If you could improve Civ 4 in any way, how would you do it?

[rah]

Not sure what's so bad about failgold, there are many mechanics for getting gold
(Great Merchant, selling techs and resis being most common)..
and they are probably even better, geez the Merchants can give huge amounts.

All things that players can do better than AIs, and AIs get level bonuses instead.
Looks fair.

To me it just feels a bit dirty. It was not something the designers had in mind.
The thinking was that it would be compensation for losing a wonder race. Not the exploit that it has become. But again it comes down to personal taste. If you feel you need to do it, fine. Personally I don't use it. I do build some that I hope to lose the race on but never in multiple cities. But then I don't routinely play deity where a few extra tricks are supposed to be necessary.

 

[Windsor]

Selling techs and resources doesn't actually create gold, it moves gold from one player to another. But yes, the AI should be taught how to manage its economy properly. It's a shame when selling techs and resources for gold really only goes one way.

Failgold and overflow gold are super efficient ways to create gold and both are really not even intended as methods of creating gold. As a result Markets, Grocers and Banks are laughed at. Why build a Market when you can just get a Forge and chop some trees?

A regular Merchant doesn't produce much gold at all. A GM on a trade mission will, but you've used quite a lot of resources on producing that GM. That being said, the trade mission does deserve a slight nerf.

edit: I'm against the formula for how hammers is converted into gold when building wealth in BTS too. I prefer the vanilla formula where it's a much worse option.

 

[Lexicus]

Selling techs and resources doesn't actually create gold, it moves gold from one player to another. But yes, the AI should be taught how to manage its economy properly. It's a shame when selling techs and resources for gold really only goes one way.

Well, from my perspective as a tech-seller, it kinda does, because getting gold and in exchange I'm giving away nothing but the ability to generate more gold (can't sell a tech twice to the same AI).

 

[Fippy]

Failgold and overflow gold are super efficient ways to create gold and both are really not even intended as methods of creating gold. As a result Markets, Grocers and Banks are laughed at. Why build a Market when you can just get a Forge and chop some trees?

They are expensive, even if i know i will have 0% science turns i might not build them.

Failgold is not always used, and far less dominant than you guys say here.
Cannot put this on failgold if those 3 buildings are just not very good.

A regular Merchant doesn't produce much gold at all. A GM on a trade mission will, but you've used quite a lot of resources on producing that GM. That being said, the trade mission does deserve a slight nerf.

Well you only used some merchants for a while, when being in Caste.
Might be less resources than a market..

 

[Windsor]

Failgold is not always used, and far less dominant than you guys say here.
Cannot put this on failgold if those 3 buildings are just not very good.

They're perfectly fine buildings. Expensive, but worth the investment and a solid boost to your economy.

Just running a low science slider is inefficient.

Well you only used some merchants for a while, when being in Caste.
Might be less resources than a market..

Great Merchants doesn't give enough gold for the entire game, but as I said the trade mission does deserve a nerf.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That reminds me of another improvement Civ IV could use. The imbalance instability from SMAC. A lot of the "no point in those buildings" arguments fall away if you are pushed to keep the slider close to the middle rather than constantly using binary research.

 

[Windsor]

That reminds me of another improvement Civ IV could use. The imbalance instability from SMAC. A lot of the "no point in those buildings" arguments fall away if you are pushed to keep the slider close to the middle rather than constantly using binary research.

That would hurt rushbuying where the MGB-buildings are good.

 

[Fippy]

You are invited into tips & strategy, for some solid reasons why markets & co. are often skipped.
Or why grocers & banks are late.
Or why binary research and slider close to middle are not much different.

 

[shakabrade]

In my typical game, courthouses are mostly skipped (I find people overestimate them) and almost always Markets, Groceries and Banks (except in the capital).

Why?
Because they have huge opportunity costs. If you build Wealth instead, you will often get a tech that can be converted to gold and beakers via trade with much higher multiplier (and you do also get a tech itself ). For instance, Compass usually lands you CoL, Calendar and Construction.
Also, all of those buildings are built in an era where I get aggressive and then it is better (more efficient) to commit to units.
If tech trades are disabled (no fun) or you play Always War, Markets are worth far far more.

