Genius Design in Civ5 should come to Civ7

Although I haven't played Civ5, I will say this. On key matters of mechanics like the matter in the post quoted, every Civ iteration has developed a new system for nex game, and not, "brought back," the system of a previous one, effectively. I don't see how this should change. It should not neither be based on the Civ5 or Civ6 system, because that has never been the case. But, I sense a subtle, implied fear or suspicion of the unknown of innovation and grand new designed game mechanics.

Me? No.
I have no problems with innovation and newly designed mechanics.

I'm saying the game design should come back. Maybe slightly unclear, but I mean, the intention behind the Ideology system was to push players to pick a side and butt heads.
This is what I want back for Civ7. Not literally exactly "Ideologies"

Also, you should try 5's system. Just because you have to "pick" one of three ideologies does not mean that the system is rigid and boring.
All 3 of the systems have a variety of overlapping features and freedom of expression in them.
EG: Picking "Freedom" (i.e. Democracy), does not necessarily mean that you are locked into any particular type of play.
That choice is more geared towards Science, Culture and Diplomacy, whereas Order is geared for Science, Culture and War (for example, I don't recall specifics)

In this way, it's not too far off of Civ6's government choice; just that it's way more engaging with the other players.
 
One thought I had is that government could be assigned into three categories: militaristic, religious, and trade. I've not thought of them as factions but that label certainly could fit. There would be some way of accumulating use of each category which would place you into a faction at some point.
That seems just as simplistic and arbitrary - even Civ1 and Civ2 had more options. It's also highly ahistorical, and a LOT of Government types could not be cookie cutter pressed into them.
 
Me? No.
I have no problems with innovation and newly designed mechanics.

I'm saying the game design should come back. Maybe slightly unclear, but I mean, the intention behind the Ideology system was to push players to pick a side and butt heads.
This is what I want back for Civ7. Not literally exactly "Ideologies"

Also, you should try 5's system. Just because you have to "pick" one of three ideologies does not mean that the system is rigid and boring.
All 3 of the systems have a variety of overlapping features and freedom of expression in them.
EG: Picking "Freedom" (i.e. Democracy), does not necessarily mean that you are locked into any particular type of play.
That choice is more geared towards Science, Culture and Diplomacy, whereas Order is geared for Science, Culture and War (for example, I don't recall specifics)

In this way, it's not too far off of Civ6's government choice; just that it's way more engaging with the other players.
As someone who has a dour, dubious, sceptical view of WW2 and Cold War propaganda, and see the Cold War as the dirty war of backing tinpot Third World despotisms against each other by exigency, not ideology, and, as I said, the definite nuances in those, "blocs," that are often overlooked, and that, "liberty and democracy," and the, "worker's revolution," usually, effectively, took a backseat, I couldn't get behind it with any sincerity.
 
That seems just as simplistic and arbitrary - even Civ1 and Civ2 had more options. It's also highly ahistorical, and a LOT of Government types could not be cookie cutter pressed into them.
I've never seen or heard of a video game that is not simplistic and arbitrary in comparison to real life. And any government that doesn't have guns, money, or religion isn't going to last long.
 
As someone who has a dour, dubious, sceptical view of WW2 and Cold War propaganda, and see the Cold War as the dirty war of backing tinpot Third World despotisms against each other by exigency, not ideology, and, as I said, the definite nuances in those, "blocs," that are often overlooked, and that, "liberty and democracy," and the, "worker's revolution," usually, effectively, took a backseat, I couldn't get behind it with any sincerity.

The best response I can give this is... It's a game... your views on real war history... don't really... I don't even know what to say 😭
 
I still fail to see why we should have two separate systems for religions and ideologies when everything reasonable people want from ideologies is stuff any good religious system should do, and everything else people wants is basically confusing cold war propaganda for history.

At the end of the say, they're both belief systems that governments embrace (and that in THEORY is supposed to govern their behavior) and that helps create political power blocks and alliances while serving as justification for politically motivated decisions. Just ideologies are religions with the spirituality filed off.

