vikingruler
King
I have misclicked on Abstain when I meant to vote flexible. Could a mod plese change my vote. thank you.
Government Style Poll #2
- Thread starter Alphawolf
- Start date
Swissempire
Poet Jester
Here is the evidence of my arguement.
On the libeties part
Also
Bolded are the additional liberties granted to the citiziens of the triumvirate! The changing of state religion falls under the civics.
The flexible takes away even more liberties with this clause
I rest my case. If i overlooked something i did not Knowingly do so
On the libeties part
Alphawolf said:
Also
Alphawolf said:
Bolded are the additional liberties granted to the citiziens of the triumvirate! The changing of state religion falls under the civics.
The flexible takes away even more liberties with this clause
DaveShack said:
I rest my case. If i overlooked something i did not Knowingly do so
Swissempire
Poet Jester
ravensfire said:
I don't understand what your getting at here. I don't see how the rights are reduced, and for the rigiditiy of the rules, the Flexible government only subtracts the rules about mobilization, and that isn't that complicated. The other crossed out lines pertain to offices that the flexible disregards(losing jobs) and things pertaining to cross-ed out jobs, the mobalization, and liberties.
agian i challenge you to back up your statements
At present it's still a coin flip for me. The Triumvirate has moved a long way towards "normal" and that work deserves to be recognized, but philosophically I don't like offices that are set apart. I learned a lesson on that in DG6.
Haven't voted yet, on a kiosk at $.25/minute so must return later after I've decided.
Haven't voted yet, on a kiosk at $.25/minute so must return later after I've decided.
Pie-es-Tasty
Comrade
Both sides have made good points, however ravensfire, most of your issues on the Triumvirate thread have to do with simple typos (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it doesn't seem that big of a deal). The biggest issue I interpret that you have is from the "overrides" as you put it. It seems to me that these give power to offices that, without these clauses, wouldn't be able to acomplish anything. These "overrides" also have built in checks and balances. However you are correct in that the Triumvirate is not perfect, but then niether is the Flexible.
I will however withold my vote until ravensfire posts his comparison.
I will however withold my vote until ravensfire posts his comparison.
long time reader first time poster. I origannly liked the idea of the Flexible gov, but in the end, i think the tri has better construction and its claims have been backed up more. I could still probably be swayed to the flex side, if i was convinced, but swissempire's points have me boting tri now.
no hard feelings, i don't want to be ostracized before i begin
no hard feelings, i don't want to be ostracized before i begin
Swissempire
Poet Jester
its tied and the supense is 
me
o ya, 100th post
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
meo ya, 100th post
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
Dr.Civ said:long time reader first time poster. I origannly liked the idea of the Flexible gov, but in the end, i think the tri has better construction and its claims have been backed up more. I could still probably be swayed to the flex side, if i was convinced, but swissempire's points have me boting tri now.
no hard feelings, i don't want to be ostracized before i begin
You won't be ostracized by anyone here. But if they try hit them with a fish.
DaveShack recomends trout, I usually use a catfish. 
And Welcome to the Demogame Dr.Civ!
-the Wolf
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
As a note the Triumvirate has been updated to v5.2. Please you the link on the first post of this thread. All know typos have been fixed.
-the Wolf
-the Wolf
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Areas of significant difference. Note - it's a bit hard at times, as the Triumverate ruleset continues to change without the courtesy of a changelog.
Chaotic
One of my points is that the Triumverate system is Chaotic. Oddly, although it specifies many procedures, it leaves the coordination of other actions unspecified. Examples: All Assembly decisions, additions to Cabinet. This chaos is fairly systemic throughout the Triumverate system.
The DGVII ruleset assigns powers to leaders, and gives the President catch-all authority. The verbage used in that ruleset is broad, so that it's easy to know which leader should be running discussions and polls for decisions.
Vacant positions (specific to Triumverate).
The Triumverate specifically sets the Triuverate apart and seperate from everything else. A notable example of this is the absence of a member or the office becoming vacant. The process this proposal uses is to consolidate the already broad powers of the Triumverate into fewer people! Further, deputies for these positions are explicitly forbidden.
DGVII uses deputies for all non-Judicial positions, and provides for appointment of citizens to vacant offices. This appointment process is balanced by a Confirmation poll, that allows the chance of an appointment being overturned. We divide tasks into offices to allow more people to experience the game and to prevent a leader from being overloaded.
Presidential Nominations
The Triumverate does not allow self-nominations. This quite honestly makes no sense at all. As DS has suggested, all it takes is for someone to say "I nominate the entire Citizen Registry", and the rule is circumvented. No rational reason for this rule has been given.
Triumverate Elections
Part of the ruleset requires that the Triumverate is elected as a whole, and is then contradicted a few clauses later. I'm going to assume that the slate process is the intended process. This ignores the person that wants to run for a position, but doesn't have anyone to run with for the other roles. This person may very well be the most qualified, but because they don't have running mates, they are tossed aside. We, the citizens, will suffer for this.
Impeachment
The Triumverate does not allow for poor governors who otherwise follow the law to be removed from office. Although the recall provision is new, and has not been used,
Overrides
Just in case nobody's figured it out, I'm rather against overrides. Regarless, the Triumverate has them in multiple places, with multiple conditions and restrictions on top of that. It's not a simple process. The reasons I've seen given for overrides are "add conflict" and "respond to emergencies". Neither of these reasons are particularly strong. They don't "add" conflict, they shift who has the ultimate control. The "respond to emergencies" reason is based on the expectation that the Governor will be unreasonsable and NOT respond when requested.
