Heaven

[Berzerker]

Also the point that the fundamental worldviews of ancient peoples were incredibly different from each other. Cosmology was fundamentally different between cultures, in the way that they structured the nature of the universe. You can handwave this away by just being misinterpretations of the nine planets or whatever. But that's the thing - there are hundreds of myths and depictions, it's natural for some of them to coalesce around a number as low as 9 due to how numbers worth. Everything else beyond this is arbitration, the implementation of Nordic space cattle into Anasazi cave myths, the dismissal of fundamental differations in understanding of cosmic structure, the vastly different aesthetic styles being dismissed...

Why don't you count every time the number 1 of something appears in ancient depictions? I mean, it's 1, there's literally nine 1s in every system of 9. Wouldn't that be nine times the power of proof, besides all other numbers being present in these systems? Think about the number of 1s being represented in any depiction. Each instance of anything would count. But you don't, because it due to its nature as a number showcases that numbers are numbers and that it means nothing to point this out, particularly in a sea of inconsistencies.

I have three tables in my apartment. Does this mean I believe in the Trinity?

If I repeatedly find 9 "1's" in cosmologies around the world I'm gonna wonder why. Maybe the 9 months of pregnancy. No, MesoAmericans had 20 day months and the 9 'worlds' are celestial in nature, even in Dante's Inferno. Why dont we see religious cosmologies based on what we can see with the naked eye? Sun, Moon, and 5 (maybe 6) wandering lights. I can see lesser religions based on Venus or the Milky Way, maybe even some on Orion and the stars, comets, and shooting stars. But 9 worlds? Not just lights in the sky, but actual worlds. Why did these people think these were actual worlds up there? Well, the Moon is a big clue.

Like I said, the world should be filled with Sun worshipers with the Moon 2nd in popularity. Venus comes in 3rd followed by the even smaller wandering lights. But none of these are our creator. I think thats bizarre. Course thats just the sky, Earth worshipers will be competing with the Sun worshipers. But no, the creator is something else, an ellipse, an erect archer, Marduk armed with arrows, Odin and whatever he used to kill Ymir.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that you (Berz) are hiding the information.

I sent emails to some of the people looking for the 9th planet a while back (including the Sitchiniswrong guy) but I didn't send them a pic of the Fremont panel. I should, along with the text of the Enuma Elish and a copy of Sitchin's "The 12th Planet". Nah, they know about Sitchin. I'll bet they've been bombarded with emails and letters from his supporters. I cant imagine researchers can be happy about that, if someone does find the planet millions of people will be pointing to Sitchin.

At least in the greek standard theology (the dodecatheon etc), you can't have gods realistically tied to planets, for a number of reasons. A couple being:
-The gods of the olympian order are 12. Also, Herakles becomes a god himself. Moreover, at times you see the twelfth god being different (iirc either Hestia or Dionysos - who got transplanted later anyway - or Herakles).
-The existence of the Titanomachia would have to mean that every anti-olympian also was a planet, which makes even less sense. Although some of the titans indeed gave their names to planets (Ouranos, Kronos). Gaea (Earth) was not a titan, but the progenitor of titans (some etymologies present the term "titan" as being derived from the verb for extending one's body, since the children of Gaea did that while trying to get out).

Thats an interesting point about the Greek pantheon. In the Enuma Elish we're told about a group of 'gods' before the creation of Heaven and Earth, gods who 'mostly' became associated with a different set of gods after the creation of Heaven and Earth. And the Titans were Gaea's children? Or were they children of Oceanus? Okay, that jives with the Enuma Elish in either case, I suspect Oceanus is the proto-Gaea. But in that text Marduk splits Tiamat (proto-Gaea) to create Heaven and Earth, so did the Greeks have a pre-Gaea stage in their creation story? I should know that already, I'm getting old and forgetful.

And did the Greek pantheon maintain 12 members as older gods were replaced? That was Sitchin's proposition wrt Mesopotamian pantheons. The only way a city/state could elevate their 'tribal' god to the pantheon was by replacing another god. You say the Titans and Olympians cant be 'planets', how many of each were there? I think 12, but it looks like the Greeks have 2 generations of gods just as the Babylonians. The Titans were pre-Heaven and Earth and the Olympians were post creation.

Who did the Mesopotamians worship, Inanna/Ishtar or Lahamu? The latter was pre-'creation', Inanna was an 'Olympian'. Same with Mars, I mean Ares, or the Mesopotamian Nergal. People didn't worship Lahmu, Kishar, Anshar, Nudimmud (Anu is a notable exception), Kaka, these older gods were acknowledged but superceded by a new order - 12 in both cases.

Because that's how archeologists make valid arguments about the belief systems of cultures they study: by gathering all possible evidence, rather than picking up one picture that has 9 stags on it and saying "hey, those must be the nine planets; how did ancient people know there were nine planets? must be space aliens told them!"

That's why.

There's so little that survives, that even when archeologists study everything that's available to them, they often worry that their interpretations might be off base, simply by virtue of those surviving ruins being a non-representative sample. Responsible archeologists, I mean.

Do you believe an archaeologist would look at the Fremont panel and conclude it was just a hunting scene? I think they'd see the horned deity and 'erect' archer and see a creation story akin to others we see around the world - the slaying and dismemberment of a sometimes malevolent deity to create Heaven and Earth. The death of the horned deity and the conception of life.

This story can take a number of forms, common in North America was the belief in a primordial water world, sometimes in darkness. "God" arrived and produced land from under the waters. Usually some animal was sent below the water to retrieve mud and god spread it out. An Asian myth says the creator threw large rocks into the ocean to form the land. Most (if not all) speak of a primordial world before Heaven and Earth were formed from it.

