Faith, Tech and unit upgrade has secondary requirements for them to be enabled.
How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]
- Thread starter MerchantCo
- Start date
Faith, Tech and unit upgrade has secondary requirements for them to be enabled.
You only get the option to choose faith from a ruin after you've founded a pantheon. You can make a duplicate pick from a ruin but in can only be done every fourth turn, So you can take a culture ruin on #1 and again on #5.
Tachii
Procrastinator
Oh wow. I wasn't aware of these game mechanics. Thanks!
/goes to play Shoshone now, lol.
(I also agree the 8 tiles is way too ridiculous.) Not exactly sure how to start though, I guess Liberty can actually trump Tradition here for the Shoshones.
/goes to play Shoshone now, lol.
(I also agree the 8 tiles is way too ridiculous.) Not exactly sure how to start though, I guess Liberty can actually trump Tradition here for the Shoshones.
xrahrahmanx
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2013
- Messages
- 1
About the best thing the Shoshone get after the early game is a strikeforce of no-move-cost ranged units. You can reasonably expect to get 2, but I have 3 or 4 in my current game (huge map = more huts/land), and happened to find Mt. Kilimanjaro fairly early, so they all have Altitude Training as well (+10% combat on hills, double move over hills). They are sick, usually able to move 3 squares and sometimes 4. I have almost all the CSs as allies from doing far-flung quests, and they can accomplish some really broken combat maneuvers. I am playing a very expansive style (8 cities, all over 10 pop), and they are excellent for reinforcing borders to prevent an attack or to beat back encroaching barbs trying to mess up my development. They also got me 2nd Pantheon, 1st religion, 4 or so pop, an early 20 culture, and a tech or two.
I think the best way to take advantage of these qualities is to go liberty and expand aggressively, fighting defensive wars if necessary and grabbing up enough luxes to keep expanding. At some point I would switch to horsemen or knights for defense/barb missions and try to get my bowfinders some real (war-time) xp. I think opening honor, taking lib up to either free settler or settler+worker, and then going for +50% xp before finishing lib could work well. I took patronage because I wasn't sure what my win condition was going to be and I had a lot of cities and there were a lot of maritime CSs. Obviously rationalism wins games and after that either Order or Autocracy work well.
As far as a nerf, why? Native tongue is essentially a gimmick that forces you to over-produce super-expensive scouts, as some people mentioned earlier. 2 Pathfinders is not enough, so you delay your early development in order to get specific boosts in development. Maybe. Or you get surrounded by AIs. Or water. Or barbs (if your pathfinders have to fight barbs, they're not getting huts). I would say in order to make full use of Shoshone, you need to have at least 2 bowfinders fairly early, and probably 3 is where it starts to get good. Which I think amounts to between 6 to 8 huts minimum (though I could be wrong on that). Those specific development bumps are significant in the short term (pantheon lets you better plan your later cities based on tile/improvement boosts, culture lets you get your barb slaying on quicker, more efficiently, and for more benefit, population lets you work that copper hill to pay for your CBs and build more quickly). I think the Shoshone are powerful, but in order to make the best use of their synergies, limited to a very specific kind of gameplay, best suited to war. As many have noted, it is much more difficult in BNW to keep early conflicts local (i.e. without long-term diplomatic penalties), unless you can goad the AI into attacking you first.
I feel like the AI plays the shoshone this way, which is very vexing to a human player (losing good early city spots to aggressive expansion with no recourse but a diplomatically damaging and difficult war due to BNW mechanics and +20% combat in friendly territory). This is probably the reason people are asking for a nerf. This is mostly a matter of the Shoshone being experts in taking up space and not because of bowfinders, which I doubt the AI can even use effectively. I also doubt that the AI is as good at finding huts or that they can leverage those bonuses as effectively as a human player. My suggestion is for players to expand more aggressively against the shoshone when spawning near them to make sure they get the cities and resources they need. Later in the game they have no ability to get ahead, and my guess is that the worst they can do is stunt a human player's growth enough to let another more powerful AI get ahead.
I think the best way to take advantage of these qualities is to go liberty and expand aggressively, fighting defensive wars if necessary and grabbing up enough luxes to keep expanding. At some point I would switch to horsemen or knights for defense/barb missions and try to get my bowfinders some real (war-time) xp. I think opening honor, taking lib up to either free settler or settler+worker, and then going for +50% xp before finishing lib could work well. I took patronage because I wasn't sure what my win condition was going to be and I had a lot of cities and there were a lot of maritime CSs. Obviously rationalism wins games and after that either Order or Autocracy work well.
