how to not fall behind in tech as a warmonger

[grizly]

Hello!

I like to play as a warmonger, and I actually managed to acheive 2 domination victories on lvl 4 and 1 on lvl 5.

Lately, I started to play multiplayer with a friend. He chose korea, which is a strong tech empire, and now on turn 150, he has quite a big advantage over me in tech.

Now my research path is basically rushing construction, then going for writing and then going for the the national college tech (can't remember the name).
As for social policies, I complete the honor tree, then going for the commerce tree.

Do I do anything wrong that causes me to fall behind in tech? maybe going for writing first or something?

any advice will be welcome, thanks

 

[joncnunn]

The first problem is having chosen anything other than Tradition or Liberty as the social policy; both are them are much more economically powerful as a free tree than Honor even if fighting.
If planning on self founding 4 or fewer cities and then conquering the rest, Tradition has the edge. If planning on self founding 6+ cities and then conquering the rest, Liberty has the edge.
The second problem is that Rationalism should always be the second full social tree chosen.

Both opening Honor or Commerce as fillers after the first tree while waiting to be allowed into Rationalism are good when planning on conquering.

 

[grizly]

thank you.

don't you think that I should at least open the honor tree in the beginning of the game, to earn the culture bonus from killing barbarians?

Also, I just checked the liberty tree, since I make only 2 cities before start conquering, and I can't see how it helps me with tech (seems to help with culture, growth and happiness, things which I really don't have a problem with). can you explain how it helps me please?

 

[Browd]

The arithmetic has been done several times demonstrating that the Honor opener does not repay its long-term cost (increasing the cost of every subsequent policy, delaying the benefits of those policies) from barb culture-kills. Even with the Raging Barbarians setting, it's not possible to kill enough barbs to outweigh those costs. If you believe you need the Honor opener's boost for barb combat and notice of new barb camps, OK, but recognize that you are paying a real cost for that crutch. Do so if you can't survive the early game without it, but better to learn how to survive without it.

 

[grizly]

well I can easily deal with the barbarians early, that's not a problem, but honor helps me with combat in general (against other civs).
I just still can't understand how the liberty tree helps me to not fall behind in tech

 

[Browd]

The Honor opener does not help you with combat with other civs -- the Honor opener's bonuses only apply to combat against barbs. If you take only the Honor opener, you are wasting a policy. If you are taking other policies in Honor as well, so be it, but the opener alone is generally a poor choice.

Technology is mainly driven by population. Liberty helps you spit out far more cities, more quickly, than any other policy tree. More cities => more pop. More pop => more science.

Same goes for Tradition, which provides great growth bonuses in your capital and additional cities, although two of its benefits (free aqueduct and free culture building) are limited to your first 4 cities, so it is commonly viewed as a "tall" policy tree, while Liberty's rewards are not limited by number of cities, so it arguably better accommodates a "wide" play-style. Honor is only good for one thing -- taking other people's stuff -- and that requires that you be committed to Honor and your military enough to take other peoples' stuff quickly --- if you dawdle, you will be outmatched technologically fairly quickly.

 

[grizly]

OK, thanks now I understand better

one more (noob) question: why do you say that more population=more technology ?
I mean, other than science specialists (which I don't have in the beginning of the game), how does more population produce more technology?

 

[Browd]

Each citizen produces one science (beaker). Library adds +1 beaker per 2 citizens, Public School adds another +1 beaker per two citizens. National College is +50% of beakers produced in that city. University is +33% (boosted by another 17% with the Rationalism policy Free Thought). Research Labs and an Observatory are each another +50%. The Rationalism opener adds another +10% if your empire is happy. So, just the population alone in a happy 30-citizen capital in which you built the National College will, by the late game (post Research Labs and Free Thought), be producing 78 beakers (93, if you also have an observatory in that city), dwarfing the yield from the science buildings themselves (NC and Public School each give +3 beakers and Research Lab gives +4). And all that is before you work the first science specialist slot.

 

[grizly]

thank you very much!

 

[Armano]

You should not underestimate the Honor tree.
I think it is very strong. You also get with the third one +2 culture in every city, if a soldier or even in the late game a scout is in the city. Latest there you get more culture than in the liberty opener.
Then finally if you complete honor, you get an incredible amount of gold during war! You also get unique bonis for war.
To not fall behind in Technology, you should try to attack early and the civ with the great library, if it is a neighbour.

I play sometimes the strategy, if suitable, where I first get the compsite bowmen. With this it is possible to conqueer another civ in T50/60. With possibly having the great library and 3-4 cities, also enough money to upgrade your lvl 3-6 army of composite bowmen, ready to attack the next civ.

Always get your bowmens logistic and range. Having 2/3 of these they are almost unbeatble until they are outdated.
Give it a try! Its much fun!
Best civ in my oppinion is boudicca, since you get a 'free' religion and you have no need to build a shrine and you have the halls, which give extra happiness, you will need it.

 

[grizly]

You should not underestimate the Honor tree.
I think it is very strong. You also get with the third one +2 culture in every city, if a soldier or even in the late game a scout is in the city. Latest there you get more culture than in the liberty opener.
Then finally if you complete honor, you get an incredible amount of gold during war! You also get unique bonis for war.
To not fall behind in Technology, you should try to attack early and the civ with the great library, if it is a neighbour.

I play sometimes the strategy, if suitable, where I first get the compsite bowmen. With this it is possible to conqueer another civ in T50/60. With possibly having the great library and 3-4 cities, also enough money to upgrade your lvl 3-6 army of composite bowmen, ready to attack the next civ.

Always get your bowmens logistic and range. Having 2/3 of these they are almost unbeatble until they are outdated.
Give it a try! Its much fun!
Best civ in my oppinion is boudicca, since you get a 'free' religion and you have no need to build a shrine and you have the halls, which give extra happiness, you will need it.

Well, I used to use the exact strategy you described and it worked great in single player. But then, when I started playing multi with a friend, who focused on tech, he completely destroyed me tech-wise (by turn 150-200 he was producing 2 times the tech I produced), which is why I opened this thread (I also still wanted to be a warmonger, because I find it boring without wars).

I followed the advice on this thread and opened the tradition tree first, without honor at all. I also didn't go for the composite bowmen rush, but instead waited until crossbowmen. it ended up working much much better, because not only I was much much better on tech, I also got a lot of wonders from the civ I conquered (because usually by that stage of the game, or maybe a little bit later, I would have already conquered my whole continent, so the other civs didn't have many wonders).