How do I ICS or Sprawl?

[Fluffyburrito]

I'm new to the game and have been doing ok with Tradition Civs so far, but I'm struggling with a Liberty start.

If I use Liberty everything seems like it moves in slow motion.

I'll either expand too fast trying to nab as many luxuries as possible yet still struggle with happiness or tell my civs to stop growing and watch as my workers have nothing to work on and I fall behind in research. I don't get it.

The only Civ I've played thus far with Liberty is Rome, and I only won that because I killed off the other 3 civs near me and gained too huge of an advantage to lose with.

 

[Gamewizard]

It is hard to go super wide if you don't have a religion with happiness boosting beliefs. This is what makes pagodas so good.

Also, city-states with unique luxuries should become a priority to keep as allies. Maritime CS are stronger for a super wide strategy because each city gets a small amount of food, allowing your undeveloped cities to work more hammer tiles.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

The general consensus is that ICS is a dead strategy in BnW.

You *would* do it by expanding constantly so long as you have some happiness to spare. Always settle on a new lux. One of the downsides in BnW is a science penalty per city, and some religious beliefs / social policies that have been slightly nerfed.

You can still have a very large empire and be successful. But somewhere along the line its best to stop planting new cities. They start small and generally dont pay for themselves fast enough in the later part of the game, which is why I usually switch to conquering large cities instead, right around the industrial era.

You should also carefuly consider your/world religion(s) as that tends to pay some dividends in a wide game, but spending faith on prophets is a tough pill to swallow for me, I like engineers / scientists.

The biggest Game I have played in BnW I had 7 founded cities and won with Domination, having gobbled up the other 7 capitols, and two other cities along the way. I was still happy at the end thanks to some ideological tenets. I dont think I ever had more than 10 happines that entire game, with an average of 3. I dipped into unhappy very frequently.

There were several times I traded cities away or burned them. there is usually someone who want those garbage cities.

 

[ilikepie333]

Still, is it a valid strategy to spam out some 10-15 cities in the early game (with solid SP's and religion of course) and have them all grow at the same rate (all expos at 2 pop => all at 5 pop, etc) into very productive cities in the late game?

 

[ravenmagus]

You need to have some sort of goal with your religion in mind. Faith production is the only thing that still scales well with ICS.

 

[manu-fan]

I've found that ICS works, and it's a strategy I enjoy. So, I play only on Warlords difficulty. On that difficulty, it's still manageable. Probably on Prince too, but I find it rather frustrating, so I stick with Warlords.

 

[Gamewizard]

Still, is it a valid strategy to spam out some 10-15 cities in the early game (with solid SP's and religion of course) and have them all grow at the same rate (all expos at 2 pop => all at 5 pop, etc) into very productive cities in the late game?

It is a valid strategy, but you need to have the happiness to support it. Religion and CS are the best place to find it.

However, at immortal and especially deity, this will not work because the AI will see you over expanding without the military to defend your small settlements and you WILL get DOWed, usually by multiple AIs all at once. Emperor and below it can certainly work (especially with Maya and my favorite, Poland).

 

[Fluffyburrito]

It is a valid strategy, but you need to have the happiness to support it. Religion and CS are the best place to find it.

However, at immortal and especially deity, this will not work because the AI will see you over expanding without the military to defend your small settlements and you WILL get DOWed, usually by multiple AIs all at once. Emperor and below it can certainly work (especially with Maya and my favorite, Poland).

I just re-tried to do an ICS and picked off an Assyrian city that was almost right beside my capital before immediately declaring peace.

America and Russia then simultaneously declared war on me a few turns later and my 8th and 6th cities are suffering from what will probably be an unbreakable siege, as I'm barely ahead in tech enough to defend but not well enough ahead to fight back. All of the other civs have now DOW'd me.

 

[civjou]

I think if you go coastal you can easily bring up new cities late in the game and bring them up so fast so they break even in research.

2 marine food trade routes to a new city will bring it up more or less with 1 citizen a turn up to ~ 13/14 citizens, it's a strategy you could explore.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Trying the early cultural victory with the Sacred sites reformation belief(where you ics) I've found that Itinerant preachers will spread your religion fast, and to the point where it converts other holy cities. Another thing the AI hates ICSers so build units, coupled with the Oligarchy SP you could field a relatively large army with no maintenance cost. Happiness buildings cannot give more happiness that the population of the city they are in so you must grow your cities somewhat to combat the unhappiness generated from number of cities. Another thing only build orads to cites that have markets in as you'll cripple yourself financially otherwise.

 

[Abraxis]

Carthage, Inca, and Iroquois are all good civs for players who struggle with wide play-styles. Their low to no cost roads alleviate most of the standard challenges encountered by wide civs.

Another thing only build orads to cites that have markets in as you'll cripple yourself financially otherwise.

Not really a good rule to follow, variance is way too big to arbitrarily use markets as your mark. If the city only has 3 tiles between it and your closest connection it covers the cost of the roads upon gaining roughly 3 citizens, assuming no gold tiles worked. Just get in the habit of counting the tiles for needed roads, each road tile costs 1 gold, compare that to the number of citizens in the destination cities. You'll be getting roughly 1 gold for each person in the city from the route early game.