Researchers recently came up with the idea Earth is a 2nd generation planet, one that had a former incarnation. Hey, damn near every creation myth I've seen agrees. Where did our water come from? The asteroid belt. But instead of concluding the Earth formed there, researchers import the water with a bombardment of water laden asteroids (and/or comets).

But they ran into a problem, our water predates the bombardment. The planet Earth formed surrounded by water, the upper mantle is full of it. The question becomes: how did that happen so close to the Sun? The early solar wind would have blown water vapor out of the inner solar system. The asteroid belt is where it would slow and condense, researchers have actually discovered the inner 'half' of the belt is dry and the outer half is wet. It literally sits on the solar system's frost line. The Norse myth of Ymir says this proto-world formed where ice meets blowing heat.

I'm starting to see why you're attracted to conspiracy theories.

What conspiracy theories (and you can start with why this qualifies)?

 

[Kyriakos]

@Berzerker , the titans are children of Gaia and Ouranos (the sky). Oceanos (ocean) is one of the titans. Oceanos is also (in a way) the progenitor of Aphrodite, given she was born from a part of him (rising out of the -sea- foam, which is what her name means in the first place; a good example of the so called "nomina-numina" theory about the names of gods, ie that those seem to often have been originally epithets).

 

[Berzerker]

Okay, if - IF - space aliens told them about all the stuff that humans can't see with the naked eye... why would space aliens need a telescope to see it? They'd have noticed it with their instruments or by looking outside the ship (assuming the ship has windows, which is not really a practical thing to include in a spaceship).

The Dutch were already using lenses for various purposes before Galileo thought of using them to look up at the Moon and planets. When he got excited by what he saw, he invited others to come and take a look... and they couldn't care less about the sky. They did like spying on the neighbors or looking out to sea to be the first to see when the merchant ships were coming in.

My original objection still stands.

Neil deGrasse Tyson says we have 8 planets. It's all in the semantics of the definitions, not in the planets themselves (of whatever size), not to mention that there are scientists who decided that 8 was a good enough number because they condescendingly figure that it would be too hard to expect the public to remember the names if they also included the dwarf planets and Kuiper Belt Objects as planets.

Funny, I don't have a problem remembering them. If "hard to remember" is a valid scientific pretext for altering the status of certain natural objects, they'd better alter the status of most of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, since I certainly can't remember all of them.

I have an image of it in my mind's eye that I saw on an astronomy website and a diagram in another online article. That's not the same as you suggesting I made the whole thing up.

I didn't say you made up the Oort Cloud, just that it doesn't exist. I do believe it is an invention (by Oort) to explain long term comets but even he believed comets originated near Jupiter. Researchers can compare the water vapor of comets to get an idea where they originated but long term comets spend so much time off in the distance gathering water vapor/ice their surface will shed it upon return giving us mixed signals. I think a long term comet on its dying orbit would best reveal its origin by analyzing its water.

It doesn't matter how many planets Tyson says are planets, the people writing these texts didn't ask him. To them these were actual worlds, not tiny lights moving about the sky. I'm assuming the telescope preceded space flight for these ancient aliens.

You mention Kuiper Belt Objects, I'm convinced they are the product of the same event that produced the asteroid belt and comets. I wonder how many other KBO's line up with Saturn's equatorial plane. If Marduk was able to tear Pluto free from Saturn I'd bet there's more debris lining up with both planets.

What turned Uranus on its side and provided Neptune with a large moon in a retrograde orbit? Something big happened in our solar system a long time ago and now its tilted, the planets have been pulled off the Sun's equatorial plane. Maybe we'll get another clue when we can measure the orbital inclinations of planets around other stars. Maybe tilted solar systems are common.

No it's not. Dem's the rules. (I didn't make the rules) You're trying to assign meaning to what you see depicted in rock art. The only check against an individual interpreter assigning whatever meaning he or she wants to one particular image is to make sure that proposed meaning squares with all available images (and again, even then archaeologists make their claims most tentatively for the reason I mentioned). You badly need that check because the meanings you're trying to assign to these rock paintings are unlikely in the extreme. Again, of all the things space aliens might teach primitive human cultures, why on earth would they bother teaching them how many planets are in the solar system, a piece of information that could be of zero use to them?

Hehe, of course its your rule. I'm not an archaeologist but try telling one they need to interpret hundreds of images before they can interpret the one I posted. Didn't you guys offer an interpretation too? Why would this need to square with all available images? How would it square? I figure representations like 9 Mile Canyon are rare, the local culture wouldn't be squaring it with other images much less ones you find on the internet. I'd love to hear what archaeologists think about it. I bet they'll look at the horned deity and horny archer and think its about more than just a hunting scene.

As to why aliens would teach us, because they made us. We are the Adam. And this is the story of how our solar system came to be, how life started - a collision between a water world and 1 or more other objects. Hasn't science already confirmed this? Life appeared after massive collisions involving a water covered world about 4 bya.

I think that catches me up, I still have half the world to explore though.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

babylon was an inside job, the cult of tiamat did it and tried to put the blame on marduk I swear

"Handbag of the gods"?



I'm no haute couture expert, but... seriously, wtf?

it was actually a barbell, and the god's were trying to work out and get ripped. this is also the reason why all the gods that came after were extremely muscular, especially the greek ones.

The problem is the pile of subjective idealistic nonsense, aka religion. The fact that some people interpret old testament, or what have you, literally makes them a consequence of that problem.

kind of unfair to throw thousands of legitimate faiths, religions, (natural) philosophies and animisms in one pot with the big 3 abrahamic stinkers. many of the former ones were predecessors to organized philosophy, aka early science. and even though I hate the abrahamic religions with a passion, lots of medieval islamic and christian scholars contributed massively to science, not despite, but because of their faith.