Having separate systems is in my opinions misuse of design work over a misplaced belief that we've really really really changed, we swear, and a tendency to overrate the importance of the twentienth century.
 
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I still fail to see why we should have two separate systems for religions and ideologies when everything reasonable people want from ideologies is stuff any good religious system should do, and everything else people wants is basically confusing cold war propaganda for history.

At the end of the say, they're both belief systems that governments embrace (and that in THEORY is supposed to govern their behavior) and that helps create political power blocks and alliances while serving as justification for politically motivated decisions. Just ideologies are religions with the spirituality filed off.

Having separate systems is in my opinions misuse of design work over a misplaced belief that we've really really really changed, we swear, and a tendency to overrate the importance of the twentienth century.

I see where you are coming from, but I do disagree. I think people would be upset for Religion to be presented the same as Ideology. One is supposed to be the word of God, the other is supposed to be the word of man.
You can change the form of government from Dictatorship to Democracy without much resistance from the people.
However, it's not exactly the same to tell everyone "Sorry, we are no longer X religion, we are now Y religion"

Maybe, the difference is that Religion is deeply personal, and Ideology is sweeping across a nation.
Basically. I think you'd offend people.
Plus, I don't know how you would do it even, since they are two things that aren't necessarily working together in real life.
 
I think you vastly overestimate how easy it is to change a state from communism to capitalism. Which is what an ideology change would be. And if you ideology and that of your people don’t match, there is a serious risk they will make you change whether you want to or not.

Government type are not and have nothing to do with ideologies in the twentieth century sense (which is what we’re talking about here).
 
“Ideologies are religion with the spirituality sawed off” is just a pithy, facile interpretation, is my point. My other point is combining ideology and religion makes zero sense from a gameplay perspective.
 
I still fail to see why we should have two separate systems for religions and ideologies when everything reasonable people want from ideologies is stuff any good religious system should do, and everything else people wants is basically confusing cold war propaganda for history.

At the end of the say, they're both belief systems that governments embrace (and that in THEORY is supposed to govern their behavior) and that helps create political power blocks and alliances while serving as justification for politically motivated decisions. Just ideologies are religions with the spirituality filed off.

Having separate systems is in my opinions misuse of design work over a misplaced belief that we've really really really changed, we swear, and a tendency to overrate the importance of the twentienth century.
Amusingly (and I mean no slight), this is very much a rationalist's take (or even a utilitarian's take?) on getting at the essence of two (imo different) things.

Do I see what you're getting at? Yes, absolutely, and the criticism of "just" switching from communism to capitalism is also completely valid. But (even though I don't really miss them in VI) I did enjoy the separation of religion from formalised ideologies in V. They stem from different things. Religious belief from faith, which is we we have early game pantheons into early religion. Ideologies are more mid-to-late, and function more, well, functionally. Does that mean people can't believe in them as much as some put their faith in religion? Absolutely not, people absolutely can.

But religions are codified with centuries of cultural history, spanning entire nations, whereas in modern terms ideologies have mostly (mostly) grown with specific nations, and pivots r.e. capitalism have only become more pronounced (in places like China, where capitalism is indeed very much welcomed) due to the global market and all the developments related to that. Religion is also something that has become more at-odds with modern ideologies, with countries reflecting this trend. They're very much similar-but-different things, to me.
 
“Ideologies are religion with the spirituality sawed off” is just a pithy, facile interpretation, is my point. My other point is combining ideology and religion makes zero sense from a gameplay perspective.
Please elaborate on this, because in my view, in the game Religion gets fewer bonuses and Influence as the game progresses, whereas Ideology is a Late Game system that in many ways replaces the religious fervor with political fervor.

Of course they are not precise equivalents, but they do serve much the same function (as has been posted) to governments and leaders and so could (emphasis 'could', not 'should') be conflated in the game.
 
