should have either buddhism, catholicism(some mongols followed this faith and without Islam it would mean more would go to it.), or one of the Chinese religions like Taoism or Confucism.

Chinese Nations should have either Taoism,Confucism, or Buddhism.

Japan should have Buddhism.

Ethiopia gets a split of Catholicism and Judaism in its cites?

Vikings can either get Paganism(if we make a religion for it.) or Catholicism.

Mali and the Moors are the only ones i couldn't think of a religion for.

 

[cheesemijit]

i guess the chinese cities will have all the chinese ones and then just let them decide. but finding religious spread maps is hard, i might just go with the 1500 maps religions but change half the islamics to catholic. Eventually i would like to change hinduism and judaism or taoism with Orthodox and Paganism.

Do you want Parsa and Kerman? or instead of.

would the Romans had spread Cristianity to the indians or where they really strong buddhist/hindu's?

Oh and Holy Cities. I guess Catholic - Rome, Hindu - Patna, Buddhist - Lhasa, Judaism - Jerusalem and i will go with the 1500 ones for chinese religions.
if i make Orthodox (wont be untill after scen is done) then Constantinople? and Pagan... dunno for pagan, no city should gain money from paganism so maybe none. We might need to add an american religion to stop random religions spreading there upon discovery.

What woould the americas be called if china discovered them first? not that it matters but...

Moors would have spain and therefore traces of Cristianity but i wouldnt like them to convert to it. will have to wait untill paganism then give them that. Would Kievan Rus be Christian?

 

[Rallas]

Up to you on Parsa i just thought it should be included in some way since it was at one time an important city for the Persians.

The Romans would definently spread it into their cities and would try to spread it into India but i think it would be met with competition with the Indian religions already established.

Orthodox should be Constantinople. As for paganism the options are either have no holy city or pin the pagan religion on a specific type and find the origins of it.

An Americna religion is a good idea perhaps make it like Paganism and give it no holy city as well?

As for America i would persume that Amerigo Vespucci would still exist in this world(only he'd be Roman and not Italian) so the Romans would upon founding America still name it America and we can just have the Chinese give it another name(Perhaps something relating to Zheng He to remember his discovery.)

Kievan Rus would be Orthodox through their trade and connections with the Byzantines.(The two were close its how Russian Orthodoxy was eventually formed off of Greek.)

As for the Moors giving them Christian cities is a good idea and making them not have it as a state religion is also good.

 

[cheesemijit]

Ok as i work on the map i need you to help with units.
How many defedning each city for each civ?
How many defending the captiol/ specific cities for each civ?
which civs have armies prepared for an attack in their land or enemies land? (eg Song at Yuan borders) and then how many?
What Technologies for each civ?
What Units? (Depends on Technology)
What Promotions for all units of one civ or for specific units (eg Romans more experienced but less numbered than barbs)
Any hero units with a great general attached to start? if so what name and promotions?

Units will take more time and balancing than anything else on the mod.

also will we need to add any specific rescources to the map that would be there in this alternate world?
then also what wonders to what city?

also: would you be ok with me using Judaism as a placeholder for Orthodox and Islam as a placeholder for Paganism for now? maybe even one of the eastern religions as a placeholder for an american religion?

 

[Rallas]

Using a placeholder religion is fine with me.

When it comes to cities i'll draw an exact number in a bit but right now i'd say for large civs like Rome and Byzantine there should be more troops stationed at the borders with large numbers of forces at the borders where wars are going on.

For small civs they should have a good number of units in all of their cities.

The Romans, Byzantines, Moors,Chinese(Both Yuan and Song), and Japan should be the most advanced any others that should be added to the list for most advanced?

Romans should have Mostly late medieval/early Renaissance units. Byzantine the same. The Barbarians should have late Classical/Early Medieval units but enough where they can still deal damage to Roman or other powerhouse forces.

Thats bout it off the top of my head.

 

[cheesemijit]

Which civs should start with the gunpowder tech?
I would Assume india would be fairly advanced, but maybe not in millitary techs.
what about the recources thing?