Something that fascinates me about humanity is how we have been around for, what, 300k, 400k years? Yet for almost all of it, we really didn't achieve much.

this is really just flat out wrong and an awful teleological reading of human culture. early humans achieved an incredible amount considering their short lifespans and constant threats from outside.

they knew biochemical processes (they certainly would not call it that) enough to ferment foods and make them non-perishable for literal months. archeological evidence now shows that apparently even neanderthals, not just homo sapiens, used fermentation, dessication and other techniques to make foods non-perishable.

they made art, beautiful art considering what little they had, that lasted for literal hundreds of thousands of years. they had, at least evolutionary biologists/psychologists think that, complex group dynamics, strong social cohesion and security, they had a good amount of leisure hours, possibly even more than us today.

they posessed intricate knowledge of the medicinal, recreational and nutritional properties of plants (and funghi, organ meat, etc.). they consciously or subconsciously, we don't surely know, selectively bred fruit, vegetables and grains over hundreds thousands of years, by pooping out seeds in their backyard. this is how, for example, almonds became non-poisonous.

what you fail to realize is that "civilization" as you imagine it was only possible because of the unthinkably large amount of work that they did. agriculture, and by that civilization, cities, states, were only possible through this legwork.

have you ever seen what corn looked like 500,000 years ago? because if you did, you wouldn't be here saying this garbaggio

 

[Angst]

If I repeatedly find 9 "1's" in cosmologies around the world I'm gonna wonder why. Maybe the 9 months of pregnancy. No, MesoAmericans had 20 day months and the 9 'worlds' are celestial in nature, even in Dante's Inferno. Why dont we see religious cosmologies based on what we can see with the naked eye? Sun, Moon, and 5 (maybe 6) wandering lights. I can see lesser religions based on Venus or the Milky Way, maybe even some on Orion and the stars, comets, and shooting stars. But 9 worlds? Not just lights in the sky, but actual worlds. Why did these people think these were actual worlds up there? Well, the Moon is a big clue.

Like I said, the world should be filled with Sun worshipers with the Moon 2nd in popularity. Venus comes in 3rd followed by the even smaller wandering lights. But none of these are our creator. I think thats bizarre. Course thats just the sky, Earth worshipers will be competing with the Sun worshipers. But no, the creator is something else, an ellipse, an erect archer, Marduk armed with arrows, Odin and whatever he used to kill Ymir.

you completely missed my point about the nature of numbers and i have no idea about what kind of crackpot stuff you've read that's described sun worship not to be.

you're also reproducing stories that are drawing you in but have seemingly no conception of why. you know why mythology centers around humanlike creatures? it's easier to relate to an archer than a glowing orb. it's the same reason you force this stuff. you want agency.

i also have no idea what to say to the idea that you think it's strange that humans make humanlike gods. it's like you've never actually read anthropology or modern psychology for that matter. the reason kids recognize the structure of faces (blank paper, three black circles) so early is not because of alien humanlike forms. it's because of humans.

i'm really impressed that some of the other posters are spending so much effort trying to explain you the basics of ancient cosmology. i'm just baffled at you not understanding why stories work.

i spend most of my time inside due to covid, and i'm a writer. due to isolation, i spend more time on my toilet than looking at other people. the sun is prominent too, so according to the logic of prominence. toilet's an important part of my life at this point. i could you know write stories about intricate dramas of people. or i could write a story about a toilet

"there's a toilet.
it's still there.
it's still there.
now there's poop in it.
now there's not.
it's still there.
it's still there."

ancient humans still paid attention to the sun, it was just usually attributed to agency due to attachment of humanlike figures to it, since otherwise the stories would be "oh yea the glowing orb showed up in the sky again. it does that once a day. it's pretty near night tho"

that has nothing on odysseus

-

like sorry it's all over the place but it's hard to reply to a pile of picked straws on fire spread across multiple continents

point is: sun worship was there, and humans are more interesting than a passive big ball of light when telling a dramatic story

 

[Kyriakos]

it was actually a barbell, and the god's were trying to work out and get ripped. this is also the reason why all the gods that came after were extremely muscular, especially the greek ones.

Depends on what "ripped" connotes. If you just mean lean/muscles showing... kind of? But only the gods who symbolize power are muscular to a threatening degree (Zeus and Poseidon). They are ripped and have strong beards

The rest are usually young, beautiful and (often) effeminate looking. Apollo would be the best example, given he is not only the god of (male) beauty, but also logic.
Hermes is another example.

You can see something similar also in the Odyssey. While Odysseus gets all the women, it is his son, Telemachos, who is said to look like a god (after a bath/oil application).

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I didn't say you made up the Oort Cloud, just that it doesn't exist. I do believe it is an invention (by Oort) to explain long term comets but even he believed comets originated near Jupiter. Researchers can compare the water vapor of comets to get an idea where they originated but long term comets spend so much time off in the distance gathering water vapor/ice their surface will shed it upon return giving us mixed signals. I think a long term comet on its dying orbit would best reveal its origin by analyzing its water.

Good luck trying to analyze the water when a long-term comet is in its "dying orbit." Some of them won't be back for at least 20,000 years. Not sure about you, but I don't plan to stick around that long.

It doesn't matter how many planets Tyson says are planets, the people writing these texts didn't ask him. To them these were actual worlds, not tiny lights moving about the sky. I'm assuming the telescope preceded space flight for these ancient aliens.