Please elaborate on this, because in my view, in the game Religion gets fewer bonuses and Influence as the game progresses, whereas Ideology is a Late Game system that in many ways replaces the religious fervor with political fervor.

Of course they are not precise equivalents, but they do serve much the same function (as has been posted) to governments and leaders and so could (emphasis 'could', not 'should') be conflated in the game.
I think what you're getting at here could basically be summed up as "They both give bonuses so they could be merged." I don't think it's that simple.

There is quite a bit of distinction on the function of their bonuses. Bonuses for religion are quite customizable, and often focus bonuses towards things directly on the map. The bonuses also incentivize the player to proselytize their religion to other factions (not just through the potential of a religious victory; there are direct bonuses for spreading your religion).

The bonuses for ideologies in Civ 5 generally focused on helping urge you towards a specific victory path. Moreover, the spreading of ideology was much more passive and indirect; the only real agency a faction has here is in obliquely defending themselves against other ideologies by generating as much Culture and Tourism as possible. The spreading of ideology was moreso a tool to punish other factions, rather than to help your own. Forcing someone's hand and making them switch ideology is devastating in Civ 5. You lose an entire turn to anarchy--no yields at all--and you also lose all of the other bonuses you had accumulated for your existing ideology. There's no such punishment for religion, really.

Ideology also divided the world into blocs, while religion doesn't. Even if the world's religions could be consolidated into a few on the map, only 1 faction is going to be fervent about defending and spreading a given religion, and only 1 faction reaps the lion's share of the rewards. Ideologies are in contrast meant to be shared and are "unowned." This distinction and accompanying AI diplomacy modifiers really facilitate the separation of the world into blocs, which accelerates conflict and the end game.
 
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I think what you're getting at here could basically be summed up as "They both give bonuses so they could be merged." I don't think it's that simple.

There is quite a bit of distinction on the function of their bonuses. Bonuses for religion were quite customizable, and often focus bonuses towards things directly on the map. The bonuses also incentivize the player to proselytize their religion to other factions (not just through the potential of a religious victory; there are direct bonuses for spreading your religion).

The bonuses for ideologies in Civ 5 generally focused on helping urge you towards a specific victory path. Moreover, the spreading of ideology was much more passive and indirect; the only real agency a faction has here is in obliquely defending themselves against other ideologies by generating as much Culture and Tourism as possible. The spreading of ideology was moreso a tool to punish other factions, rather than to help your own. Forcing someone's hand and making them switch ideology is devastating in Civ 5. You lose an entire turn to anarchy--no yields at all--and you also lose all of the other bonuses you had accumulated for your existing ideology. There's no such punishment for religion, really.

Ideology also divided the world into blocs, while religion doesn't. Even if the world's religions could be consolidated into a few on the map, only 1 faction is going to be fervent about defending and spreading it, and only 1 faction reaps the lion's share of the rewards. Ideologies are in contrast meant to be shared and are "unowned." This distinction, and accompanying AI diplomacy modifiers, really facilitates separating factions into blocs, which accelerates conflict and the end game.
On the one hand, you seem to be arguing that Religion and Ideology as modeled in Civ V are different, which may be so (it's been too many years since I even opened Civ V for me to argue that one way or the other) but is irrelevant here, where the question is whether they are inherently different and therefore must be modeled differently in Civ VII.

And I argue that it ain't necessarily so.

Religion did divide the world into 'blocs': the terms 'Christian Europe' and 'The Arab World' (meaning Moslem) were very real and used for centuries and were defining terms even though neither faction was politically homogenous for most of that time.

And neither Ideologies nor religions were necessarily willing or able to spread. In fact, one distinguisher among religions is between those that were evangelical and spread to numerous populations, like Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam, and those that were as much ethnically/natively based as religious and did not spread at all outside their original cultural/ethnic group: Shinto and Zoroastrianism for two prime examples.

