GOTM rules discussion thread

[Pikachu]

After more than two years of astonishing succsess of the civ1 GOTM, it might be time to agree on a defined set of rules. Please use this thread to discuss what kind of cheats and exploits should be banned and allowed for the civ1 GOTMs in the future.

I'll start with defining some possible cheats/exploits. The lists are based on previous GOTM rule discussions in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=145741

Fisrt some good old cheats:

• Shift-56 CHEAT
  In version 474.01 you can refresh the map after pressing shift 5-6, and you will see the map of the whole world. You can click on the cities of other players and unfortify their troops, sell their city improvements etc. This was the player-test mode for Microprose play testers and is only available in version 474.01.
  
  
• TERRAFORM CHEATS
  It is possible to use Dack's terraform tool or other savegame editors to change almost anything you want in the game.
  
  
• SAVEGAME CHEAT
  If you save the game at any critical phase, it is possible to load the save game again and try any action again and again until the result satisfies you. For example the hut change to a city, you win the fight against an opponent etc.
  
  
• OCEAN RAILROAD
  It is possible to build railroads on ocean by putting settlers on ships. This way you can get the railroad bonus from your ocean tiles - extra trade (with fish you get extra food too).
  
  
• SETTLER CHEAT
  By clicking on a settler that has been given a command, it is possible to start the settler's action over and over again in the same turn. This way the road, mine, irregration etc. can be finished in one singel turn.
  
  
• SENTRY CHEAT
  If you move a unit into a city, give it a sentry command and then reactivate it, it will regain all it's movement points. If you have cities close enough and conected by road, you can for example use this to move your charriots vast distances in just one turn, almost as if you had railroads.

The next list includes some features that perhaps are not really cheats, but still could be considered morally questionable

• SHIP HOPPING
  When transporting units with ships you can move the first ship as far as it can go in one turn, and if another ship is waiting there it will take the units with it when it starts to move. Then you can move that ship as far as it can go in one turn too and repeat the process as long as you wish. This way you can transport troops infinitely far away in only one turn if you have enough ships in the right positions.
  
  
• LAUNCHING A SPACE SHIP WITH 0% CHANCE OF SUCCESS
  It is possible to launch a spaceship as soon as it has at leas one of each module and one of each component. The spaceship does not need to be connected with structurals. If the spaceship is not connected the succsess chance will be 0%. 0% succsess chance means that all the colonists will die during the journey, but the ship will arrive anyway, and you will win the game.
  
  
• SETTING LUXURY SLIDER TO 100% JUST BEFÒRE YOU WIN
  This gives more happy citizen and therefore more score.

And finally some legitimate military tactics that perhaps can be considered exploits because the AI never use them, and has no idea of how to protect itself against them:

• USING NUKES AS TACTICAL WEAPON
  If you nuke a city, all the units in and around it will die. Later the same turn your troops can simply walk in and take it. The victory is guarantied.
  
  
• SEIGE
  By occuping all the squares that can produce shields around an enemy city, that city can no longer support its troops. If the city square it self produces a sheild, only one troop will survive. If not, the city will become undefended.
  
  
• CURTAINS OF BOMBERS
  You can block fields with BOMBERS. If there's no other of your units on that field, just fighter units can remove bombers, so you can use curtains of bombers to defend an area by just keeping enough bombers in the air without using them to destroy any units of ai tribes. Then the ai can not enter that area (unless it has fighters).
  
  
• BRIBING CITIES
  If you have enough money you can use diplomats to buy enemy cities.

Feel free to discuss other possible cheats or exploits you know about too.

 

[Pikachu]

Now I give some comments to the cheats and exploits listed in the opening post.

Shift-56 CHEAT
This is obvioulsy cheating and should not be allowed. It does not work in the official GOTM version anyway (version 474.05).

TERRAFORM CHEATS
Also obviously unacceptable in competitions.

SAVEGAME CHEAT
This one is up for discussion. There are many different situations where reloading is more or less acceptable. Some examples:

-You hit the wrong key and accidentally give a command you didn't mean to give.
-You make a mistake of epic proportions that ruins any hope of recovering.
-The ai build a key wonder.
-You get barbarians from a goody hut.
-Extreme unluck in battle.