Oh, please, will you just stop with this nonsense that people knew about planets they could neither see, nor had the instruments and calculations to be able to infer their existence. Chariots of the Gods was pseudoscientific crap that was made up to sell books.

Show us ironclad proof of these ancient aliens. Any artifact of obvious extraterrestrial origin would suffice. Rock drawings of a bunch of herd animals isn't proof.

You mention Kuiper Belt Objects, I'm convinced they are the product of the same event that produced the asteroid belt and comets. I wonder how many other KBO's line up with Saturn's equatorial plane. If Marduk was able to tear Pluto free from Saturn I'd bet there's more debris lining up with both planets.

Now that we've actually sent a probe to Pluto, where's all the excitement over this supposed "tearing away" from Saturn? That's something, that if it were true, I'd expect the planetary scientists to be all over, publicizing it with great fanfare.

But... *crickets.* Not one syllable. It looks like the only two people who believe this are you and Sitchin.

What turned Uranus on its side and provided Neptune with a large moon in a retrograde orbit? Something big happened in our solar system a long time ago and now its tilted, the planets have been pulled off the Sun's equatorial plane. Maybe we'll get another clue when we can measure the orbital inclinations of planets around other stars. Maybe tilted solar systems are common.

And if they were, so what?

As to why aliens would teach us, because they made us. We are the Adam. And this is the story of how our solar system came to be, how life started - a collision between a water world and 1 or more other objects. Hasn't science already confirmed this? Life appeared after massive collisions involving a water covered world about 4 bya.

Billions of years ago, a previous generations of stars went supernova, creating a nebula similar to many nebulae that contain gas and dust and remnants of other stars that blew up. Over time some of this dust and gases coalesce (thanks, gravity) into new solar systems. Given enough time, you get a solar system like ours. Granted, it's not a peaceful time. Bits and pieces of it are crashing into each other. It takes time to settle down.

But that's what happened. Our solar system is much quieter now than it was a few billion years ago, and so life has had time to evolve here.

No space aliens were required, and there's no evidence that any ever came here. That's not to say evidence might not be found some day. But so far, zip.

"Adam" is a character in a story, and I wouldn't give great chances for any human species starting off with a grand total of 2 specimens and avoiding genetic defects that would not benefit the species' chance of long-term survival.

Depends on what "ripped" connotes. If you just mean lean/muscles showing... kind of? But only the gods who symbolize power are muscular to a threatening degree (Zeus and Poseidon). They are ripped and have strong beards

The rest are usually young, beautiful and (often) effeminate looking. Apollo would be the best example, given he is not only the god of (male) beauty, but also logic.
Hermes is another example.

You can see something similar also in the Odyssey. While Odysseus gets all the women, it is his son, Telemachos, who is said to look like a god (after a bath/oil application).

One of the reasons I am able to overlook the dismal "the audience will never know the difference" attitude toward butchering known history on Xena: Warrior Princess:

Ares, God of War... could sometimes be such a jackass, sometimes cruel, savage... and sometimes he'd make the other characters really think twice about putting themselves on an unearned pedestal.

(and he's a hoot to write in fanfic stories. I once did a crossover between Xena: Warrior Princess and Sliders)

 

[Berzerker]

they made art, beautiful art considering what little they had, that lasted for literal hundreds of thousands of years.

I think the oldest art is in the range of 40-50k... Kinda strange it took us ~100-200k to start painting on rock walls.

you completely missed my point about the nature of numbers and i have no idea about what kind of crackpot stuff you've read that's described sun worship not to be.

whats that about sun worship not to be?

you're also reproducing stories that are drawing you in but have seemingly no conception of why. you know why mythology centers around humanlike creatures? it's easier to relate to an archer than a glowing orb. it's the same reason you force this stuff. you want agency.

Does that mean the depiction of a human like creature might represent a celestial body?

i also have no idea what to say to the idea that you think it's strange that humans make humanlike gods. it's like you've never actually read anthropology or modern psychology for that matter. the reason kids recognize the structure of faces (blank paper, three black circles) so early is not because of alien humanlike forms. it's because of humans.

Where did I express surprise at humans making human like gods?

i'm really impressed that some of the other posters are spending so much effort trying to explain you the basics of ancient cosmology. i'm just baffled at you not understanding why stories work.

what basics of cosmology did I miss?

point is: sun worship was there, and humans are more interesting than a passive big ball of light when telling a dramatic story

did the sun worshipers also worship something else they identified as their creator?

Good luck trying to analyze the water when a long-term comet is in its "dying orbit." Some of them won't be back for at least 20,000 years. Not sure about you, but I don't plan to stick around that long.

Difficult or not, studying the origin of a comet means obtaining data about its original water and not the stuff it has gathered from deep space. Our best chance of that is when the comet breaks up on approaching the Sun.

Oh, please, will you just stop with this nonsense that people knew about planets they could neither see, nor had the instruments and calculations to be able to infer their existence. Chariots of the Gods was pseudoscientific crap that was made up to sell books.

I dont think Chariots of the Gods dealt with the planets. He was more interested in artifacts suggesting flight, not cosmological beliefs. The Enuma Elish speaks for itself, choose whatever translation you want and read it as a story about the solar system and the chaotic orbits of planets 4+ billion years ago before massive collisions at the asteroid belt between a water world and a few planetismals led to the Earth, continents and life. The Heaven - the firmament - marks where it happened. Rakia, the hammered bracelet. The asteroid belt... where our water formed, where our water logged mantle formed.

Show us ironclad proof of these ancient aliens. Any artifact of obvious extraterrestrial origin would suffice. Rock drawings of a bunch of herd animals isn't proof.

