"Hidden" Pueblo Files?

[SpaceJesus]

Question from an ignoramus: How exactly did they 'ask' the Pueblo? Is there one central group, or a de-facto head of the Pueblo culture, or?

It seems very strange - respectful and the right thing to do, yes, but strange. After all, I seriously doubt that Firaxis sent a message to Vladimir Putin asking if Russia could be in the game!

Firaxis went to them looking for a voice actor, and the Pueblo Council told them they objected to the depiction of their ancestors (specifically Pope) in the game.


The real reason behind the objection is that BNW is going to be sold for a profit. The Council does not care about historical depictions, it's when a person takes anything "Pueblo" and puts it on something to be sold that the Council gets up in arms. I imagine if Firaxis were giving them a cut, they'd be fine with the inclusion.

 

[Gucumatz]

It frankly depends. We don't know nearly enough about what happened (which is why some of us wrote letters to the Pueblo Council). The Pueblo don't believe in having representations of some of their dead put out into a western market (See Tribal Mask fiasco in France last week which the US ambassador tried to intercede on behalf of the Pueblo). However from the context we know, we only know that they didn't want Pope to be shown.

It doesn't mean without their guidance a different leader, perhaps a more modern Cacique who had to deal with the US stealing and diverting water, wouldn't have been fine. Perhaps Firaxis just said "Screw it" after the council told them they didn't want Popey and then didn't bother looking for a different acceptable leader

 

[God of Kings]

Can you put in the links to the Pueblo controversy?

 

[Option]

Can you put in the links to the Pueblo controversy?

It's mentioned during the Firaxis panel at PAX 2013.

 

[AriochIV]

It's buried in one of the PAX videos.

 

[Lake n Bake]

I believe I accidentally found the left over Pueblo, and i posted it in another Thread. Check it out.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=488168

 

[EvenStranger]

Wait, sued by the Pueblo? What the hell?

I smell political correctness gone mad, but I'd like to know more.

 

[True_Candyman]

Wait, sued by the Pueblo? What the hell?

I smell political correctness gone mad, but I'd like to know more.

Political correctness gone mad would be if the company or a third party had told firaxis that it wasn't ok to include the Pueblo. It's ludicrous to campaign based on someone has supposedly been insulted or slighted.

The Pueblo telling Firaxis not to include the pueblo is a matter of cultural sensitivity and general human decency. It's unfortunate, since they would have been awesome, but i can respect it.

I believe I accidentally found the left over Pueblo, and i posted it in another Thread. Check it out.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=488168

Whatever that awful mess of a mod is, it is not the Pueblo.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Bleh. Zombie thread back from the dead.

 

[True_Candyman]

Bleh. Zombie thread back from the dead.

By someone promoting a conspiracy theory i suspect they manufactured too

 

[Louis XXIV]

I believe I accidentally found the left over Pueblo, and i posted it in another Thread. Check it out.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=488168

It's not a Pueblo Civ, it's a "Barbarian Civ." The city list isn't remotely Pueblo city list, it's a list of tribes. In fact, I suspect, it's just a list of groups not represented. Civ4 did the same thing (it had cities like Hurian). It's probably leftover code from Civ4 or, if not, it's an attempt to implement that system before they changed their minds. However, the white and black looks nice. I'm trying to think of a Civ idea that would look good with those colors.

That being said, bumping this thread might encourage Firaxis to leave the files in the game

ETA: I was dead right about it being the Civ4 barbarian city list. That list starts with the Cherokee, Anasazi, and Teoihuacan. I bet if you continue on the list, it'll go like this:

Spoiler City List :

CHEROKEE
ANASAZI
TEOIHUACAN
OLMEC
ZAPOTEC
CHINOOK
APACHE
CHEHALIS
ILLINOIS
NAVAJO
CARIB
SAXON
VANDAL
GOTH
ANGLE
MAGYAR
KHAZAK
BULGAR
ALEMANNI
BURGUNDIAN
GEPID
HUN
JUTE
PHEONICIAN
ESTRUSCAN
THRACIAN
PHRYGIAN
GAUL
MINOAN
MYCENIAN
CIMMERIAN
LIGURIAN
NUMIDIAN
SARMATIAN
SCYTHIAN
VISIGOTH
ASSYRIAN
HITTITE
HARAPPAN
MAURYAN
PARTHIAN
HARAPPAN
NUBIAN
BACTRIAN
CIRCASSIAN
CUMAN
HURRIAN
KASSITE
BANTU
KHOISAN
LIBYAN
SHANGIAN
YAYOI
ZHOU
AINU
POLYNESIAN
ARYAN
AVAR
GHUZZ
HSUNGNU
KUSHANS
YUECHI
SAKAE
UZBEK
TARTAR

ETA Again:

The Civilization code imports the Civ4 barbarian city list under "Minor Civilization." You can tell they import it because Teotihuacan is both on that list and the Aztec list.

 

[JSMCAG]

That being said, bumping this thread might encourage Firaxis to leave the files in the game

Quite the contrary, I'd say - this thread only serves to remind Firaxis that the game has files that should not be there. If they want to respect the Pueblo's Council decision to not be in the game, then they can't be in the game one way or the other.

Besides, it's not like any of the files would be interesting - the max I can see is 2D art (icons, etc...) and code for the UA, UU and UI (or whatever they wanted to use). Enough to create a new mod, but with no leader, voices or animations, so it'll be no different from any other mod out there...