Virtually all the Ideologies, regardless of how doctrinally committed to spreading, developed distinctly nationalistic and exclusionary versions of themselves: Russian Communism was Russian first and Communist second (witness the inability to convince either Tito's Yugoslavia or Mao's China to adopt it in precisely the same form and the abrupt collapse of the Warsaw Pact members once Russian arms were not guaranteeing their membership in the Russian Communist bloc), and 'Fascism' in Europe, at least, simply became a general term for ultra-conservative ultra-nationalism and little cooperation among them at all. To quote another historian, "The velvet glove of Nazi Socialism was too threadbare to hide the mailed fist of German Nationalism" - and that could be applied with less success (chiefly for lack of sufficient 'mailed fist') to every fascist government.

Please understand, I am not trying to argue that Religion and Ideology are identical except on the most ephemeral terms, simply that they share a number of similar characteristics IRL that could be usefully used in game versions of themselves.

Yes, Religions could have serious benefits from spreading to other Civs/Factions - but not all of them. Yes, Ideologies were and are represented as Monolithic Blocs, but that was never true and doesn't have to be modeled that way - although relations between different Ideologies (or Religions) should have a component of negative/antagonistic effects.

How much the game might be served by having a distinctly separate Ideology mechanic in Late Game is yet another question, I think. My own feeling is that the conflict between Ideological blocs could be equally and more realistically (for what that's worth) well modeled by emphasizing Nationalism, a distinctly exclusive 'ideology' and its effects on the more 'universal' Ideologies like Communism or Fascism, which in fact weren't universal as they were applied IRL. Rampant Nationalism, whether applied to Communist, Capitalist, or Fascist state mechanics, would accelerate conflict in the late game as much as a semi-fantasy monolithic set of Ideological blocs.

It could also, again as IRL, potentially accelerate some kind of Supra-National cooperative mechanism, like the League of Nations or United Nations (or a much, much, much better done 'World Congress'), which would also be a unique-to-the-late-game mechanic to keep things interesting.
 
On the one hand, you seem to be arguing that Religion and Ideology as modeled in Civ V are different, which may be so (it's been too many years since I even opened Civ V for me to argue that one way or the other) but is irrelevant here, where the question is whether they are inherently different and therefore must be modeled differently in Civ VII.
Well my explanation was yes, they should be modeled differently, because we benefit by having them serve two different purposes.
And I argue that it ain't necessarily so.

Religion did divide the world into 'blocs': the terms 'Christian Europe' and 'The Arab World' (meaning Moslem) were very real and used for centuries and were defining terms even though neither faction was politically homogenous for most of that time.
Neither of those examples have ever been anything close to geopolitical ideology groupings though.
And neither Ideologies nor religions were necessarily willing or able to spread. In fact, one distinguisher among religions is between those that were evangelical and spread to numerous populations, like Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam, and those that were as much ethnically/natively based as religious and did not spread at all outside their original cultural/ethnic group: Shinto and Zoroastrianism for two prime examples.

Virtually all the Ideologies, regardless of how doctrinally committed to spreading, developed distinctly nationalistic and exclusionary versions of themselves: Russian Communism was Russian first and Communist second (witness the inability to convince either Tito's Yugoslavia or Mao's China to adopt it in precisely the same form and the abrupt collapse of the Warsaw Pact members once Russian arms were not guaranteeing their membership in the Russian Communist bloc), and 'Fascism' in Europe, at least, simply became a general term for ultra-conservative ultra-nationalism and little cooperation among them at all. To quote another historian, "The velvet glove of Nazi Socialism was too threadbare to hide the mailed fist of German Nationalism" - and that could be applied with less success (chiefly for lack of sufficient 'mailed fist') to every fascist government.
Yes, I understand very well that not all world religions have an evangelizing tradition. I was just describing how Civ 5 the game works.
Please understand, I am not trying to argue that Religion and Ideology are identical except on the most ephemeral terms, simply that they share a number of similar characteristics IRL that could be usefully used in game versions of themselves.
OK, I'll bite. How? I can't conceive of any sort of merging that wouldn't be (a) completely ahistorical, (b) hamfisted in execution and concept, and (c) totally bewildering to a player coming across it for the first time. In your post here, you've recited some facts about world religions and ideologies, but haven't given me much to go off of as to why it would be beneficial to combine them, and what it would look like.