 

[Rallas]

The Yuan Dynasty and Song Dynasty should both have gunpowder. If the Yuan is as open with Chinese secrets as the real one was then Byzantine's should also have it. After that it all depends on how friendly Rome and Byzantine are to decide if the Byzantine's will share the secret of Gunpowder.

The Gupta Empire should be advanced Culturely and scientifically. Militarily it all depends on how we are going to portray the Gupta Empire. The Empire was known for having an early form of a Secret Agency that caught criminals and other lawbreakers.(So perhaps it can give more a reason to have them be up to a Constitution in techs?)

As for resources i'd say we should be fine with what we have unless someone else can think of something.

 

[Zagoroth]

I would just like to say that Amerigo Vespucci, though he would be alive, would not have the continent named after him. The Romans in this scenario would not be the first to discover the Americas. Therefor by the time the Romans actually did catch on to the Americas, Vespucci would be dead. This is purely guess work, but I think this makes the most sense. If we are making two colonial American civilizations one half would have the religions of China, and the other half should be Catholic as that is the religion of Rome.

 

[Rallas]

Ah right i was forgetting that. But anyways whenever the Chinese discover America the Romans were sure to follow them(So if the dates of founding by China is within 1450-1510 Vespucci, an explorer would be able to eventually follow in suit in helping the Romans explore the new world.)

Turns out America is a Feminized Latin version of Amerigo's name.(Thus if Roman America was to split itself from the Mother Country excluding their culture being entirely Roman the names can easily be similar in ways to the US.)

The Naming of the Americas should be split. Any nation that speaks Latin or has friendly relations with Rome should most likely call it America while the Chinese and other nations with friendly or neutral relations with them should follow the Chinese. A way to make the name America seem more plausible for the Romans is to have historically in this scenario the Romans create a position designed to be commander in chief of the exploration and colonization of the Americas and Vespucci gets the spot.(So while he is not the founder of the continents his involvement with them is extremely influential.)

By the way should the Byzantines have land in the Americas? Rome and Byzantine should be close enough with each other that i would think it would allow them acess to have more allies on the new continent to aid if a war with China was to occur.(Otherwise mabye the Byzantine's can have acess to SA while NA is split Roman/Chinese.)

 

[Zagoroth]

Why would the Chinese let that information spread though? I can understand the other European nations learning about the Americas in 15th century Europe, actual history, but it seems unlikely that this type of information would be so wide spread that it appears to be fact. This would be opposed to just rumors as was the case for some of the Viking expeditions.

 

[Rallas]

Well the Yuan Dynasty was known for being less strict on the trading of information like the secret to Gunpowder perhaps(If they find America) through their relations with Rome they trade the information of a continent to the East of China(Which by itself gives the Romans a reason to explore West.) If it is the Song Dynasty civ that discovers America then I developed a second reason.

Another possibility is that the Timurids or some other civ blocks Roman trade acess to China(or places severe tariffs on them.) and as a result the Romans sail west knowing they will eventually reach China.(Romans were crazy about Silk as described in Roman-Sino relations, this possibility seems too similar to real life history though and i hope that we can avoid it as a reason.) The superstition of the world being flat would never come to fruitation as the common populace would still have acess to Greek and Roman literature that disproves this idea.

A third possibility is that the Romans had spies within China that revealed the information. Or the Romans seeking to rid their reliance on China for silk sail west knowing that there is something that way(either more land or China the reason could change easily.)

These are some reasons i came up with at the top of my head.

 

[Lean]

Thoes sound like sound theories. I'm pretty partial to the last theory, however, because it means that tension between two 'superpowers' exists, which could lead to war. I also happen to like the idea of a Byzantium South America, particularly modern day Brazil(New Byzantium comes to mind as a name). It also opens to possiblity of an Incan-Byzantium Alliance, preserving the Incan culture and civlization. The Byzantines could even expand north, into modern day Mexico, forming another alliance with teh Aztec, or simply conqueroring them.