Immortal University 90 - Hammurabi

[Dubioza]

@ klonoklown

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Thanks! I was thinking about that, but I have religions in only few cities - so 100% GP rate from Pacifism wouldn't be of much use yet, right?

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And AI's don't want to trade me any techs anymore - CoL, Constr, Feud eventho I have Drama, Music, Lit (some Aest, Currency) they don't.

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And my GNP is very low, I think academy would still be of much use - with a bit of tile swapping, I can almost double what I have now - with TGLib and Parth in few turns I could still generate 2 fast GS in and shortly after GAge (after MoM finishes) I hope.

That early rush was useful, got rid of Shaka, got 2 good cities, but it stomped my economy pretty hard. I need those techs they don't want to trade me asap, is philo such a good trading-chip? In soonish GAge I could research all of those in no time, get CS, farm the lands (I need more workers!) and then hopefully bulb way to Lib.

Could this still work?

300 AD

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Got 162 gold fail-gold from ToA. It helped, but it doesn't seem that much. Barbs in Gaul got out a worker, that's why it still didn't grow to size 2! So then I tried to use Chris's trick, block city from working all tiles except 2 food tile.

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But then Surya's borders ruined that try. So I attacked. Won, lost, won, won and pillaged. Oh, well...lost 6 gpt from for 10 turns or so from supply to get 40 from pillaging and a worker. I finally made GMedic and last attack was with him, but it didn't give 1 xp for next level. And he almost dies at 95% odds.

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Traded Aest for Monarchy with Cathy - cause she was lowest in score next to Darius, who is still worst enemy of all. So he is out of trading picture.

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Founded Opis near lake:

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and last trade Currency for Calendar with Cathy again:

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I was building 'mids for fail-gold in Dur-Kur, but MoM have priority as Music was about to finish. In no time, Surya settled near my new city and Gilga was on his way with settler as well. So I'll wait with destroying that barb city, maybe he turns around.

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[vanillasine]

Overall strategy question regarding choking / worker steal

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Shaka's capital (on a hill) has Copper directly SW. When replaying the IU, I choked Shaka early enough that he was never able to get the copper online. There were players in the IU that were not so lucky, but they still managed to hold off Shaka with bowmen and chariots. But both of these were pretty risky because a couple turns here or there, or a bad RNG result of a battle, and Shaka is let loose.

To find out more about workers tealing / choking I read Tachywaxon's guide to 'slave economy'

my question is this:

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At the outset of the map, you settle, begin on a worker, tech AH while your warrior goes and explores around. It is at this point that you meet shaka, very close by, and immediately the strategy of choking comes to mind. At this point however, you do not know that Shaka has Copper in his BFC. you dont really know that surry is just up NE and he will expand south towards you. what makes you pull the trigger on deciding to go for the choke?

If you decide to immediately go for the choke, its always nice to get a worker or two out of it. but what if a worker doesn't show up where you are expecting it, or it just becomes too long because you 'suspect' he might have a military resource in his BFC and you want to get in before he connects it. If you commit to the choke, does it matter if you can get a worker out of it, or is that a deal breaker. There are so many unknowns.

Its especially a risky decision because Shaka has relatively high unit courage, and he spams archers if you are inside his borders. If you wait too long because you want to build up a few more warriors before the choke (eventually chariots), he will get the copper online anyway.

choking fail?

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What happens if your choking fails? Ok, you got a worker out of the early DOW, but you don't or can't prevent him from getting impi / axemen. Now you have a pissed off Shaka, who will DEFINITLY be going after you at some point, even if you get a peace treaty with him. You will be set back b/c you produced a bunch of units instead of perhaps building a settler. If all you get from the early war was a worker (and maybe not even then b/c choking is not necessarily worker stealing) is it worth pissing off your aggressive, unit spamming neighbor? What is the backup plan in case it fails?

Other than choke? on IMM+
cseanny's

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I looked at cseanny's description of his early game, and I was call that much less risky, but he still says that you need a bit of luck to pull it off. I am hoping he will check back so we can see how his strat went.

Ecori

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Ecori had a replay where he stole a worker and destroyed another one with a bowman. my question to you is would you have choked him like that and went for archery if not for the fact that you played the map before?

no wheoohrn

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In another of my playthroughs, i got lucky and Shaka founded judaism, which made him hate someone more. I built more units, and he didn't go into Wheoohrn mode. I might play that a bit further to see if i can make a break out.

conclusion

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I beat this map using the choke, but I used it only because i had to replay the map. I think this was right on the edge of the cutoff point where it was viable. Its very hard to say exactly what that cutoff point is, especially going in blind, but its good to know the extremes of the strategy.

 

[klonoklown]

@ Dubioza

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Yeah I think your plan should work just fine. Try to build up your commerce to help with teching. Philosophy is a great trading chip, but I would hold on to it till you can get some good trades out of it. Another reason it is considered good to bulb or self tech Philosophy.. the AI is less likely to tech it now, which is great because it is needed for Liberalism. In the mean time, during your golden age and that tech towards Liberalism, and decide if you want to war with Cuirs or Cannons and a melee unit.(maces/xbows/rifles)

Also I would start considering who your next victim is and scout there land. See what techs they do have and you can decipher what units your going against.