I think this kind of unpredictability is what makes the game so facinating. Managing the uncertainty is an important part of the game, and I think that reloading away this part should not be allowed.

OCEAN RAILROAD
Without the settler cheat, railroading the ocean is quite expensive, and the advantage is not that big, so I see no need to ban this one.

SETTLER CHEAT
I understand that some people see this as a feature of the game, but I don’t see the point. It is just a lot of extra work to make the game easier, and those who use it are mostly expert players already who should strive to make the game harder, not easier. Why not just build more settlers and do it the honest way? I think this cheat should not be allowed (except if you trigger the pollution bug, which pretty much makes it necessary to exploit the settler cheat).

SENTRY CHEAT
I have never used this, and don't know how powerful this cheat is. I imagine the usefullness of this is quite limited. If that is right I see no need to ban it.

SHIP HOPPING
I think this should be legal. It does take a lot of ships (and planning) to make use of this, and I don’t think it gives too much advantage.

LAUNCHING A SPACE SHIP WITH 0% CHANCE OF SUCCESS
I don't care about this one either way. We just need to agree one way or the other in games where early space win is the GOTM objective.

SETTING LUXURY SLIDER TO 100% JUST BEFÒRE YOU WIN
This must be legal. How can one decide what is the natural luxury level anyway?

USING NUKES AS TACTICAL WEAPON
It is a shame that the ai don't use nukes this way, but that should not stop humans from having some fun with nukes.

SEIGE
This tactics requires a lot of troops, so it does not unbalance the game. Historically it is also a completely legitimate tactics, and should be allowed. It is a shame that the ai don't do this kind of things too.

CURTAINS OF BOMBERS
This requires a lot of bombers, and has limited advantages, so I see no need to ban it.

BRIBING CITIES
This is a part of the game I don't like much, and the ai never does it, but still it is an intended feature of the game and must be allowed.

 

[SCG]

sounds like a good starting point. although i will admit i may have a rough time avoiding the settler cheat - i always viewed it as part of the game, and while civ2 doesn't have it specifically, engineers do allow for doubletime work, as well as the fact that if you click on the settlers/engineers in sequential order, you can still do 1-turn terrain changes using enough units. As a result, i've never gotten out of the habit of constantly clicking on my settler type units, even when playing civ 2, and i'm finding it troublesome while trying to find a way to play Civ1 again.

To a lesser extent, is the problem of v5 vs v1 - i'm getting a diplomacy bug trying to use the v5 patch that i don't get in v1

i knew about the shift-56 (although i thought it was shift-123456 until i saw it here), i just don't use it because it was clearly cheat mode, and it got tedious to watch when i did play around with it.

one side effect of the sentry/ocean railroad - when i used to play before i got better at managing ship chains, i used to create actual ship chains (kind of like pontoon bridges) - my units traveling along these bridges would actually gain movement, .1 at a time as they moved from ship to ship - it was kinda need to see a caravan at .1 move onto a ship, then go to .2 on the next ship and 1.0 on the next ship.

for the save-game cheat - in Civ2, we have a rule of no reloading save games, except when playing OCC and getting an advanced tribe. I don't know if we need a modifier on that because of the more unpredictable randomness of Civ1 or not.

regarding AI bribing, its been a while, since i usually played democracy, but i'm pretty sure that they do bribe on occasion.

 

[akaneda]

let me say at first, that i know my and pikatchus suggestions cant always be proofed, but it should be some kind of moral decision each of the participants should go through that acting else like is cheating then. and any victory gained that way is connected to shames u have to carry. if i dont win with fair play its ok to me, but u earn nothing ( i spell it N O T H I N G) by cheating. besides that most of that cheats grants u no victory against someone who realy is better than u!


Shift-56 CHEAT
This is obvioulsy cheating and should not be allowed. It does not work in the official GOTM version anyway (version 474.05).
--->DITO, BAN IT

TERRAFORM CHEATS
Also obviously unacceptable in competitions.
---> DITO, BAN IT

SAVEGAME CHEAT

We already had the point, what to do if ur game ends bad or ur first hut u open are barbs? u start a new game. and that would be the same like reloading in my oppinion and i dont see the point why that should be banned. i asume that on games before, when playing just for fun i sometimes reloaded till i found in each hut a new city. sometimes playing the russians i even repeated starting a new game till i had 2 settlers. and yes thats quiet poor. i cant say where to draw the line at the moment, but i cant agree to ban this completely!!

