Guide to 500k+ scores through Huge map domination on Immortal difficulty

How large can you grow your cities through having unhappy citizens? 25? 30? 35? 40? WastingTime suggests one can grow his empire on standard just like he would on large, but I don't understand how a city can grow to size 40 in 25-50 turns despite happiness and health caps being around 25 near end game on the 600th turn?

Say you could squeeze 100 cities on a standard map.. Do you think it is possible to grow them to size 35-40 for a total of 3500-4000 population score around turn 600-700?
About 30-35 with Broadway, Rock N Roll, etc at 0 culture slider. You can always squeeze more happiness out of Nationhood barracks, Free Religion, and the slider. Supermarkets (refrigeration) add health so that should take you about to size 30ish health wise as well.

I think no vassal states is the way to go as well to prevent the AI from making colonies and taking the domination limit lower. Its a frustrating way to win... or lose if you want to look at it that way.
 
I don't understand the concern for happiness. It has no effect on city size. Once you are working all your food tiles any population over that (happy or not) will not make any food. All you really lose is research, or whatever the specialist would do if it was happy.

I always have vassals off by default. I don't find many uses for them in my games.
 
Alright if happiness is not the problem, how much can you grow your cities?

If cities will be built within 3 squares of each other to maximize number of cities on the map without crossing the domination limit, then there won't be 20 farms per city, but rather 10-12.

Say Sushi is giving +30 :food:. Add food of 12 farms = 12 x 4 = 48. Total food generated is 78. You can sustain 39 citizens with that much food. 39 x 100 cities squeezed on a standard map = 3900 population points. Pretty damn good for a standard map.

On the other hand, growing to such city size will get gradually slower. At size 38, food surplus would be +2 :food:, at size 37 +4 :food:, at size 36 +6 :food:. Growing from size 38 to 39 with a granary would take like (33 + (3 x 38))/2 = 76 :food: (I have never had such a large city during my civ4 career)

Then with +2 :food: surplus, it would take 38 turns to grow to size 39. Not worth the milking.

So while you can theoretically grow to size 39, 38 turns spent from growing from size 38 to 39 is such a long period in late game that the score benefit you get from having the extra population will be insignificant.

There must be a reasonable point to grow cities during the milking phase. I think it can be found through backwards growing the cities. Let me do the basic approximation quickly and you can tell me where I've missed anything.

Growing from size 37 to 38 with a granary, this time with a +4 :food: surplus:

((33 + (3 x 37))/2)/4= 18 turns

Pretty good compared to the not practical 38 turns to grow from 38 to 39.

Growing from size 36 to 37 with a granay, this time with a +6 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 36))/2)/6= 12 turns

Growing from size 35 to 36 with a granay, this time with a +8 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 35))/2)/8= 9 turns

Growing from size 34 to 35 with a granay, this time with a +10 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 34))/2)/10= 7 turns

Growing from size 33 to 34 with a granay, this time with a +12 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 33))/2)/12= 6 turns

Growing from size 32 to 33 with a granay, this time with a +14 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 32))/2)/14= 5 turns

Growing from size 31 to 32 with a granay, this time with a +16 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 31))/2)/16= 4 turns

Growing from size 30 to 31 with a granay, this time with a +18 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 30))/2)/18= 4 turns (again 4 turns)

Growing from size 29 to 30 with a granay, this time with a +20 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 20))/2)/40= 3 turns

Before I stop, here is the calculation for a city size 20 and 25.

Growing from size 24 to 25 with a granary, this time with a +30 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 25))/2)/30= 1.8 turns ( roughly 2 turns)

Growing from size 20 to 21 with a granary, this time with a +40 :food: surplus,

((33 + (3 x 20))/2)/40= 1.16 turns (roughly growth every turn, just like WastinTime suggested)

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Summary:

For an overcrowded map, where most cities don't have more than 12 farms to work and sushi giving +30 :food:, it takes the following number of turns for cities to grow.

Cities until 20 population grow almost 1 citizen every turn.
Cities size 20-25 growth every 1-2 turns.
Cities size 25-29 growth every 2-3 turns.
Cities size 30-31 growth every 4 turns.
Cities size 32 growth every 5 turns.
Cities size 33 grow every 6 turns.
Cities size 34 grow every 7 turns.
Cities size 35 grow every 9 turns.
Cities size 36 grow every 12 turns.
Cities size 37 grow every 18 turns.

So total growth phase until size 20 lasts 20 turns. Until size 25 lasts 27 turns. Until size 30 lasts 40. Until size 35 lasts 71 turns. Until size 39 lasts (71+12+18+38)= 139 turns

Waiting your cities to grow 139 turns to max size is pretty long, so better is aiming for size 30 (40 turns) or 35 (71 turns)....