It's not exact, but it's a much better general simple rule to follow than waiting for a market.

 

[BenitoChavez]

I find happiness to be the limiting factor when going wide, so I prefer Egypt or the Celts because of their UBs. Also celts get easy religion. Liberty + exploration are great trees for wide when you have many coastal cities. Settling next to horses and stone, in addition to luxuries allows for stoneworks and circus. Circus Maximus is also pretty important to get.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well the best way to go wide in my opinion is by strategic land purchase.

What do that mean

Well Before I explain to all of you who are intressting to here this, I will put on some Music (an der schönen blauen donau).

First we must look at the meaning of wide and its problem because if we know them we can make our strategy as effective as possible.

Meaning of wide: To get a large amount of usefull land worked by the population of cities that aren't necessary any closer to each other then in a tall empire.

Now we can easly find its problems:

-How to get controll of a large amount of usefull land with other Civs wanting the same?

-How do we overcome the happines problem we get from having many cities?

Well the Point of strategic land purchase is to overcome both of these, but how

To use this strategy we need to have good knowledge of the land, Resources and Civ placements so scouts will be needed.

We also wan't a settler out quickly which may not sound strange but the Point is to build our second city far away from the capital, in an area that got hopefully new lux Resources and also help us to Control all the land between it and the capital.
By using land purchase ability in the new city and placing cities so that you can make an impassiable wall of purchased land or terrain like ocean and mountains, also Place cities 6 tiles apart.
By doing so the other civs will not be able to get the land between your capital and your wall of cities, you basicly have purchased this land and don't have to rush to settle it.
You should also have alot of Resources under your Control, sell the ones you don't need.
Tech to Construction early to get both Composite bowmen, you need a military then you do such strategies and colusseums which will help alot with the happines problem and should be one of the first building in every city if not the first.

By using This its pretty possible to get over 10+ peacefull settled cities and no need to rush to settle them, It may even be able to play like a tradition game with This strategy and expand much later.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

Denkt :

this will work really well, but only when it works!

I have tried this in several games with mixed results. It relies heavily on the overall geography of the area. Sometimes you need to plant 2 far-away cities on choke points, making it harder. Sometimes you will have a wall of City states, and these are a very unreliable border at best since AI will walk their settlers right through. Coastlines are similarly difficult, since a disembarked settler can float in an settle behind "the wall". And just forget about archipelago maps.

on higher difficulties, you must have a fantastical defensible peninsula (or mountain chains) for this to work, as multiple AI will try to forward settle on your unclaimed lux.

it is worth trying for, given the right geography though.

 

[Abraxis]

...Stuff...

Well then, before I respond I'll put on my own music.


Link to video.

Now, I have to say that's really dangerous advice... I often find that if you have territory which isn't technically yours, but the AI can't access without going through your borders, and you don't allow them through with an agreement, they will almost without fault declare war and stomp you into the ground just to get to it.

My last deity game with the Shoshone for example.

Spoiler :

I settled Goshute there, despite not being able to support it, for no other reason than to stop the constant, literally constant, state of war I was under with all my neighbors to claim that area I had blocked off with my other three cities. Nearly 150 turns of perpetual war I had faced for that stupid little zone without any resources in it. The second I settled there and filled out my borders, everyone besides Askia left me alone. Askia was going for conquest though, so that was a different story. He finally conquered me about 50 turns after this picture, but everyone else was finally peaceful, even asking for friendship pacts

If you really want to be all about grabbing a bunch of land, I would suggest expanding outwards from the center, slowly but surely, only taking what you're immediately going to cover with your colour if you want to avoid confrontation with the AI (Though I'll admit the map doesn't always allow for that). You may not get everything you want in the end, but it beats over-extending, or pissing off the AI which seems to actively hate you for trying a strategy of blocking off huge swaths of land at chokepoints. Though, if you're dead set on going that route I'd highly recommend Russia or Shoshone to fill out the dead zones ASAP.

But...

...To be honest, why bother with all that when you can just pick Carthage and settle the most valuable coast tiles at any range. Grabbing up only the most valuable tiles for yourself and letting everyone else have the lesser valued land surrounding each of your cities. While you maintaining cohesion between them by keeping control of the sea?

 

[SirPepsi]

The problem with going wide, in my opinion, is the seemingly concerted effort the game designers have made to prevent it from being a viable strategy. It makes sense historically - the larger your empire, the more difficult it is to administer and the more likely it will succumb to rebellion, but unfortunately, there is no age of empire-building in CiV; all the land is quickly swallowed (as map-scripts are far too small) and discovery is all done far too early for my liking. Once you advance past the ancient era, every other one moves too quickly or drags on without purpose :/

Going wide is difficult b/c access to prime land is limited. I can found 3 cities in a game before I'm left with having to settle with something awful for my fourth. Religion, SPs, CSs, etc. can help maintain happiness, but land is so scarce there's almost no point.