OCEAN RAILROAD
Without the settler cheat, railroading the ocean is quite expensive, and the advantage is not that big, so I see no need to ban this one.
--->DITO, ALLOW IT!! I never used it cause couldnt imagine that the effect is worth the work!!

SETTLER CHEAT
I understand ur argument pikatchu but let me say that expert players are running for the highscore. if u know ur winning anyway u just wanna hit the top! i didnt use it on the gotm and agree that i see no point in using it there cause its a LOAD of work which many dont wanna face cause its not what the game is about!
--->BAN IT

SENTRY CHEAT
I have never used this, and don't know how powerful this cheat is. I imagine the usefullness of this is quite limited. If that is right I see no need to ban it.
even after 15 years of playing i heard of this for the first time now and could imagine a large amount how to make that bug quiet usefull, so
--->BAN IT

SHIP HOPPING
I think this should be legal. It does take a lot of ships (and planning) to make use of this, and I don’t think it gives too much advantage.
---> DITO, ALLOW IT

LAUNCHING A SPACE SHIP WITH 0% CHANCE OF SUCCESS
I don't care about this one either way. We just need to agree one way or the other in games where early space win is the GOTM objective.
Ur right, i suggest a functionating ship, with one of each component and two of each modules, so that everybody gots the same aim. saw on the other ones saves on the last gotm that everybody had built a different ss, which makes it a bit strange set it in competition.

SETTING LUXURY SLIDER TO 100% JUST BEFÒRE YOU WIN
This must be legal. How can one decide what is the natural luxury level anyway?
---> DITO, ALLOW IT

USING NUKES AS TACTICAL WEAPON
It is a shame that the ai don't use nukes this way, but that should not stop humans from having some fun with nukes.
---> DITO, ALLOW IT

SEIGE
This tactics requires a lot of troops, so it does not unbalance the game. Historically it is also a completely legitimate tactics, and should be allowed. It is a shame that the ai don't do this kind of things too.
---> DITO, ALLOW IT and no the ai uses that too!! not straight forward i know but sometimes!

CURTAINS OF BOMBERS
This requires a lot of bombers, and has limited advantages, so I see no need to ban it.
---> DITO, ALLOW IT

BRIBING CITIES
This is a part of the game I don't like much, and the ai never does it, but still it is an intended feature of the game and must be allowed.
---> DITO, ALLOW IT and scg is right the ai uses that from time to time too!

and y good to start that discussion again!!

 

[Pikachu]

Apparently most people aren't interrested in rules here, but the three of us who are seems to agree on almost everything.

What SCG thinks about the sentry cheat is a little unclear to me, but I have a feeling that he wouldn't mind if it was banned, so banned it is, I suppose?

We still have one issue to discuss: Savegame cheats. The simplest solution would be to either just allow it completely or to ban it completely, but it seems like we want something in between, so we need to make clear rules about when it is ok to relaod and when it is not.

So when do you think reloading should be allowed?

If you hit the wrong key and accidentally give a command you didn't mean to give?
If you lose a city because you forgot to defend it?
If you lose a city due to extreme unluck in battles?
If you lose a single battle against all odds, like a battleship to a militia or something like that?
If you lose your capital?
If you get barbarians from a hut?
If the ai builds an important wonder?
If you realize that you want to change an important strategic decission you made many turns ago?

Please discuss other relevant situations too!

 

[simonnomis]

I personally never bother with the reloading thing, and think it's the worst kind of cheat. A player might as well use Terraform to achieve the same predicatble objectives (ie, the human player always coming out on top). Part of what makes the game enjoyable is the unpredictability of it.