Usually, I get some breathing room for Markets around T120, so when I calculate Market or no Market for let's say 30 city, I will be in position that I can run 50% slider without trades for gold, failgold, GM missions. With them, I am at 80% slider. So, my Market will generate 0.2*0.25*30=1.5. So, simple return of value says that you'll get your money back in 80T (if you had +25% OR bonus for building a building). Now, there is an opportunity cost which is map dependent, but if you invest into a building instead of simply wealth, you delay Oxford and Printing Press, you delay better units, you delay everything. Add at least 25% of opportunity cost. That is 96T now. since I typically win around T200, it will never have chance to pay for itself.
Ok, sometimes you get a lot of happy, but that is nothing you can't do with 3 warriors in Hereditary Rule, and those are the former spawnbusting guys you already have.
Bear in mind that 30 is a good commerce city.
In normal game, only 1 or 2 cities you build will pass this check for Market buildings and great AI cities you capture often keep markets, groceries and banks.

Courthouses also don't pass when I try evaluating them like that, however ORG leaders and large empires give them more value and also a tactical advantage of seeing research from high tech civ.

 

[Drakarska]

Valid if you playing basic/quick/normal settings. But going without courthouses on a Huge + map at epic speed or greater is asking for a whole lot of problems.

 

[shakabrade]

Valid if you playing basic/quick/normal settings. But going without courthouses on a Huge + map at epic speed or greater is asking for a whole lot of problems.

You are right.

Then again, that is not my typical game. I almost exclusively play Standard, Normal, Deity so my assessment for other settings holds less value.

 

[apocalypse105]

Change the combat system and only allow stacking of the same units.

so you have counter units. pikes beat horse and sword beat pike and siege units need to be protected

make the hexes like in civ 5 so you can manouvre youre units. But dont allow one unit per tile allow stacking only with same unit types

 

[shakabrade]

Change the combat system and only allow stacking of the same units.

so you have counter units. pikes beat horse and sword beat pike and siege units need to be protected

make the hexes like in civ 5 so you can manouvre youre units. But dont allow one unit per tile allow stacking only with same unit types

That is more complicated than you realize. How would 7 Knights fare against 3 Pikes? How would units move around? You would also just have more SoDs. This combat mechanism we have isn't totally realistic, but it is playable. I would only add ranged attack (dealing damage) of max 1 tile to siege and nerf that damage a lot. 1UPT in Civ 5 lead exactly to what was expected, map filled with units that have nowhere to go (although I admit that sea full of land units I couldn't predict ).

Also, I really like how SoDs add to epicness. Overabstraction in Civ5 and 6 makes me feel like I am playing with a county and not really an empire.

 

[shakabrade]

How about that they introduced tactical minigame with hexes like in panzer generals (actually, just like in HoMM, why not). That would also enable more special options for the units. Also, for battles which are too easy, you would click on auto-battle to speed things up. That minigame would take surrounding terrain into an account. Units would move around in stacks as tiles cover 50-100 km^2 and inability to put all army in a tile make little sense.
Limiting max number of units by number and size of cities, available resources, government, policies would be essential so that map cannot be overcrowded and so that fights are not too frequent. However, gameplay would be slower and that would probably annoy me...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Something I have thought before that slipped my mind, but as of right now I KNOW I hate...

I want to win when I launch this accursed space ship. I'm three turns in, twelve to go, doing fricking nothing but waiting to win, and I am ANNOYED, not entertained.

 

[rah]

While I agree that it's boring, however when the AI launched, they'd win without giving you a chance of taking out their cap.

 

[Lexicus]

Yeah, the time lag between launch and win definitely ups the fun factor if it's the AI who launches and you need to go on a mad rush to their capital.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I disagree. The challenge of managing the possibility that multiple AIs might be on the verge of winning is reduced to "well, if they launch I'll just kill them, so no worries." Besides, if we accept the idea that expanding to another planet is victory what difference does stomping their capital after the ship has left make? It's not like the ship is suddenly dysfunctional or won't reach their destination.

 

[rah]

A valid point. But if you have the capabilities to "just kill them", the game is really already over.
So choose your style of boredom. Methodical elimination or pressing enter for 15 turns.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A valid point. But if you have the capabilities to "just kill them", the game is really already over.
So choose your style of boredom. Methodical elimination or pressing enter for 15 turns.

That's kind of my point. Culture wins are annoying, because they are just "okay, the third city hits the line in forty-two turns...forty-one...forty..." Domination (which is way better than conquest) is "okay, mashing another city or three should do it...soon as this one gets pacified...nope, wait, need that one too...okay..." The space launch path could be a way to "short path" a victory, launch, done, good...next game. I'd say in Civ3 most of my wins were space race for that reason. But in CivIV they gave it its equivalent level of annoying.