I provided the proof, the Enuma Elish not only describes primordial worlds but says Marduk was clothed with the halo of the 10 Gods along with a cylinder seal depicting 12 members of our solar system. The knowledge is extraterrestrial.

Now that we've actually sent a probe to Pluto, where's all the excitement over this supposed "tearing away" from Saturn? That's something, that if it were true, I'd expect the planetary scientists to be all over, publicizing it with great fanfare.

But... *crickets.* Not one syllable. It looks like the only two people who believe this are you and Sitchin.

Give 'em time, it took them decades to figure out our water originated further from the Sun. Sitchin said that 50 years ago.

And if they were, so what?

Then our tilted solar system isn't unusual.

Billions of years ago, a previous generations of stars went supernova, creating a nebula similar to many nebulae that contain gas and dust and remnants of other stars that blew up. Over time some of this dust and gases coalesce (thanks, gravity) into new solar systems. Given enough time, you get a solar system like ours. Granted, it's not a peaceful time. Bits and pieces of it are crashing into each other. It takes time to settle down.

But that's what happened. Our solar system is much quieter now than it was a few billion years ago, and so life has had time to evolve here.

No space aliens were required, and there's no evidence that any ever came here. That's not to say evidence might not be found some day. But so far, zip.

"Adam" is a character in a story, and I wouldn't give great chances for any human species starting off with a grand total of 2 specimens and avoiding genetic defects that would not benefit the species' chance of long-term survival.

I didn't say space aliens created the solar system, they just figured out what happened and told us. Man - male and female - was/were made on the 6th day and God told them to multiply. Then God took the man he made eastward to his Garden to work. But the Adam was alone so God made Eve. What happened to all the other people God made on the 6th day? He made them male and female and told them to 'replenish' the world. Why would God need to make Eve when he already made male and female on the 6th day and told them to multiply? Where on Earth did Cain find a wife if Adam and Eve were the grand total of 2 specimens responsible for humanity?

How does Genesis describe Adam and Eve before they obtained the knowledge of good and evil? They knew no shame, they were naked, they were 'primitive'. They represent the transition of mankind from an earlier people. The big clue is the curse on Eve. God said she will suffer increased pain during child birth. Compared to whom? Compared to the hominds in existence in Eve's time. Researchers believe that transition was about 150-200k or somewhere in that ballpark. Knowledge of that evolutionary biological event appears in the story of Genesis.

https://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html

These primeval people aren't parallel to the biblical Adam and Eve. They weren't the first modern humans on the planet, but instead just the two out of thousands of people alive at the time with unbroken male or female lineages that continue on today.

That doesn't disagree with Genesis... They may have lived at the same time:

By assuming a mutation rate anchored to archaeological events (such as the migration of people across the Bering Strait), the team concluded that all males in their global sample shared a single male ancestor in Africa roughly 125,000 to 156,000 years ago.

In addition, mitochondrial DNA from the men, as well as similar samples from 24 women, revealed that all women on the planet trace back to a mitochondrial Eve, who lived in Africa between 99,000 and 148,000 years ago — almost the same time period during which the Y-chromosome Adam lived.

Thats from a study published in 2013 so might be outdated, but here's another link

https://www.nature.com/news/genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not-live-too-far-apart-in-time-1.13478

Maybe the bible tells us the story of Adam and Eve because the sky people who made us knew our parents and told us about them.

 

[Berzerker]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/remains-impact-created-moon-may-lie-deep-within-earth

If Theia’s remnants do lie deep in Earth’s mantle, they may not be alone. Seismologists are increasingly seeing small, ultradense pockets of material in the deep mantle, only a few hundred kilometers across, often near the edges of the LLSVPs. Maybe they are the sunken remnants of iron-rich cores from other miniature planets that hit early Earth, Jenkins says. Theia, in fact, might be just one grave in a planetary cemetery.

Earth gets hit, impactor's iron core sinks into the mantle creating a dense spot.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I think the oldest art is in the range of 40-50k... Kinda strange it took us ~100-200k to start painting on rock walls.

This is factually wrong, as I said art was practiced long before modern man even existed. The Venus of Berekhet Ram from the Golan heights was probably made my Homo Erectus and is at the very least a quarter million years old, possibly older.

Also it is highly likely that painting was done much earlier, but on organic materials. The reason why "only" cave paintings remain is because they're the only ones that preserve well. Millions of piece of early art have been lost to the maelstrom of time.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think the oldest art is in the range of 40-50k... Kinda strange it took us ~100-200k to start painting on rock walls.

You'd think these advanced space aliens would have given us ridulian crystals to preserve our every creative whim. How thoughtless of them.

Does that mean the depiction of a human like creature might represent a celestial body?

I see a glowing orb outside my window most nights. However, I have never mistaken it for any human like creature.

Where did I express surprise at humans making human like gods?

Where you insist that herd animals represent gods instead of herd animals.

Difficult or not, studying the origin of a comet means obtaining data about its original water and not the stuff it has gathered from deep space. Our best chance of that is when the comet breaks up on approaching the Sun.

Well, I guess you had better leave a note for them to remember to do that when it's your time to leave... which I suspect will not be anything close to 20,000 years for some of those comets. And that's assuming their next approach will be their last. It could take a million years or more.

But in the meantime they could actually be working on sending probes out to the Oort to meet up with some of them - really cut the time down, since who knows what humans will be up to in another 20,000 years?

