How do you time your wars?

[billindenver]

I seem to start out every game the same: I plan to be a conqueror, but end up being a builder. I almost always have a small early war to expand (3-4 cities captured). I WANT to have a middle ages war with knights, but I always end up skipping that and building my cities. Since cities are always building libraries, aqueducts, banks, universities, cathedrals, and Wonders, I never have a chance for my middle age war.

Then comes Industrial era, and I'm all busy building factories and hospitals, ToE and Hoover. Infantry is next, and by then, tanks are so close...

The strategy works ok, and I end up winning a fair number of my games on Monarch, but my score always stinks because I don't war enough early on.

So what do you warmonger conquerors do? Do you just skip building improvements and wonders and let your civ fall behind economically? Do you build up 1/2 your cities and have the others always building units?

 

[Bloog]

Your score steenks ? 3750 is my max ever (regent)

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Bloog
Your score steenks ? 3750 is my max ever (regent)

My max is around 2800, so quit your whinin. And that's on Monarch too!!

When I played regent I don't think I ever got higher than 2000. 3750 is pretty darned good for regent, I think.

 

[Heffron20]

I'm the exact same way Bill. I always start a game wanting to war early and wipe civs off of my continent, but I am too much of a builder at heart. I want my cities to be huge production machines by the time I make it to Industrial. I usually don't start a war unless there is a valuable resource I need or I have lots of tanks. Just wanted to let you know that you weren't alone.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Bill, try this, it's kind of a deity strategy but it works on any level. This is just a loose description and not meant to prevent a player from exercising some discretion. The reason that it works on deity is because the AI tends to spend more than half of it's early production on things other than military, so the scales of military production start to balance out.


Don't build any city improvements until you get a Forbidden Palace; except for barracks, wonders or if a city has 5 surplus food per turn you can build a granary. You can't build a FP until you have twice the cities than when you first get the message that you can build the FP. You can hand build the FP but it's nice to use a Great Leader for that. Use Great Leaders for wonders, that helps on the culture front. Research 100% Wheel and Pottery if you are going to be able to build a granary. Then drop your research to 10% or even 0%. You can have a luxury tax but try connect luxuries to keep it down in the 20% range. Cities that have unhappiness should build settlers or workers. While under despotism, build cities so that your unit support always exceeds the number of units that you have.

Have wars if you want! You should still get to the middle ages with some real power. Then take it from there, you should be able to wage war by upgrading units and build infrastructure once you have a FP.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
. . .
Have wars if you want! You should still get to the middle ages with some real power. Then take it from there, you should be able to wage war by upgrading units and build infrastructure once you have a FP.

I agree wholeheartedly. From one point of view, the purpose of war is Leader creation . I try to fight until I get at least one Leader. If early in the war, I tend to build an Army; if late in the war, I build the Forbidden Palace. Besides, you start in Despotism. If you are going to have wars of conquest, you may as well have as many wars as practical before switching to Republic or Democracy.

However, I do usually build Temples (pop-rush sometimes), even before Barracks. In some terrains, you may need to expand the borders to make use of resources, luxuries, or food and shields. On borderlands, the expanded culture boundaries reduce flipping. And importantly, the added Culture gives your Conquests more stability.

As far as timing, build up a critical mass, then invade. Shaka's Spear

Or when weak, provoke them into attacking well-defended positions to sap their strength. Shaka's Shield

 

[Siriusnight]

The only time I like to go to war is when I can take several cities at once. If your going to get the war weariness then make it worth while and attack two civs rather than one at a time. After 20 turns of peace you can see if you need to continue to consolidate or go back to war.

 

[Scyphax]

Except when playing the Aztecs (where I go to war immediately) I hold off going to war with my UU until out of despotism.
Then if out of despotism and the UU is available I go to war to trigger my GA.
Even when at war I still build. I have my 2 most productive cities concentrating on wonder production and city improvements to increase productivity. Often I pay cash to finish the improvements off so they can spend more time producing wonders.
I like to take my time over war and generally prefer to take a couple of cities and a resource and then make a profitable peace treaty.
I expand until I can build the FP then try not to get any additional cities until it is built.
Once built I generally go to war again to seize the ideal spot to move my palace to. I make peace and try not to get anymore cities until my new palace is built.
Once built it is time for war either to grab the land and cities near my new palace or to take over the world.

 

[blackhalo14]

How many cities do you build before you start building your structures?

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by blackhalo14
How many cities do you build before you start building your structures?

It depends. I often build a granary very early to pump out settlers from my main city or 2. And barracks/temples occasionally early on. However, my primary concern early in the game is grabbing land. Once that's done, it's build workers, barracks, and defensive units, then normally enough offensive units for a small early war. After that, it's city improvements until the Industrial Era.

In my current game, that was almost my exact pattern. It's not 1600AD, and I am one turn from the Hoover, with factories in almost every city, and with many cities having nothing remaining to build except units or wonders. So I started my Industrial Age war with Germany, who will be gone within 5-8 turns. I'm very strong in this game, with a 1-2 tech lead, lots of cash, and a small but adequate military. A handful of cavalry, a fair amount of infantry, a few swords and elites, and 3-4 arty. Germany is defending with a few rifles. I'll have tanks with 20 turns.