 

[Dubioza]

800 AD

...Another reason it is considered good to bulb or self tech Philosophy..the AI is less likely to tech it now, which is great because it is needed for Liberalism....

That's what I was looking for! I know I've read or heard that somewhere!

So that's why..

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I bulbed it!

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I guess I've been impatient about those trades, cause some of them came later.

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In 450 AD finished Parth, 500 AD MoM and started GAge. I built hindu monastery few turns ago and spread it to Babylon and later Nippur, 2 cities with some GP production. Converted to hindu and switched to Pacifism and HR. Researched CS, got another GS and built academy in capital and switched to Bureau asap. I still didn't attack southern barb city cause someone always had settler near.

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I self-teched MC earlier and was building forges all around. Self-teched CoL as well.

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Traded Aest for HbR with Giggles, who started with The Fist. Is it me? Ii could be! No stack close tho!

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Traded Music for Theo with Cathy.

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Teched Paper cause next GS was close, so I can bulb Edu with him.

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And suddenly my relations with everyone turned green! Finally decided to clear that barb city, risking again GMedic on 90+% odds, but he still didn't get 1 xp??!!?

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My settler was 1 turn to completion, but dang he was fast!

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And then I hear the Horns of War Is it me? No!!

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It's Surya!!​

Then horns again!

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Cathy joins Giggles!​

Got 3rd GS and partially bulbed Edu.

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Another one comes in 8 turns or so. Do I finish Edu myself? What will I bulb then? I could use one more academy tho, GGLove is looking good by now!
Do I research Feudalism, so I'd have the option to vassal Surya? I whipped forges and what-not in almost every city, so I can start on units. Cause I didn't build them at all On the bright side, I just finished HEpic in Ulundi Surya have Feud. for long time now, so we'll be facing LB's&elepults. So catas&..?.best units available are maces...or ele.

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EDIT: Hahaha I'm blind. Cathy didn't join with Giggles against Surya like I thought, she declared on Giggles! Well, time to build some units anyways, we'll see if anyone asks me to join in. Still think Feud is the way to go, right?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Early gamble = winrar

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Chariot rushed shaka. I then spammed cities and cottages until I eventually covered over 25% of the world's land. I took nat off lib at 1040AD and I didn't even bother bulbing. I stopped playing after getting to assembly line + artillery at 1550 AD with factories/power built in most cities because it was pointless. Sal was large, but behind in tech and had less mfg and less land to himself. He did have a lot of land though (23% without declaring on people, then a few PAvassals. Nothing I couldn't handle, but nothing I haven't done dozens of times with inf/arty.

The "gold exploit" isn't nearly as strong as people reacted to it in the thread. I was able to milk one AI for an extra 6 gold beyond just trading for his first 6. In other words, the net variance for most of the game that mattered was 6. Some "exploit". It would matter a lot more if there were actually more copies of resources the AI didn't have AND the AI had enough pop to make it relevant, but it just didn't. Eventually I got up to a "whopping" 24 /turn from resource trades, at 1000 AD after a renegotiation. Heck, by then I'd already won lib and had the game shored up.

Maybe on huge maps or different map layouts it matters more .

 

[vanillasine]

Early gamble = winrar

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Chariot rushed shaka. I then spammed cities and cottages until I eventually covered over 25% of the world's land. I took nat off lib at 1040AD and I didn't even bother bulbing. I stopped playing after getting to assembly line + artillery at 1550 AD with factories/power built in most cities because it was pointless. Sal was large, but behind in tech and had less mfg and less land to himself. He did have a lot of land though (23% without declaring on people, then a few PAvassals. Nothing I couldn't handle, but nothing I haven't done dozens of times with inf/arty.

Could you describe in more detail the chariot rush please? At what date did you start the attack and with how many chariots? how many cities did Shaka have then? He hooks up the copper in his capital fairly quickly - did you have to deal with impi at all? did you have some bowmen along?

my own attempts at TMIT's strategy in which i answer all my questions:

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edit: well, tried chariot / bowmen rushing myself. I got the northern city quite easily, and eventually the SW one by the deer, but b/c Ulundi was on the hill, I only managed to do get it by 825 BC. I am still limping to Writing... I got quite unlucky a few times, teh most hilarious being while on the hunt for a loose settler, I encountered a barbarian spearman. shaka actually killed it with his axeman, but I then promptly lost 2 chariots trying to finish the axman off.. sigh. during all this time i managed to get some chariots to 5xp, and eventually attacked with something like 10chariots and a few bowmen to finish him off.