As far as a nerf, why? Native tongue is essentially a gimmick that forces you to over-produce super-expensive scouts, as some people mentioned earlier. 2 Pathfinders is not enough, so you delay your early development in order to get specific boosts in development. Maybe. Or you get surrounded by AIs. Or water. Or barbs (if your pathfinders have to fight barbs, they're not getting huts). I would say in order to make full use of Shoshone, you need to have at least 2 bowfinders fairly early, and probably 3 is where it starts to get good. Which I think amounts to between 6 to 8 huts minimum (though I could be wrong on that). Those specific development bumps are significant in the short term (pantheon lets you better plan your later cities based on tile/improvement boosts, culture lets you get your barb slaying on quicker, more efficiently, and for more benefit, population lets you work that copper hill to pay for your CBs and build more quickly). I think the Shoshone are powerful, but in order to make the best use of their synergies, limited to a very specific kind of gameplay, best suited to war. As many have noted, it is much more difficult in BNW to keep early conflicts local (i.e. without long-term diplomatic penalties), unless you can goad the AI into attacking you first.
I feel like the AI plays the shoshone this way, which is very vexing to a human player (losing good early city spots to aggressive expansion with no recourse but a diplomatically damaging and difficult war due to BNW mechanics and +20% combat in friendly territory). This is probably the reason people are asking for a nerf. This is mostly a matter of the Shoshone being experts in taking up space and not because of bowfinders, which I doubt the AI can even use effectively. I also doubt that the AI is as good at finding huts or that they can leverage those bonuses as effectively as a human player. My suggestion is for players to expand more aggressively against the shoshone when spawning near them to make sure they get the cities and resources they need. Later in the game they have no ability to get ahead, and my guess is that the worst they can do is stunt a human player's growth enough to let another more powerful AI get ahead.
Tachii
Procrastinator
Even if they DOW, you still suffer diplo hit now if they take a city, or so I've heard and experienced. Early wars seems utterly crippling unless you're Assyria or just anybody going for a Dominantion victory. 
Kiwi Tyrant
Evil Jollification
Sorry dude, I'm finding you can duplicate on ruin #1 and again on ruin #4.
Also you can pop a faith ruin without founding a pantheon. I initially thought it might only be an option on ruin #6, but reading here it seems the trigger is turn 20 to make it available.
Nickbonista
Chieftain
Thanks, I'm playing the Shoshone now on emperor and it's proving an example. I got the great library (a hotly discussed topic itself) and from there could beeline the other usually out of reach wonders to gain my advantage, along with the universities, to set me away towards a science victory
I haven't read any of this thread and I don't feel the Shoshone are particularly OP, but instead of nerfing "powerful" civs I believe in buffing the "weaker". Stronger unique traits for everyone adds more flavor to each civ, and in turns adds to the lasting appeal of the game. Probably was stated before but this is a long thread.
feralminded
Obsessive Number Cruncher
I believe the faith option for ruins is disabled until 20 turns have passed. After that I believe you get 20 faith if you don't already have a pantheon, and 60 if you do. The numbers may not be precise but it's something along those lines. This is why a faith ruin is extremely rare for most (some people have never gotten one) because by turn 20 half the ruins on the map are already gone.
andrew00100
Chieftain
dont think shoshone needs a nerf cos the AI dont seems to use them well
a nerf would nerf them to the ground
a nerf would nerf them to the ground
Falconiano
Prince
I'm pretty sure that getting Faith goodie hut has nothing to do with having a pantheon, nor with having faith generation.
At this point I'm starting to believe it's turn-related.
Abraxis
☮
Wrong. If you go back to page 5 I posted a picture of my shoshone game, 22 civ immortal, only +1 piety, yet I have a pantheon.
How do you suppose I got that?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12677337&postcount=86
If you pop a faith ruin pre-pantheon, you will get enough faith to found a pantheon (I've gotten as much as 45 faith before). After you have a pantheon, faith ruins give 30% (rounded) towards your next Great Prophet. So, for the 200 faith GP that's 60 faith.
JustinianIV
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2013
- Messages
- 245
BTW, I've changed my mind somewhat.
I now believe that all this Shoshone hating is unnecessary. The fact is they seem OP because other civs (mostly from Vanilla) need to be buffed. They need to be adapted to the BNW.
I now believe that all this Shoshone hating is unnecessary. The fact is they seem OP because other civs (mostly from Vanilla) need to be buffed. They need to be adapted to the BNW.
pben
Chieftain
The only think I found unfair is they get the compound bow instead of the standard archer that everybody else gets from the goody huts. That is just too good of a deal that early in the game.