So ideal city size at the end of the milking phase is somewhere between 30-35....

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Btw, have I forgotten to take the effects of unhealthiness into account? Does each unhealthy citizen also reduce the food surplus by -2 :food: in addition to the regular 2:food: each citizen consumes?

I haven't played civIV long time so I am starting to forget the game mechanics, someone refresh my memory :)

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Anyway, I will assume the above calculation are correct. For a standard size map with 1000 max pop score, 100 cities * 30-35 citizens each = 3500 population score. Then a standard map indeed could have 3.0-3.5x max population score within 40 turns.

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Until how long later could a larger map size achieve same 3.5-4x max population score and still score as high as the standard map size with same population to max pop score ratio?! Well settler and sushi executive production is the limiting factor. Once sushi is spread to all cities it is a matter of only 40 turns to reach practical milking limitation on any map size.

Producing 300 settlers or producing 100 settlers... Producing 300 executives or producing 100 executives? And would it take faster or slower to dominate a larger map size? I would assume slower, but again you might be getting so many great generals and experienced army that could make your advances even faster.

Those are the questions you need to answer to determine which map size would score higher, because growing your cities to size 30-35 would take similar amount of time on any map size.

Poprushing a 300 :hammers: settler would take 3-4 citizens. Poprushing a 200 :hammers: executive would take 2-3 citizens. So poprushing both would take. 500/90 = 5-6 citizens.

Say you had 50 cities with sushi before the milking phase all at size 15. In 3 turns, you will have 100 sushi cities.

Then you must wait some turns for the new cities to grow so you can poprush them. The new cities need granaries to be built as well for faster growth, but let's say you won't worry about unhappiness for a long time, so you will poprush the granary, the settler, and the executive within 30 turns.

Growth happens almost every turn for granary containing cities lower than size 20, so if you wait 15 turns you will have again a city size 15. Also you poprushed the granary as soon as the city size was 3-4, took you 1 turn only.

Now, 100 cities poprush, 100 settlers and 100 executives. You end up with 200 sushi cities. Then, you wait another 5-6 turns for cities to grow their population back. Poprush another set of 100 settlers and executives. You got yourself a 300 city empire.

300 city empire all with sushi took 3+1+15+5=24 turns of poprushing.

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Conclusion:

Total milking phase for a large map would last 24 turns to poprush the settlers and the executives plus 40 turns to grow all cities to size 30-35.

24+40 = 64 turns to stuff a large map size with 300 cities and 9k-10k citizens without crossing the domination limit.

On a standard map size producing 50 executives and 50 settlers would take only a few turns, but again those cities would have to wait 40 turns to grow to size 30-35. Thus total milking phase for a standard map would be roughly 45.

64 turns vs. 45 turns... the difference between milking a standard size map and a large map size with 3x more pop score is only 20 turns.

The advantage of playing a smaller map size is, well, you would have spent less time producing those settlers and executives. And you would have spent less time conquering the world, assuming similar domination speed for both map sizes. How many turns would that make in total? 20-30 turns? 50? or even 100? As I discussed in earlier posts, those number of turns are not good enough to compansate the higher score you would get with the same popscore/maxscore ratio for a larger map.

I know both of you prefer smaller map sizes, but showing the patience to play a large map would pay handsomely in the final score. That is the way the game is.
 
Many thanks to VM and all who give their help in this guide. I found it very useful to achieve my first Immortal win on Huge/Marathon as Julius with 18 competitors. I followed a similar path and made a domination vistory in 1532 for a score of around 1/4 mill. I was unlucky that the pyramids was built on the other side of the map (a downside to worker stealing on your neighbours perhaps ?) so I couldnt capture and I didnt get techs via trade :(. I still enjoyed the victory and will try as Cyrus b4 I tackle deity.
I had 2 scientists per city and attacked anyone near who built a wonder and although I got to guilds 1st (for knights), I went for race to Lib and won although this meant my opponents got to cuirassor first. Still I got rifle first then had Rifle/Treb/Knight V Curr/Grenadier and then got cavalry soon after and then infantry and completed the win b4 I built an oil well which is new for me :)).
I guess built buildings a few times when I should have built units, but I wasnt in for the big score, just my first win ;)
 
this had turned into a great article with a lot of in depth analysis and maths. i would just like to thank VM, Wastintime and killercane for this effort.
 
I don't think there's much time left to get that 2 million score. The new patch 3.17 will hose this strategy a bit. Corp executive limit of 5 (like building missionaries.)
 
Well I have been away but I have a game in the milking stages with no real domination limit problems that I foresee. Hopefully I can get it done before upgrading. This new patch was sudden eh?
 