I dont think Chariots of the Gods dealt with the planets. He was more interested in artifacts suggesting flight, not cosmological beliefs. The Enuma Elish speaks for itself, choose whatever translation you want and read it as a story about the solar system and the chaotic orbits of planets 4+ billion years ago before massive collisions at the asteroid belt between a water world and a few planetismals led to the Earth, continents and life. The Heaven - the firmament - marks where it happened. Rakia, the hammered bracelet. The asteroid belt... where our water formed, where our water logged mantle formed.

My mistake. I intended to mention Velikovsky - every bit a peddler of pseudoscience.

I provided the proof, the Enuma Elish not only describes primordial worlds but says Marduk was clothed with the halo of the 10 Gods along with a cylinder seal depicting 12 members of our solar system. The knowledge is extraterrestrial.

Why wasn't any of this in my university-level astronomy texts?

Then our tilted solar system isn't unusual.

The solar system is traveling around the Milky Way Galaxy, with many others. We're not all going to be tilted the same way.

I didn't say space aliens created the solar system, they just figured out what happened and told us. Man - male and female - was/were made on the 6th day and God told them to multiply. Then God took the man he made eastward to his Garden to work. But the Adam was alone so God made Eve. What happened to all the other people God made on the 6th day? He made them male and female and told them to 'replenish' the world. Why would God need to make Eve when he already made male and female on the 6th day and told them to multiply? Where on Earth did Cain find a wife if Adam and Eve were the grand total of 2 specimens responsible for humanity?

You do realize you're preaching to an atheist who doesn't take one syllable of Genesis seriously, right? Other than later chapters where some of the soap-operatic elements have been made into TV series and plays, that while fun to watch and work in, are still depicting stuff that's never been proved to have happened.

How does Genesis describe Adam and Eve before they obtained the knowledge of good and evil? They knew no shame, they were naked, they were 'primitive'. They represent the transition of mankind from an earlier people. The big clue is the curse on Eve. God said she will suffer increased pain during child birth. Compared to whom? Compared to the hominds in existence in Eve's time. Researchers believe that transition was about 150-200k or somewhere in that ballpark. Knowledge of that evolutionary biological event appears in the story of Genesis.

https://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html

Right now the school curriculum for k-6 (kindergarten through grade 6) is part of a huge controversy in my province. The draft version was released and the teachers are not happy.

I haven't checked the document myself lately, but have read enough to not expect to see anything there about dinosaurs, paleontology, or anything else that contradicts the 'Earth-was-created-6000-years-ago' nonsense. That's how this political party rolls - insert their own religion every place they can, even though this curriculum is to also be mandatory in public schools.

I predict a massive lawsuit, and Charter challenge, as this violates a pretty fundamental Charter right.

Your musings about genesis actually being a story about the evolution of humanoids would go over like a lead balloon here but for a completely different reason.

Maybe the bible tells us the story of Adam and Eve because the sky people who made us knew our parents and told us about them.

Humans evolved on Earth, just like every other mammal. Space aliens were not required.

As for me... my parents made me. The weirdest thing my dad ever claimed to have seen was Ogopogo (freshwater lake monster in Okanagan Lake). No, I don't think Ogopogo - if he exists - is a space alien.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I provided the proof, the Enuma Elish not only describes primordial worlds but says Marduk was clothed with the halo of the 10 Gods along with a cylinder seal depicting 12 members of our solar system. The knowledge is extraterrestrial.

@Berzerker (and Sitchin) have a story to push and they seek out data that is supporting and ignores all others data. The Cylinder seal 243 data is hilariously cherry picked. There are over 2000 cylinder seals in museums and likely many more thousands never discovered or lost to time. Many of those have astronomical symbols on them. The symbols though do not fit Berzerker’s story line so they are ignored. Here is a link to images of them. Many are quite beautiful.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sumerian+cyylinder+seals&t=vivaldi&iax=images&ia=images

With Cylinder seal 243 Berzerker maintains it shows the solar system: the sun, our moon and 10 planets. The extra planet is Nirbu between Mars and Jupiter. You can search for "VA243" for an image or go here to see the takedown. https://sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf

Sitchin wrote:
" In the ruins of Sumerian cities excavated by archaeologists...There are texts specifically dealing with the Solar System. There are texts among the unearthed tablets that list the planets orbiting the Sun in their correct order; one text even gives the distances between the planets. And there are illustrations on cylinder seals depicting the Solar System, as the one shown in Plate B that is at least 4,500 years old and that is now kept in the Near Eastern Section of the State Museum in East Berlin, catalogued under number VA/243. If we sketch the illustration appearing in the upper left-hand corner of the Sumerian depiction we see a complete Solar System in which the Sun (not Earth!) is in the center, orbited by all the planets we know of today...The answer lies in the second difference between the Sumerian depiction of the Solar System (fig. 6a) and our present knowledge of it (fig. b). It is the inclusion of a large planet in the empty space between Mars and Jupiter. We are not aware of any such planet; but the Sumerian cosmological, astronomical, and historical texts insist that indeed exist one more planet in our Solar System- its twelfth member: they included The Host of Heaven 19 the Sun, the Moon (which they counted as a celestial body in its own right for reasons stated in the texts), and ten, not nine, planets.”

