How to counter Longswordsman beeline?

[Dolph]

My friend and I have been playing a few MP games on a duel north vs. south map. We are both around Monarch level in single player - he is a bit better than me, though.

The problem is that our games seems to be decided by whoever gets to Steel first, because longswordsmen are so much better than the ancient / classical age units, especially after horses were nerfed in the patch.

Last game, I won by beelining Machinery, and then teching Steel with the Great Library, which I completed just as I finished Machinery. I quickly upgraded three swordsmen to longswordsmen, and broke through his ranks and won the game. After the game, my friend told me that he was only two turns from completing the Great Library, when I got it, so it seems like he could easily have won the game instead

So the question is, next time we play, he will probably go for Steel again (he always plays the Japanese), so what can I do about it? I don't have a favorite civ - do you have any ideas which civ would be good against the Japanese one these settings?

Cheers!

 

[MadDjinn]

hit him with other units before Steel comes around.

Steal the Great Library for something cheaper, rather than waiting for Steel. (mostly to annoy him)

get ranged units (Crossbows/etc) to pound his melee units into the ground once they come near you.

or grab the Hagia Sophia + finishing Liberty to get two GSs and pop straight to Chemistry for cannons/better production. (or also grab the PT and triple bulb to Rifles) If you do the latter, you can definitely use lancers to get flanks and kill wounded units/run away. (22 combat strength does help on attack and charge works nicely)

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

My friend and I have been playing a few MP games on a duel north vs. south map. We are both around Monarch level in single player - he is a bit better than me, though.

The problem is that our games seems to be decided by whoever gets to Steel first, because longswordsmen are so much better than the ancient / classical age units, especially after horses were nerfed in the patch.

Last game, I won by beelining Machinery, and then teching Steel with the Great Library, which I completed just as I finished Machinery. I quickly upgraded three swordsmen to longswordsmen, and broke through his ranks and won the game. After the game, my friend told me that he was only two turns from completing the Great Library, when I got it, so it seems like he could easily have won the game instead

So the question is, next time we play, he will probably go for Steel again (he always plays the Japanese), so what can I do about it? I don't have a favorite civ - do you have any ideas which civ would be good against the Japanese one these settings?

Cheers!

If you can choose your civ, pick the Roman. Their legion are way cheaper and not really weaker than LongSwords.
If you have not killed him before he has Longsword, you will be able to defend with legion vs Longsword.

 

[CYZ]

You could try Mongolia and rush to keshiks. Just build chariot archers early on and get them promoted. Rush to Chivalry (stealing Great Library if you can ofcourse) and upgrade. Especially if there is open space between you and him you can destroy longswordsmen easily. Plus Khan are very good units in any war situation.

Also Rome, as said above, will work nicely. Rushing with legions + ballista before he reaches longswords should work well, and provide a good defense if you fail.

 

[Bibor]

early steel counters that come to mind:
-roman legions
-greek companion cav.
-crossbows
-babylon (great scientist steel bulb)
-china (chukonus obliterate lswords

-great wall seems like an idea, depending on terrain

 

[Tabarnak]

Ranged units and a good city placement are vital. Fortify melee units until 50% extra in forests and forested hills(place city in that sense) for better defense. It's easy to pull off 3-4 archers rapidly. The great lib is better earlier like MadDjinn said.

I fought a guy recently who picked Iroquois and made a Steel beeline. I had no iron, but 3 pikemen, 2 horses (for flanking/attacks and retreat) and 3-4 archers and they were pretty annoying enough to repulse him. When i got machinery, i was in good shape to cut off his army a bit. I finally got through with rifles later.

 

[Dolph]

Thanks! these are great suggestions.

I think I might try playing the Romans - it seems like that "safest" strategy, assuming that my friend is a slightly better player than me.

I also just noticed that the longswordsman seems to have been nerfed since we played last time - didn't it use to have 18 strength? Now that it is nerfed to 16 strength, it might not be as big a game-breaker as it was before...

 

[jbevermore]

Thanks! these are great suggestions.

I think I might try playing the Romans - it seems like that "safest" strategy, assuming that my friend is a slightly better player than me.

I also just noticed that the longswordsman seems to have been nerfed since we played last time - didn't it use to have 18 strength? Now that it is nerfed to 16 strength, it might not be as big a game-breaker as it was before...

It's not. They're still a powerhouse, but not to the extent they were before.

Strongest thing to do if you know they're going nuts for Steel is to build the great wall. Melee gets hammered by seige and archers when they can only move one tile per turn. Throw in a few horse units and you can make your entire Civ a slaugherhouse.

Edit:
As far as rome goes, you have to use it right for it to be strong. Keep building in the capital and go to war in the early game. Once you hit Steel your advantage is gone, if you haven't pressed by then you're stuck, especially if your opponent is Japan.

 

[vra379971]

If you want safe, go Korea or China.

Really, the whole thing about fighting Japan is not to bother melee, but have enough archers to keep away.