Hard to understand why they are putting a limit on missionaries and executives, and again hard to understand why this number does not scale with map size. They really should not be making such changes without asking us first :)
 
I think I have figured it out. Playing standard deity is a bit easier and the research is so much faster maybe 2 million is possible. I think Sushi can be incorporated several turns before turn 400 and thus you have 100+ turns for milking. Now, this is quite a bit better than turn 700 for huge.

The way this works is to eliminate everyone except for 1 civ you get to friendly. Events help with this to cancel out the -you declared on our friend penalty. The friendly AI will build settlers and workboats for your islands AND garner enough land that you wont have to worry about domination % until you declare on them.

THey also will research things like Constitution and Corporation for you, as well as some other things along the way. I messed up a bit in not getting Democracy in the game I just played (emancipation penalty!) but it really looks like a fresh new approach that is much simpler to implement; the AI was giving me +10 food in resources via Sushi and immediately at that. The test game was messed up from the get go by having no city razing on but really the approach looks good from both a time standpoint and ease of play standpoint.

I would also recommend having 2 AIs at the midgame so that both will settle several islands on Big and Small map.

Of course, if you can solve the research bottleneck on huge then that would be better overall still but this approach might yield 1.5 million. THe last huge Immortal I played was only 1.15. So the gameplan is now to hit 1.5 on deity standard and figure out a way to translate higher research into 2 million after looking at the way the game progresses.
 
Finished another Inca game over the past month on Deity Standard. Quite an interesting game. I ended up with 2 friendly opponents left, and Sushi incorporated about turn 400 again. Unfortunately my land area was only 50% for the most part. So how to win? Obviously AP was looking good. So I wait for the AP vote in order to win when the score looked about right. Pop rockets up, I hit 1.25 million, but dont get an opportune voting time. 2 votes came too early, and the rest of the votes ended up being to assign me more cities from the AI; between AP reassignments and culture flip, I must have added a dozen cities to the empire.

So no AP vote happens, but I have an engineer for UN, which I researched until 1 turn left to wait for AP vote. So finish MM, finish UN. But as I check my score it has fallen so much from messing around that it is now below 1.1 million. The AI is researching well at this time, so I look at HOF charts... it looks like I can get space race done if I switch to SP rather than use the units on strike free market approach I had been under. Long story short, I lose to the AI in 1618 via space race, despite us having launched at the same time (I was minus 1 casing, guess that is the tiebreaker?).

So... the friendly Deity Standard approach seems to work well in conjunction with going on strike. You just have to have everything in place before you settle all the executives at the same time.
 
Are you sure that you and the AI launched in the same turn, killercane? There are no ties in Civ IV ( due to the turn-based nature of the game ). Or the AI launched before you ( hence 1 turn earlier, given that the human is always the first to play in a turn, unless stated otherwise in the beginning of the game ) or your ship exploded ( you should receive a warning of that if you're using 3.17 )
 
Are you sure that you and the AI launched in the same turn, killercane? There are no ties in Civ IV ( due to the turn-based nature of the game ). Or the AI launched before you ( hence 1 turn earlier, given that the human is always the first to play in a turn, unless stated otherwise in the beginning of the game ) or your ship exploded ( you should receive a warning of that if you're using 3.17 )
Positive. I had thought during the game that he launched the turn after me. I was fully expecting a victory message, as it kept counting down to 1 turn to victory and then Washington wins a Space Victory! As I looked back through the turn log it showed we launched at the same time (2 engines, all thrusters, just minus the casing). Do you not get a message in 3.13 if your ship fails? That would be odd.

At least I know a bit about space colony wins now; it was an interesting game. Really, It was pretty instructive to look at Sushi and its relationship to culture and space victories.
 
Do you not get a message in 3.13 if your ship fails? That would be odd.
Yup..... only 3.17 introduced a message informing on SS failure. Before it you need to guess if the ship get there or not :(

But it looks to be a interesting game , in spite of the loss. And that is ultimately what matters ;)
 
Yup..... only 3.17 introduced a message informing on SS failure. Before it you need to guess if the ship get there or not :(

But it looks to be a interesting game , in spite of the loss. And that is ultimately what matters ;)
Well it would be a lot nicer if someone played some comparison games :rolleyes:.
 