I also don't think any of the cheats should be allowed at all, including railroading oceans, sentrying boats or units in cities etc. I don't see AI players doing this, so it's extremely unfair. On the other hand, most of the cheats require a player's goodwill, as we would be none the wiser either way. So perhaps pragmatism will have to prevail, in the sense that only those which can be verified can be prevented. But even then, people could cheat and we wouldn't know. So I really don't know. Maybe just an appeal not to cheat. For me, the GOTMs are just about a new challenge, rather than being the winner anyway. So it doesn't bother me too much either way. If a person wants to cheat, well, only they know that they didn't REALLY win that easily.

 

[Urtica dioica]

People here seem to want to ban the "settler cheat." I do too, but I can't think of a good way to do it. I put "cheat" in quotation marks because it's actually a set of bugs. I mark a difference between bugs and true cheats, like backtracking with saves and editing save files. There are only a couple of bugs I think shouldn't be exploited, since regardless of how much they change the game, they usually don't make it worse. Exploiting settler bugs, though, takes away the nuance of weighing the benefit of an improvement against the time it takes. They also make single turns slower (but maybe not the game, since there are only so many tiles you may care to improve).

I can count four unintuitive behaviors, or bugs, related to terrain improvements:

1. You would think progress toward an improvement would act on the tile itself, so if your settler left before finishing, the tile would be part done and the settler would have to start from scratch on a different improvement. Actually, progress is stored with the settler itself, which lets it "pre-charge." The settler that leaves can finish a new project quicker, and another settler that comes to finish up has to start from scratch.

2. You would think progress on improvements would only happen between turns. Actually, progress occurs both between turns, and every time the settler sets to work, which can be several times per turn.

3. You would think a settler that started a project with partial movement points would make partial progress, but it always makes full progress.

4. You would think starting and stopping a project with partial movement wouldn't restore full movement, but it does.

There are some rules you can make to prevent exploitation of some or all of the bugs, but every one I can think of has drawbacks:

A. After rousing, the settler must leave its tile, but come back to finish there later. Not being able to switch projects is silly, and sometimes the old tile is inaccessible.

B. You can start and stop a project, but not both in one turn. Allows pre-charging and an interesting exploit I'll call charge-as-you-go. For example, start irrigating the square you're on and keep it there 'til next turn, when you rouse and move it. It took 2 turns to start on the tile, but you got 2 turns of progress, once for starting on the old tile, and once for waiting a turn. With this rule, therefore, you can work on your improvement at full speed while walking to the tile you want to improve.

C. Force wasting time to make up for advantage. Who would actually follow this all the time? You'd lose track if you tried.

I wouldn't mind B, even though it allows a small exploit. The other options I gave are basically strawmen, but they're the best alternatives I could think of. As I see it now, it's either B or full exploits.

I'd gladly consider another idea.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Since games here are played all in fun and without hard feelings, it would be desirable to avoid all forms of exploits.

Of course, this is unenforceable, but a competitor's word of honor is all we can hope for and count on.

That said... I'm not a fan of the reloading idea. I've done it plenty of times myself, but not in friendly (or unfriendly?) competition.

So when do you think reloading should be allowed?

If you hit the wrong key and accidentally give a command you didn't mean to give?

This seems to be the only allowable reason to me.

If you lose a city because you forgot to defend it?
If you lose a city due to extreme unluck in battles?
If you lose a single battle against all odds, like a battleship to a militia or something like that?
If you lose your capital?
If you get barbarians from a hut?
If the ai builds an important wonder?
If you realize that you want to change an important strategic decission you made many turns ago?

Please discuss other relevant situations too!

History is littered with the ghosts of the unlucky. Those who triumph against all odds are the stuff of legends. Imagine reloading to allow Kublai Khan's ships to approach Japan's shores... or reloading after Thermopylae's tiny force held off your own superior army... perhaps Napoleon would have liked to reload after realizing he missed the weather forecast for Russia in 1812.

If things don't go your way, blame it on the "weather" in the GOTM discussion thread. What you may lose in prize money, you may earn in the sympathy of your fellow competitors. If nothing else, it makes for quite the war story.

 

[Veni]

Of course, this is unenforceable, but a competitor's word of honor is all we can hope for and count on.