How much the game might be served by having a distinctly separate Ideology mechanic in Late Game is yet another question, I think. My own feeling is that the conflict between Ideological blocs could be equally and more realistically (for what that's worth) well modeled by emphasizing Nationalism, a distinctly exclusive 'ideology' and its effects on the more 'universal' Ideologies like Communism or Fascism, which in fact weren't universal as they were applied IRL. Rampant Nationalism, whether applied to Communist, Capitalist, or Fascist state mechanics, would accelerate conflict in the late game as much as a semi-fantasy monolithic set of Ideological blocs.

It could also, again as IRL, potentially accelerate some kind of Supra-National cooperative mechanism, like the League of Nations or United Nations (or a much, much, much better done 'World Congress'), which would also be a unique-to-the-late-game mechanic to keep things interesting.
That's kind of neither here nor there, but my reaction to the idea is that shifting the concept of ideology to nationalism seems needlessly limiting in concept and execution.
 
I'm glad other people exist because I struggled to explain how I felt about this. 😂
Thanks

Also it's spelled Muslim, as far as I know, Muslim countries prefer this spelling.
I’m sure Boris didn’t mean it that way, but yes, the “moslem” spelling is horrendously old fashioned at best and offensive at worst. Its use today is largely limited to islamophobic contexts.
 
Mea Culpa, and thank you for the correction.

I have a lot of older sources in my library, and I have to be careful when terms have changed since some of them were written: all my old Russian sources misspell and mis-label virtually every place name in Ukraine by modern standards, for instance.
 
Most of the CIV5's Ideologies model could be used in CIV7 for religions, since the idea that religions should be founded by a civ to be victory relevant dont need to be replicated in CIV7. Of course be the founder of a religion could provide a powerfull permenent Devotion bonus but what if we can claim the title of "Protector of the Church" or "Defender of the Faith" that make you into the leader of that religion despite you didnt found it.
After all we are talking about Ideological Blocks, while Religious Alliances and more broadly religion based diplomatic actions are badly underused in CIV. I mean what about things like The Crusades and the Wars of The Reformation? And just think about the many christian, muslim and buddhist kingdoms that patronaged missionaries and conversion by conquest despite they didnt founded their religions. Of course somebody could said "they have their own particular modifications" but your pantheon already cover that, meanwhile the diplomatic advantages of nations that share the same religion are mostly unused. Any additional customization could be accessible once you claim the title as the leader of the religion.
Then some examples of sources of Devotion to claim the leadership of the religion:
* Being the historical founder.​
* Every controled Holy Site.​
* The percentage of your religion's global population.​
* Active Missionaries and Inquisitors.​
* Conversion of heathens.​
* Owned Relics.​
* Number of own whorship places.​
* Being a Theocracy.​
* Each enacted religious policy.​
* Defend any coreligionist main civ and CS from atacks of heathens.​
So once your Devotion is higher than the founder's you can claim the leader of the faith title and make that religion yours.

Also, as CIV5 ideologies are directly related to culture and the change between ideologies could become into a nasty issue for your gameplay. Then excuse me but religion is way more deeply related to culture that contemporary socio-political ideologies.
There is also complety posible to portrait diplomatic, economic, espionage and militar action directed to change others nations political ideologies like sponsor coup d´etat, guerrillas, blockages, intrusive propaganda, magnicides, boycotts, etc. After all neither USA or USSR designed their interventionist agendas mainly around tourism, they used mostly less "cultured" ways. :mischief:
 
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I'm the type of the person where the realism in the system doesn't really matter to the game.
It needs to be only "fairly believable" and "immersive" but not necessarily realistic or historically accurate.
 
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