Not me.... I'm a standard map player that has really some dificulties of even winning in Immortal, even more milking the cow ;)

i've read in a few more posts as well that standart maps are harder but i have to disagree. my following comments are for difficulties>=emperor

in huge maps you have many enemies. so let's say you have killed 4 AIs before 1AD. as standart, you will still have 6 more AIs. and this makes 4/5 AIs (nearly all AIs except AGR ones) with "-4 you declared war on our friend"

i can say you will be in war against 2/3 AIs at the same time also after 1AD.
but of course, these assumptions are for fractal/pangaea maps. for continents map, OK it is not a big problem. you early rush 2/3 AIs and then you are alone peacefully in the continent. and no AI in otehr continent will know what you slaughter you made in history :D
so continents type maps are great for DARIUS.

if you need a real challenge, then play in highlands map with CYRUS :) it's real fun!


and now my comments for JULIUS:

he is a beast. one of the best leaders in BTS.
A) org/imp has a great synergy.

B) UU is good but not best. because:
i) it's expensive (100: twice IMMORTALS)
ii) 8 instead of 6 and against every type of unit, not melee and archer ok, i mean this is better than a +%33 against melee. but instead of 8/6 extra, a free CR1 would be great.

C)+25% GP rate forum is good but doesn't have a big effect. as you will be having most GPs from cities with NP or NE, that it will only make 1/2 GPmore. most cities won't even have even 1 GP as GP points increase for each new one born.
 
camarilla said:
and now my comments for JULIUS:

he is a beast. one of the best leaders in BTS.
A) org/imp has a great synergy.

B) UU is good but not best. because:
i) it's expensive (100: twice IMMORTALS)
ii) 8 instead of 6 and against every type of unit, not melee and archer ok, i mean this is better than a +%33 against melee. but instead of 8/6 extra, a free CR1 would be great.

C)+25% GP rate forum is good but doesn't have a big effect. as you will be having most GPs from cities with NP or NE, that it will only make 1/2 GPmore. most cities won't even have even 1 GP as GP points increase for each new one born.
Julius is a mediocre leader imo but Julius of Rome is overpowered.

I also don't want to start another discussion about praets (there is for example virusmonsters thread about sword-UUs) but praets are hard to compare to immortals. Immortals might be better than the average defender than praets are and better when looking at cost/yeild; but praets have other advantage like longer livespan (and on marathon it IS very long) and no real counter around.
 
Julius is a mediocre leader imo but Julius of Rome is overpowered.

I also don't want to start another discussion about praets (there is for example virusmonsters thread about sword-UUs) but praets are hard to compare to immortals. Immortals might be better than the average defender than praets are and better when looking at cost/yeild; but praets have other advantage like longer livespan (and on marathon it IS very long) and no real counter around.

ok, you're right. let's not get out of topic, though i like praets and immortals both.
and julius is really good and as i don't use unrestr leaderds much, i judge leaders together with the civ.

anyway, the best success about all what you did in your game is IMO being able to build the wonders and required infrastr while being a warmonger.

knowing when to cease fire and attack again is very important.
knowing which city to capture and which one to raze is also important.
it seems you made the right decisions most of the time in that game.

generally a peaceful time should come after each big war because you are expanding and costs increase, and you are getting behind on tech during war. but as you are expanding and raising cash much thru capturing, you have a good tolerance for -30, -50 GPT for faster teching. and as land is power, you have a very good advantage with larger land afetr war. shortly, period after warring is very important.
beelining tech is also important, depending on the leader you can judge.
 
I have played some Rainforest maps and they are nice if you can get enough workers built to clear the jungle. The pop limit seems to be around 3300-3400 for Huge, and the starting locations are amazing in terms of food. These are on your base Rainforest, but I discovered that if you play a non rainforest map where you can assign sealevel to high, and then switch to Rainforest, the results are large lakes that can have seafood in them for the health bonus (health is a problem on RF). Some of these are the problematic cant-build-lighthouses kind however.

Rainforest is nice in that you can use cereal mills rather than sushi, and dont have to worry about the culture of sushi putting you over domination. The 120+ rice on the map generate the necessary food. Your great people farms can reach 400+ GPPs per turn relatively early with such high food areas.

I really just wanted to edge WT's Chieftain score so I quit at 604,900, but it seems I left 50-100K points on the board at 2500 points per turn and population left to be had.
 
I really just wanted to edge WT's Chieftain score so I quit at 604,900, but it seems I left 50-100K points on the board at 2500 points per turn and population left to be had.

I'm glad to get some sort of comparison, but keep in mind, I had never played a score game. Never used corporations, Never rushed to get Sushi early, didn't use slavery much if at all, I still don't understand the big deal with Cristo Redentor, etc. I was not very good at the many tactics used on this game. So if you're goal was to show that Huge is better than Standard size maps, you would need to play standard yourself. I'm betting you'd get 800K - 1 million on standard or large. However, if you goal was just to kick my butt, then Congrats! nice work! :king:
 
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