However, my score at this point is still only 1100. I'd like to break 3000, but it may be too late in the game to get the score up that much. I guess we shall see.

 

[Allemand]

I keep a small army in the early game. That guarantees a war.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
Bill, try this, it's kind of a deity strategy but it works on any level. This is just a loose description and not meant to prevent a player from exercising some discretion. The reason that it works on deity is because the AI tends to spend more than half of it's early production on things other than military, so the scales of military production start to balance out.


Don't build any city improvements until you get a Forbidden Palace; except for barracks, wonders or if a city has 5 surplus food per turn you can build a granary. You can't build a FP until you have twice the cities than when you first get the message that you can build the FP. You can hand build the FP but it's nice to use a Great Leader for that. Use Great Leaders for wonders, that helps on the culture front. Research 100% Wheel and Pottery if you are going to be able to build a granary. Then drop your research to 10% or even 0%. You can have a luxury tax but try connect luxuries to keep it down in the 20% range. Cities that have unhappiness should build settlers or workers. While under despotism, build cities so that your unit support always exceeds the number of units that you have.

Have wars if you want! You should still get to the middle ages with some real power. Then take it from there, you should be able to wage war by upgrading units and build infrastructure once you have a FP.

Thanks for the reply Cartouchebee. I wasn't ignoring. I started replying about 5 times yesterday, but found all I was doing was trying to justify my own play. I know you're a really good player, and if I wanna get that way, I need to just try your advice.
I find that in games, however, I just tend to fall back into my old habits of early war, then thorough city improvements.

Maybe I should just tell myself that after every improvement a city builds, I have to build a military unit.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Bill, I really like a builder game, the option I was giving you was just an exercise to try something else. By sticking to those rules you will get yourself into a position that will allow you to go to war, pretty much at will, and in the middle of the game you won't have to build units for more war, you can just upgrade what you have (knights, cavs, pike,riflemen). Then you just do your infrastructure building while your coasting along with your upgrading battle force.

If you try this, at what ever level you are currently playing or maybe one level lower just to take it for a test drive, it may give you the confidence to try other approaches to competing with the AI. If you just play to the end of the middle ages you will see if it works for you or not.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
Bill, I really like a builder game, the option I was giving you was just an exercise to try something else. By sticking to those rules you will get yourself into a position that will allow you to go to war, pretty much at will, and in the middle of the game you won't have to build units for more war, you can just upgrade what you have (knights, cavs, pike,riflemen). Then you just do your infrastructure building while your coasting along with your upgrading battle force.

If you try this, at what ever level you are currently playing or maybe one level lower just to take it for a test drive, it may give you the confidence to try other approaches to competing with the AI. If you just play to the end of the middle ages you will see if it works for you or not.

OK, I think I was missing the point. You're saying build like 40-50(?or more) horsemen/spearmen, and hopefully that army will carry you through til tanks as long as you use it properly (ie, don't throw your horsemen against pikes). My first war usually begins with less than 20 offensive units, and ends with me only having 4-5 left, and that obviously isn't enough to keep warring during the Middle Ages. How big would your army usually be?

Obviously, the swordsmen conquest is out here since they can't upgrade.

 

[Zcylen]

first build a great army.in my capitol sometimes I have 25 swordman before a temple.
in these cases I builb barracks and then military units, by the moment I reach 30 I send them to conquer the world.
in the ancient ages NO ONE can resist an army of 30 swordman by the time I end the war I have an empire 5 times bigger and there enough time to construct temple, libraries and other things.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Yes, try and stick with horsemen but you can use the warrior -> swordsmen for an early war (if that suits you) and then use them for military police later.

Rather than focus on the number of units...

Try going to war only when the military advisor says that you are stronger than the AI. Then as you get comfortable with that try wars with AI that are rated average compared to you.

This will give you more flexibility rather than shooting for an exact number. Check your rating against every civ and try and keep building military until you are at least rated average to the strongest AI.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
Yes, try and stick with horsemen but you can use the warrior -> swordsmen for an early war (if that suits you) and then use them for military police later.

Rather than focus on the number of units...

Try going to war only when the military advisor says that you are stronger than the AI. Then as you get comfortable with that try wars with AI that are rated average compared to you.

This will give you more flexibility rather than shooting for an exact number. Check your rating against every civ and try and keep building military until you are at least rated average to the strongest AI.

That's a lot easier on Monarch than Diety. I'll have to start keeping an eye on the advisor. I'd have to say that almost every time I happen to glance at that advisor, it says we're outnumbered.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

On Monarch, if you follow that initial plan, you will be stronger than your opponent much quicker than you think.

I pretty much attack AI even when I'm weaker but you need to work up to that.

Anyway, if you want play some shadow rounds on a game to try this out, just let me know and we can start a thread in SG or do it by PM.