Of course Sitchin ignores that the seal features a plow more prominently and none of the text says anything about planets. In addition the “sun” symbol at the center of the “solar system” is not the Sumerian symbol for the sun. It lacks the wavy lines or wings used by Sumerians to designate the Sun. The symbol in the seal, a “star” shape, was used to represent a star, a planet or a god. Never the sun. Oh well. Of course, there are no known Sumerian texts that talk about more than 5 planets. Sitchin is the only source for this lie and he just made it up. From the MUL-APIN astronomy tablet:


1. Sihtu: dUdu.idim.gu.4.ud, MulNa.bu.u2 = Mercury

2. Sihtu: dUdu.idim.gu4.ud, Gu4.ud, MulNa.bu.u2, Dumu.Lugal = Mars

3. dDil.bat: MulDil.bat, dU.Dar, dIs.htar = Venus

4. Sag.me.gar: Mul dMarduk. Mul Lugal, Mul Ud.al.tar Mul Neberu = Jupiter

5. Kajam anu: dNin.urta, MulUdu.idim.sag.us, MulSag.us = Saturn

Sitchin just found one cylinder seal among the thousands that met his story needs and called it proof. I’ve added another cylinder seal below. I guess it "proves" that the Sumerians only knew of five planets?

The second piece of fake evidence is from the Enuma Elish. This creation story is over 1000 lines and has seven sections. The current version has been pieced together from multiple different tablet finds. Its interpretation has been influenced by earlier tablets that tell a different story and showing how the story changed over time. Keep in mind that Sumerian, Babylonian, and Assyrian texts are all involved and that the time frame for those civs span thousands of years. Scholars date the original Enuma Elish poem to about 2000 BCE at the latest even if the found copies are much later. One thing you notice about the EE is that much of it is still missing. There are large gaps.

Berzerker says that “Marduk was clothed in the halos of 10 gods” implying that those are the ten planets they knew about. I looked through the EE and could not find any such a passage. The closest I found was line 13 from Tablet 7. Here are three different samples of that text. The line is part of a list "singing 50 praises" of Marduk. It is unrelated to anything else about the Marduk/Tiamat battle. If I’ve missed it, please point me to the tablet and line you are referring to. You will notice that there is no mention of the number 10. So if I just didn’t see your quote, let me know. Just so you know, I did a Marduk search on all 1000 lines looking for it. There is also no mention of planets or worlds in the entire poem.

Spoiler :

1 (10)Asarre, the giver of arable land who established plough-land,
2 The creator of barley and flax, who made plant life grow.
3 (11)Asaralim, who is revered in the counsel chamber, whose counsel excels,
4 The gods heed it and grasp fear of him.
5 (12)Asaralimnunna, the noble, the light of the father, his begetter,
6 Who directs the decrees of Anu, Enlil, and Ea, that is Ninšiku.
7 He is their provisioner, who assigns their incomes,
8 Whose turban multiplies abundance for the land.
9 (13) Tutu is he, who accomplishes their renovation,
10 Let him purify their sanctuaries that they may repose.
11 Let him fashion an incantation that the gods may rest,
12 Though they rise up in fury, let them withdraw.
13 He is indeed exalted in the assembly of the gods, his [fathers],
14 No one among the gods can [equal] him.
15 (14) Tutu-Ziukkinna, the life of [his] host,
16 Who established, the pure heavens for the gods,
17 Who took charge of their courses, who appointed [their stations],
16 May he not be forgotten among mortals, but [let them remember] his deeds.
19 (15) Tutu-Ziku they called him thirdly, the establisher of purification,
20 The god of the pleasant breeze, lord of success and obedience,

O Asari, [Marduk] "Bestower of planting," "Founder of sowing"
"Creator of grain and plants," "who caused the green herb to spring up!"
O Asaru-alim, [Mardk] "who is revered in the house of counsel," "who aboundeth in counsel,"
The gods paid homage, fear took hold upon them!
O Asaru-alim-nuna, [Marduk] "the mighty one," "the Light of the father who begat him,"
"Who directeth the decrees of Anu Bel, and Ea!"
He was their patron, be ordained their...;
He, whose provision is abundance, goeth forth...
Tutu [Marduk] is "He who created them anew";
Should their wants be pure, then are they satisfied;
Should he make an incantation, then are the gods appeased;
Should they attack him in anger, he withstandeth their onslaught!
Let him therefore be exalted, and in the assembly of the gods let him... ;
None among the gods can rival him!
15 Tutu [Marduk] is Zi-ukkina, "the Life of the host of the gods,"
Who established for the gods the bright heavens.
He set them on their way, and ordained their path;
Never shall his ... deeds be forgotten among men.
Tutu as Zi-azag thirdly they named, "the Bringer of Purification,"
"The God of the Favoring Breeze," "the Lord of Hearing and Mercy,"

1. O Asari, "Bestower of planting," "[Founder of sowing],"
2. "Creator of grain and plants," "who caused [the green herb to spring up]!"
3. O Asaru-alim, "who is revered in the house of counsel," "[who aboundeth in counsel],"
4. The gods paid homage, fear [took hold upon them]!
5. O Asaru-alim-nuna, "the mighty one," "the Light of [the father who begat him],"
6. Who directeth the decrees of Anu, Bel, [and Ea]!"
7. He was their patron, he ordained [their . . . . ];
8. He, whose provision is abundance, goeth forth [...]!
9. Tutu [is] 1 "He who created them anew;"
10. Should their wants be pure, then are they [satisfied];
11. Should he make an incantation, then are the gods [appeased];
12 . Should they attack him in anger, he withstandeth [their onslaught]!
13. Let him therefore be exalted, and in the assembly of the gods [let him ...];
14. None among the gods can [rival him]!
15. Tutu is Zi-ukkina, "the Life of the host [of the gods],"
16. Who established for the gods the bright heavens.
17. He set them on their way, and ordained [their path (?)]
18. Never shall his [...] deeds be forgotten among men.
19. Tutu as Zi-azag thirdly they named, "the Bringer 1 of Purification,"
20. "The God of the Favouring Breeze," "the Lord of Hearing and Mercy,"

So as it turns out, two key foundations of Sitchin’s and Berzerker’s story are fake. What is clearly evident is that in order to enhance your story you have enhanced the facts so that they conform to what you want to believe. When you say that the EE is the story of planetary events within our solar system it is just your opinion and certainly not one that is found in the EE itself. When you say that the Sumerians had knowledge of 10 planets, you are wrong. There is no Sumerian proof for any of what you are saying. The evolution of the solar system is its own story. I will leave that to the astronomers.