Second this. While some may view CivI GotM in purely competitive terms, I'm inclined to believe it is the thrill of the game which brings in the small group here. As far as rules go, imo the best guidance as to allowable rules would be provided by the GotM poster, i.e. what he (she?) feels is allowable/allowed. Thereafter, it would fall on the player's integrity (or lack thereof?). Then we all individually run the gauntlet, and hash about it post facto

 

[damnation]

hi everybody

 

[Pikachu]

I also don't think any of the cheats should be allowed at all, including railroading oceans, sentrying boats or units in cities etc.

Personally I agree, but for GOTM rules I think it is better to be less restrictive. Some people like to use some cheats, and I don't see the point in taking the joy away only for moral reasons. My philosophy here is that the rules should make the game more fun to play, and make it easier to compare results.

Most people apparently does not want to use the settler cheat, but this cheat is so powerful that if allowed you pretty much have to use it to stay competitive. To refrain from using it in a competition where it is allowed would make you play the game on a whole different difficulty level than the rest, and comparing gameplay and strategies becomes meaningless. This is not in accordance to the GOTM spirit, so I think this kind of cheats needs to be banned.

Railroadinbg oceans is quite different. Sure it could make a difference with some special strategies (like super science city I assume), but with other strategies it is totally useless (like in despotic conquest). This cheat is not that powerful, and one can do very good without it, so allowing it does not force people to use it. Therefore I don't think it needs to be banned.

B. You can start and stop a project, but not both in one turn. Allows pre-charging and an interesting exploit I'll call charge-as-you-go. For example, start irrigating the square you're on and keep it there 'til next turn, when you rouse and move it. It took 2 turns to start on the tile, but you got 2 turns of progress, once for starting on the old tile, and once for waiting a turn. With this rule, therefore, you can work on your improvement at full speed while walking to the tile you want to improve.

This suggestion makes perfect sence. Surely this have to be the way the anti settler cheat rule must be implemented. Thanks a lot for writing this explanation.

If things don't go your way, blame it on the "weather" in the GOTM discussion thread. What you may lose in prize money, you may earn in the sympathy of your fellow competitors. If nothing else, it makes for quite the war story.

So true! The crazy unpredictability is what makes this game so great. You never know how the wars turns out, so you have to have a flexible military strategy. I don't really understand why anybody would want to reload away all this fun...


So should we say that reloading is not allowed for any reasons then? (except for if the game craches etc. of course)

 

[tuga2112]

i would say sentry "cheat" and spaceship with 0% should be banned.

reload the game is something i never did cus im just not that addictioned (but i never play emperror either lol) so i sopose it depends mostly on you guys. i'd say is legal within the exceptions pikachu said.

i would allow the settler cheat for 2 reasons.
1 its really boring to use it when you start to have to use several settlers and i believe if you lose "fun" for that it doesnt really make a diference.
2 this is the "big" reason i think it should be allowed. how the does it take 8x20years to clear a florest ? have you noticed the porpotions we are talking about ? a settler represents 1k people i believe. i dont think 1k people would take 160 years to clear a florest of the size of what 1 square represents. (1 square is 3/4 of the size of portugal)

i believe the porpotions are a bit unbalanced and the settler "cheat" does make it more balanced.
i could write a lot more to defend the theory of the settler "cheat" but i think you guys get the point i mean.

i tutally agree with banning the "real" cheats im talking about terraform edicting and shift-56

relating to the "setry" cheat i think it shoudl be allowed in the case of a unit being traveling on a railroad and passing by a city. we all know for some reason the cities count always as road" and they take of 0.1 movement even when you come from a railroad to another railroad because we are not allowed to create a railroad on a city.. and in reality cities that have a railroad near always have a railroad inside too. (not to mention the railroad graphics also support the idea that the city includes a railroad)

now in a side note. anyone making a GOTM soon ? just plz dont set it to emperror cus im not that good at playing xD

 

[hannurabi]

I have some historical scenarios under construction.If I manage to finish one, maybe I could upload it as a GOTM. Or you could set up new GOTM yourself. GOTM doesn't have to be any spesific scenario, just any saved game is good enough to be GOTM.Just tell us the goal of the competition.

I'm against all cheats, unless cheat is allowed as special rule for a game.