 

[boghog]

The Pueblo telling Firaxis not to include the pueblo is a matter of cultural sensitivity and general human decency. It's unfortunate, since they would have been awesome, but i can respect it.

So, if there was no legal reason not to include them, just "cultural sensitivity" , they could easily leave any artwork in for modders to find and use.
They certainly wouldn't have to fear prosecution - how can anyone hold any rights to a long dead historical figure?

I still find the whole "general human decency" thing quite exaggerated. I can't imagine they asked any other civ's real world representatives whether or how they want to be portrayed in a computer game. I personally am not too happy with the association of Germany with barbarians and WWII panzers - so what? Fortunately there is no right not to have one's sensibilities offended.

 

[InsanelyApple]

from what i ve heard they approached the pueblo community (something as the "Zentralrat der Juden" in germany, i guess) in search of a voice artist. during that they found out that there was no appropriate voice artist to be found and that the depiction of their (dead) ancestors offended the pueblo people.



you honestly wanted this as russias leaderscreen?

You honestly don't want this as Russia's leaderscreen?

 

[j51]

I'm guessing the hand-axe unit was originally going to be the Pueblo UU and Firaxis gave it to the barbarians so as to not waste good art. Maybe the Kasbah was even a slightly altered UI?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Quite the contrary, I'd say - this thread only serves to remind Firaxis that the game has files that should not be there. If they want to respect the Pueblo's Council decision to not be in the game, then they can't be in the game one way or the other.

Besides, it's not like any of the files would be interesting - the max I can see is 2D art (icons, etc...) and code for the UA, UU and UI (or whatever they wanted to use). Enough to create a new mod, but with no leader, voices or animations, so it'll be no different from any other mod out there...

How easy is it to code a UA these days? Having one already included would be convenient. Likewise, having a unit, building, etc. would also help. This makes a mod easy to make, which is still a good thing even if it's still a mod. I'm not saying Firaxis should secretly include a final civ, just make it easier to make a mod.

 

[noncognosco]

So, if there was no legal reason not to include them, just "cultural sensitivity" , they could easily leave any artwork in for modders to find and use.
They certainly wouldn't have to fear prosecution - how can anyone hold any rights to a long dead historical figure?

I still find the whole "general human decency" thing quite exaggerated. I can't imagine they asked any other civ's real world representatives whether or how they want to be portrayed in a computer game. I personally am not too happy with the association of Germany with barbarians and WWII panzers - so what? Fortunately there is no right not to have one's sensibilities offended.

Not to mention, if the Pueblo's concern was with having their culture exploited for profit, a mod should solve that issue. Mods are distributed for free.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Some Putin lines:
Intro: "I am Vladimir Putin, president of the Russian federation. You have ten seconds to submit to my will."
Trade: "I am 140% sure this deal is satisfactory."
Accepts trade: "I knew you would."
Refuses: "I'll assume you're kidding and resist the urge to drop kick you in two."
Declares war: "I must break you."
War declared on Putin: "HAHAHAHAHA- oh you're serious? Yeah, prepare to die."
Defeated: "Neit" at which point he gets all of his cities back with nukes.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Not to mention, if the Pueblo's concern was with having their culture exploited for profit, a mod should solve that issue. Mods are distributed for free.

When did they say the concern was profit? As I recall the PAX video, they didn't want their holy figure in because they considered it disrespectful to make him a character in a video game, period.

 

[True_Candyman]

So, if there was no legal reason not to include them, just "cultural sensitivity" , they could easily leave any artwork in for modders to find and use.
They certainly wouldn't have to fear prosecution - how can anyone hold any rights to a long dead historical figure?

I still find the whole "general human decency" thing quite exaggerated. I can't imagine they asked any other civ's real world representatives whether or how they want to be portrayed in a computer game. I personally am not too happy with the association of Germany with barbarians and WWII panzers - so what? Fortunately there is no right not to have one's sensibilities offended.

There's no legal reason, but there is there honest word which it appears to have been what they staked removing the pueblo from the game on in the first place. The files almost 100% guaranteed won't be there.

You are displaying a very western characteristic in your legal prioritising by the way. "If it can be done why not do it" and "anything goes if it's by the law". It's not a matter of holding rights to the dead, that's not the issue firaxis ran into nor the issue raised by the pueblo. Their culture and religion determine that Pope should not be represented in the manner he would have been.

It's a matter of symbolism and respect. I imagine it is similar to how some americans feel when they see their flag burn, or how you or i might feel if new laws were passed allowing complete surveillance of all internet activity. It's not an exact comparison, but the deep rooted freedoms of our society are likely not nearly as deep rooted as the values they have regarding Pope in this instance, so you can only imagine how it must be to them.

Additionally, they didn't go out of their way to ask the Pueblo's permission. They were looking for a voice actor and during that search they were approached and respectfully asked to stop as it conflicts with their values. Germans and Germany have had plenty of opportunities to step in and ask for removal. For the Pueblos to take that step shows there is quite a significant feeling against their inclusion in this game, certainly far more so than whatever you may feel about Germany.

I hope that explains it a little more, but obviously going on so little information its difficult to properly explain it. Just bare in mind that all people and all societies are different. We can't go round dominating other people any more, that's almost a century outdated now.