 

[fmlizard2]

I never have really tried to rush Steel before. What turn (standard speed) can you get it on with a beeline? My initial suggestion would be to counter with Chivalry and Knights (similar era, better teching path) but if one can get to Steel much faster then that might not be viable.

I could also see tight city placement along with English Longbows (garrisoned if you can) and the Oligarchy policy being a nasty box of needles to walk into.

 

[Tabarnak]

I never have really tried to rush Steel before. What turn (standard speed) can you get it on with a beeline? My initial suggestion would be to counter with Chivalry and Knights (similar era, better teching path) but if one can get to Steel much faster then that might not be viable.

For quick speed(most mp games are played at quick speed), a very fast beeline to steel is made with the Liberty finisher and it can be unlocked before turn 60 if everything goes fine. In most cases, expect them around turn 65 at best. But a chivalry beeline is possible around that time, from the same pattern(liberty), so it's a good idea to rush chivalry if you have 4 horses or more.

Since i had only 2 horses in my game, i beelined education instead and rushed rifles with 2 gs, 1 from pt and another one from my cap. Fortunately, my positionning was good enough to resist them until then. He didn't really try much because each time he made a move i had a chance to kill a longswordmen in 1 turn and take almost no casualities.

Check diplo window often to see if your opponent generates enough money to upgrade swords and check if he has iron left if he doesn't play Iroquois.

 

[MasterMishi]

out tech him to steel is an option, france would be good for this as you get the liberty GS quicker

or persia for GA movement bonus, use it to attack him (also counters Great Wall)

spam swords (iro/ rome)

dont forget ballistas if you are rome

crossbows are very strong now with good str to defend melee attack

a GG/ citadel/ choke point

 

[Robrecht]

I had the same thing going, Dolph. My friend and I usually play on duel maps. Some months ago (when longswords still had 18 strength) we had the same problem: he always played Japan and rushed me with steel.

The main tactic to work for me was to avoid melee contact by using archers/chariot archers/catapults. + sometimes in combination with Great Wall. I beat the hell out of him like that a few games That scared him enough and he now switched to more subtle tactics Anyway: Ranged + Great wall is a solid defense.

 

[tommynt]

truly wonder how stuff like Keshiks or Xbows can be a counter to "Steel beline", both come WAY later.

Best advice is proly to rather get gl earlier and get something else as steel with it just so other one dont get it.
Just tech faster at all.

OR: have BIG Cities placed clever which cant be taken with LS easily (some Catas/swords for defense) and totaly forget lower path but go straight for Edu/science

 

[Tabarnak]

truly wonder how stuff like Keshiks or Xbows can be a counter to "Steel beline", both come WAY later.

It's not that bad actually, a chivalry beeline can be done only 5-8 turns later than Steel. If you are on defense mode, the other player needs to bring them and positionning their units fast enough to don't let you make profit of that beeline(he will probably have no clue of what you are doing anyway).

For Steel you need : Metal Casting and Construction. You need to have enough money for upgrades too. Finishing Liberty around turn 60 is hard to do unless you play France(or Aztecs with lot of barbs).

For Chivalry you need : Philo, Maths, Currency and Civil Service. Get currency first and build at least one in cap for more money. The needed from Currency or Civil Service is what make that beeline a bit more longer.
Also, if you manage to build 2-3 markets, the GA from Liberty will be a lot more profitable than your opponent.

It's a war between and focused civs.

A GL start can annihilate this difference. For Xbows it's more difficult to do unless you play China. Personnally, i can get Steel around turn 60 and i did some tests with the Chivalry beeline and i can get this tech before turn 70 very often.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

I don't play multiplayer, but against the AI you can rush the opponent early using Greek Hopites or German Landsknechts.

If you go with the Romans, use your Legions to pillage his iron before he gets longswords.

 

[Bamboocha]

I guess the best way to counter longswordsmen is with musketmen?
I never really got why the longswordsman gets so much love, the musket is just one tech past it, has the same attack strength (or significantly higher if you're playing as France) and doesn't waste precious strategic resources.

So my advice (though perhaps bad advice, since I'm no expert) would be to play as France, use (cross)bowmen in your cities to keep the longsword rush at bay and then research gunpowder and use your muskets to drive the enemy longswordsmen back. France has the added advantage of getting a lot of culture, allowing you to take the aristocracy policy first, allowing you to build the great library before your friend does. Alternatively, you can go down the honour tree and beef up your military ability in record time, giving you an edge over your friend even if your army is (slightly) weaker.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I never really got why the longswordsman gets so much love, the musket is just one tech past it, has the same attack strength

In SP for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Longswords come earlier and have the same strength. They are also cheaper, which is not so relevant since you rarely need to hard build them, you just upgrade a bunch of promoted swords. If you play offensive and don't have iron by the time you get Steal, you have some planning problems. Strategics aren't hard to get. Ally CS if needed or buy.

In MP it might be a different story. Honestly, I assumed most MP games are played with Balanced Resources on. That's how I always played back in Civ4 times. But Tabarnak said he'd got stuck without iron, so I guess I was wrong.