Immortal and Deity Without RAs

[mercury529]

Hello,

After a lengthy break from Civ 5 (the result of a lack of time rather than any issue with the game), I came back to play a few games of Gods and Kings. I am a fan of the expansion, and I do appreciate some of the balance changes.

One in particular seemed overdue - the modification of research agreements. It seems the new mechanism is far better, no longer trivializing the value of hard-teching. But I find myself falling into my old pattern of avoiding RAs (I did this previously because I felt they were abusive).

Now I am curious, how much of a disadvantage is avoiding RAs on Immortal and Deity? In vanilla, I felt like I was at a tremendous disadvantage. Since I have played G&K, I am generally finding my Immortal and Deity games easier than they were in vanilla. In particular, I have been pursuing Diplomatic Victory because it seems the least time-consuming way to end games in which you have secured a winnable position (while 1upt is a tremendous improvement, I still find war a bit tedious).

So how much of a handicap do you feel avoiding RAs is? I feel while it certainly slows down my tech pace, it does allow me the flexibility to maintain a smaller army (I have more cash on hand to rush buy units), maintain a higher number of CS relationships, or avoid unwanted wars by taking fewer DoFs. So while it may not be optimal play, it doesn't feel like I am suffering as much for taking that play style.

So I was curious:
How important do you think RAs are to successful higher level play?
How important do you think RAs are to achieving victory more frequently?
How important do you think RAs are to ending games at lower turn counts?

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[stii]

My issue with RA is that it requires a declaration of friendship when tends to annoy other AIs. This reduces the gold you generate from trading and often ends with multiple players declaring war on you.

Obviously you end up further behind but if no one is attacking you that isn't really a problem and you can still sign them later when you are more stable. You need to be a really long way behind before you actually lose because they are so bad at winning the game.

 

[Unresolved]

I don't feel like avoiding RA's is a handicap. My science games with and without RA's are about equal in terms of finish times. What you lack in RA's, you gain in additional gold to rush-buy science buildings.

 

[Buccaneer]

I don't feel like avoiding RA's is a handicap. My science games with and without RA's are about equal in terms of finish times. What you lack in RA's, you gain in additional gold to rush-buy science buildings.

Same here. I can't remember the last Immortal game I played that I did an RA. I simply don't do RAs, partly because I don't bother much with DoF. Now stealing techs is a different story...

 

[Deau]

For peaceful victories, theyre mandatory to optimize turn-to-victory but definitely not mandatory to win. They're essential for OCC(maybe not on immortal). Expanding through war (which generally means your relationship to AI will be to the ground and you won't get RAs anyway) is actually stronger than peaceful+spam RAs as far as turn-to-victory goes though so it is really more a matter of how you play your game.

 

[The Pilgrim]

While you can win without RA's at all, avoiding them intentionally doesn't give you any advantage either. If you're warring a lot you'll face a natural RA deprivation. Otherwise it's up to you. For peaceful play (few cities) they are more beneficial, since they provide a significant buff to your science (irt turn counts).

In addition there is a big difference between immortal and deity. Immortal AI often has neither cash nor bpt to serve as a worthy RA partner. On deity it's much better. But again, outside OCC you can win without them.

 

[mercury529]

Thanks for the replies all. It seems like I am not alone in my experiences. Playing without RAs (even in a peaceful game) may not be optimal, but most of the time it doesn't seem to be a significant handicap either based on your feedback.

That is encouraging because I personally feel the more variety in strategy that is available to reach victory is a definite goal for a strategy game.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

RAs used to be a mechanic worth totally focusing on and maximizing (really at any difficulty). it isn't any longer but it's still worth doing if the conditions are favorable AND you can still win by avoiding them altogether. it's nice that it isnt necessary on deity.

as Deau said, OCC is one of the only exceptions at deity. And culture games can benefit from a few to reach certain milestones faster but deity culture is just a nightmare to me. i only go for the other 3 VCs at deity.

 

[plus]

in all my games i minimize science output in order to make games longer.so i use a mod that disables ra,no one has the option,also i use science bulb mod and disable sc from jungle,also always epic speed and i tweak each era to 4 which makes game longer than marathon but without the tedious production time..i cant play any other way