You will notice in this cylinder seal we have a star shaped object and five dots. We also have two images for the Sun god with wings. Oh, and a fish too!

 

[Gorbles]

What conspiracy theories (and you can start with why this qualifies)?

Anything involving Hillary Clinton, for starters. I'm not too pressed into getting into specific examples because despite my disagreement with what you're saying in this thread, I don't want to derail it into Political Nonsense either.

Your approach to this thread can be concisely summed-up in this comic:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-01-29

You're the "Southern Methodist Episcopalian Wesleyan Church" in this example. You take a generic thing, and interpret it to mean a very specific thing along the line of "things that make sense to you". But you posit it as the thing that is true. This is common in belief systems, for sure. It's reproduced across religious and non-religious belief systems (or systems approaching belief systems regardless of their stated intent).

Which is what makes you a target for conspiracy theories, because regardless of your actual faith, or the like (for disclosure: I do not believe faith to be a bad thing inherently), you get hooked into these belief systems for <reasons> (can't guess, won't guess, they're your own reasons). But it all stems from the theory -> practise point from the comic.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Coincidence?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

The degree to which @Birdjaguar analyzes and deconstructs the faulty arguments of the "Annunaki" crowd is honestly very impressive. Solid Mesopotamian scholarship there, Bird.

 

[Berzerker]

https://phys.org/news/2020-12-world-oldest-story-astronomers-global.html

the Pleiades known as the 7 sisters have changed position over time, 100,000 years ago 7 were visible but now 6 can be seen. One has merged with a brighter star. According to the myths the Pleiades were 7 but 1 was abducted or disappeared.

 

[Berzerker]

Anything involving Hillary Clinton, for starters. I'm not too pressed into getting into specific examples because despite my disagreement with what you're saying in this thread, I don't want to derail it into Political Nonsense either.

Your approach to this thread can be concisely summed-up in this comic:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-01-29

You're the "Southern Methodist Episcopalian Wesleyan Church" in this example. You take a generic thing, and interpret it to mean a very specific thing along the line of "things that make sense to you". But you posit it as the thing that is true. This is common in belief systems, for sure. It's reproduced across religious and non-religious belief systems (or systems approaching belief systems regardless of their stated intent).

Which is what makes you a target for conspiracy theories, because regardless of your actual faith, or the like (for disclosure: I do not believe faith to be a bad thing inherently), you get hooked into these belief systems for <reasons> (can't guess, won't guess, they're your own reasons). But it all stems from the theory -> practise point from the comic.

Can you identify one conspiracy before accusing me of believing in every conspiracy involving Hillary. I dont believe QAnon or that she killed Vince Foster, so how does that square with your accusation? What conspiracies did you have in mind? And why is interpreting ancient cosmologies a conspiracy? What is this 'generic thing' you're talking about? Aren't you positing it as untrue? I cant say if its true and I cant say it isn't true. But I'd bet $$$ on it being true.

 

[Berzerker]

This is factually wrong, as I said art was practiced long before modern man even existed. The Venus of Berekhet Ram from the Golan heights was probably made my Homo Erectus and is at the very least a quarter million years old, possibly older.

Also it is highly likely that painting was done much earlier, but on organic materials. The reason why "only" cave paintings remain is because they're the only ones that preserve well. Millions of piece of early art have been lost to the maelstrom of time.

I was talking about rock art, cave paintings, etchings. I googled it, the oldest is red ocher paintings 100kya in S Africa, a site ~75kya, a Spanish cave with ~65kya followed by a few more in the mid 40s. I hadn't heard of art associated with homo erectus but I'll look into the figurine, the Spanish cave is believed to be Neanderthal.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

According to the myths the Pleiades were 7 but 1 was abducted or disappeared.

Is that what the aliens told them?

 

[Gorbles]

Can you identify one conspiracy before accusing me of believing in every conspiracy involving Hillary. I dont believe QAnon or that she killed Vince Foster, so how does that square with your accusation? What conspiracies did you have in mind? And why is interpreting ancient cosmologies a conspiracy? What is this 'generic thing' you're talking about? Aren't you positing it as untrue? I cant say if its true and I cant say it isn't true. But I'd bet $$$ on it being true.

Before my eyes roll out of their head, I'd just like to highlight something. In a discussion, "I can't say if it's true but I'd bet money on it being true" is the same as saying "I believe it is true". You have posted throughout this thread, flat-out ignoring contrary evidence and logic, to the extent that it's clear you're pushing this stuff as fact. You see it as true. You are posting as though it were true. This is conspiracy theory territory. The hallmarks of it are the same. The behaviour is the same.

Now don't get me wrong, everybody needs a hobby. I used to be heavily into the idea of aliens myself (though I quickly discarded the whole "ancient aliens" bit). I still consider it a statistical inevitability that they exist in the universe. But I'm not going around diminishing the value of past civilisations and their achievements "because aliens did it".

As for identifying conspiracies, like I said, that's a derail. I was noting the similarities between uptake of conspiracy theories and your adherence to fake / pseudoscience with this whole ancient aliens thing. I didn't say what you are posting is a conspiracy theory. If you can't even read what I'm typing correctly, why do I need to bother answering these tedious assertions? You're barely responding to anyone else coherently.