General Structure
The entire Triumverate CoL is rather long, complicated and difficult to read. Sections don't read easily, and there are multiple contradictions.
With the Flexible ruleset, you can grab sections from DG VII and plug a clause on adding/removing offices and you're done with a solid, well-defined ruleset. To date, the supporters of the Triumverate haven't taken a critical eye to the ruleset. It's been people that aren't totally in support of it. That's not a healthy sign.
-- Ravensfire
Chaotic
One of my points is that the Triumverate system is Chaotic. Oddly, although it specifies many procedures, it leaves the coordination of other actions unspecified. Examples: All Assembly decisions, additions to Cabinet. This chaos is fairly systemic throughout the Triumverate system.
The DGVII ruleset assigns powers to leaders, and gives the President catch-all authority. The verbage used in that ruleset is broad, so that it's easy to know which leader should be running discussions and polls for decisions.
Vacant positions (specific to Triumverate).
The Triumverate specifically sets the Triuverate apart and seperate from everything else. A notable example of this is the absence of a member or the office becoming vacant. The process this proposal uses is to consolidate the already broad powers of the Triumverate into fewer people! Further, deputies for these positions are explicitly forbidden.
DGVII uses deputies for all non-Judicial positions, and provides for appointment of citizens to vacant offices. This appointment process is balanced by a Confirmation poll, that allows the chance of an appointment being overturned. We divide tasks into offices to allow more people to experience the game and to prevent a leader from being overloaded.
Presidential Nominations
The Triumverate does not allow self-nominations. This quite honestly makes no sense at all. As DS has suggested, all it takes is for someone to say "I nominate the entire Citizen Registry", and the rule is circumvented. No rational reason for this rule has been given.
Triumverate Elections
Part of the ruleset requires that the Triumverate is elected as a whole, and is then contradicted a few clauses later. I'm going to assume that the slate process is the intended process. This ignores the person that wants to run for a position, but doesn't have anyone to run with for the other roles. This person may very well be the most qualified, but because they don't have running mates, they are tossed aside. We, the citizens, will suffer for this.
Impeachment
The Triumverate does not allow for poor governors who otherwise follow the law to be removed from office. Although the recall provision is new, and has not been used,
Overrides
Just in case nobody's figured it out, I'm rather against overrides. Regarless, the Triumverate has them in multiple places, with multiple conditions and restrictions on top of that. It's not a simple process. The reasons I've seen given for overrides are "add conflict" and "respond to emergencies". Neither of these reasons are particularly strong. They don't "add" conflict, they shift who has the ultimate control. The "respond to emergencies" reason is based on the expectation that the Governor will be unreasonsable and NOT respond when requested.
General Structure
The entire Triumverate CoL is rather long, complicated and difficult to read. Sections don't read easily, and there are multiple contradictions.
With the Flexible ruleset, you can grab sections from DG VII and plug a clause on adding/removing offices and you're done with a solid, well-defined ruleset. To date, the supporters of the Triumverate haven't taken a critical eye to the ruleset. It's been people that aren't totally in support of it. That's not a healthy sign.
-- Ravensfire
Imerator29
Chieftain
ravensfire said:
Fine I support it I'll go through it and point out what I see are problems. But I believe you are missing Stilgar's critique of it, some supporters have taken a critical eye to it. But by the same token I haven't seen supporters of the flexible take a critical eye to it and you can't say that it is perfect. That is not a healthy sign.
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Yes, and no.
The Flexible concept doesn't have a full-blown proposal the way the Triumverate does. Quite honestly, take parts of DG VII, plug in the flex parts, and call it done. Tried and tested ruleset with 2 or 3 changed sections.
-- Ravensfire
The Flexible concept doesn't have a full-blown proposal the way the Triumverate does. Quite honestly, take parts of DG VII, plug in the flex parts, and call it done. Tried and tested ruleset with 2 or 3 changed sections.
-- Ravensfire
Imerator29
Chieftain
ravensfire said:
But what if the citizens don't want parts from DG VII, I know I don't until I at least find out what it is, you shouldn't assume that parts of DG VII will go into it. With the Triumvirate you have a locked set of rules to play by that are somewhat flexible, but the Flexible government can go in any direction become any abomination thinkable.
I for one do not like all the appointment that occurs in the Flexible, but that's just me.
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Imerator29 said:
And yet, the Triumverate also uses appointments (see Vacancies section), and allows for the cabinet to vary!
Hmmmm.
-- Ravensfire
Pie-es-Tasty
Comrade
ravensfire said:
As soon as I read that, it threw up a huge red flag. I was planning on, later after I had seen a few terms play out, mabye running for a minor office by myself, but if this is true, then I won't be able to do that. Can anyone else confirm that, or find the relavant section?
Are you also saying that the final Flexible government won't just the Triumvirate with sections crossed out, but it will be a mix of Triumvirate, previous Demogames, and completely new things?
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
Pie-es-Tasty said:
Section 5 is the Relevent Section:
It applies to the Triumvirate only not to a Cabinet member, Judge, or Governor. But I was about to remove it.
-the Wolf
ravensfire
Member of the Opposition
Pie-es-Tasty said:
I don't know. I'm going to toss out a section based monstly on previous DG's, with the flex stuff added. Ginger_Ale started this option, so they're kinda in charge of it.
-- Ravensfire
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
ravensfire said:
Since when was Ginger_Ale a "they"? 
-the Wolf