Im waay behind on tech, and I can't really settle any more cities east of shaka's land for fear of breaking my economy (further). We'll see how it goes.

edit #2: I went back and was much more aggressive after taking first city. I lured the axman out with a wounded chariot, getting the capital down to 2 archers.. took ulundi in 1720 BC and the last city is by the tundra deer - no threat. I got kind of lucky.

edit #3: I played it through another time, this time, not being tempted by 2 workers, but instead building up my force before going directly for ulundi. that worked alot better, and I think it was a much more consistent result. i took the northern city shortly, since it wasn't on a hill. as an added bonus, shaka escaped with a settler far to the east near an oasis and iron. so it looks like very close to what TMIT was saying about 25% land.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Could you describe in more detail the chariot rush please? At what date did you start the attack and with how many chariots? how many cities did Shaka have then? He hooks up the copper in his capital fairly quickly - did you have to deal with impi at all? did you have some bowmen along?

Abuse ho!

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I researched AH and scouted right initially, meeting shaka early. I looped his capitol and (wrongly!) concluded he probably didn't have metal because I looped over the north first and missed the ONE fog tile that actually had copper. This mistaken read + AH prompted me to chariot rush the buttmonger ASAP. I wanted to worker steal, but he was defending it with an archer. So far no good.

I went worker ---> 2x warrior ---> settler ----> Worker ----> raxes + chariots. Shaka technically had just settled his 3rd city slightly after 2000 BC when I hit with 7 chariots (I think I might have had an 8th scouting around his eastern side...don't recall exactly). When I DoW I saw he had an axe, but his only cities other than Ulundi were a scouted flood plain site to the north (confirmed no metal) and his tundra hell city to the south with deer, most of which I could see. This prompted me to move on his capitol 1st on DoW (suspecting my annoying luck of failing to scout the one tile that had copper). He had 1 impi in south city I believe and whipped another. Here's where it gets interesting:

1. I pillaged copper on 2nd turn of the war, and kept chariots bunched to discourage him attacking out of his city with the impi.
2. I then took reinforcing chariots + chariots from the initial move and ran them north to grab his flood plain city. Since he didn't have copper, he couldn't build any more impi and thus tried to defend 6-7 chariots with 2 archers and an axe (failure for him).
3. This left the issue on how to take a capitol defended by 2 impi, 2 axe, and an archer. Shaka had a settler. My solution here was to take a CEASE FIRE, wait 3 turns for him to commit a settling party away from the capitol while healing + gathering a few more chariots, then immediately declare again.
4. On 2nd DoW, shaka was marching his settler west for marble and what turned out to be iron. He sent his impi . This left archer + 2 axes in capitol. I took it the following turn.
5. Just after he settled the marble site, I took his deer/coast city to the south.

After that, I stopped the war. He had one extra wandering impi that came from the east which I defended with warrior whips and chariots. I didn't want to try to muscle through 2 impi + archer defending his final city just for a junky site, and I knew based on land distribution that his culture wouldn't be a problem so even if he PAvassaled later I wouldn't care. Instead of using chariots on that, I used them + a few axes (built with zulu copper) to take 3 barbarian cities while settling as far north as the gems near sury. I had stockpiled enough gold for burst-researching aesthetics, which allowed me to trade for alphabet. Considering I was still in the green with over 10 cities in the BC era, the game was effectively over after this rush as I would go on to backfill and become #1 in size by a margin while quickly trading into tech parity.

Third Attempt...Ended bc of our really nice neightbor you know who DoWed me and I ragequited. I feel like a loser. Sorry guys, I can't beat ur IMM map... I wan't to kick myself. I suck. I'm loser!!

Don't get too discouraged. The very first IU Pacal game (so long ago that original host silverbullet was the OP for that game) I lost that map like 5x attempts before giving up. Struggle is part of the learning process too.

 

[Grashopa]

I can't believe I've never cease fired an AI. Didn't know you could stop a war without the 10 turns.

 

[klonoklown]

^ Don't feel bad, it took me about 6 months of playing Civ before I realized that too.

 

[vanillasine]

@TMIT

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thanks for the response --- In one of my attempts I did something similar to cease fire in that I moved all my units out of his BFC for a couple turns, and waited for him to move out with his settler. I still had to deal with 3 archers and an axman, but a lot better than the extra 2 archers and impi. the ceasefire could potentially have saved me a few turns of moving out of there and maybe he would've moved more of his stack.

 

[Dubioza]

1140 AD

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So I started to build lots of catas at first, still couldn't decide what to use with catas. Traded for Feudalism to build some LB defense.

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Backfilled last city:

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And few turns later Cathy asks me to join in the fun. Ok. I don't have that many units, but I feel safe, have few LB's and maces around and couple of Surya's cities in between. Too bad I didn't switched civics for more XP...hope I remember to do it later hopefully with cuirs.

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I just declared on him and on the same turn he asks me to join his side!

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I accepted both, what the heck My stack was on its way toward Surya's city...Cathy asks for tech. Yeah, why not! Now we gonna get relations and she can't beat me to Lib anyways.

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I skipped his closest city, wanted to get his capital asap, but took that one first....maybe I could've gone to capital directly. Finally GMedic gets his XP!

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Bulbed PPress. WWeariness unhappy here and there, but I counter it with HRule and some whips.

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Giggles made peace with Surya. My second stack going for southern cities.

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While northern took his capital!

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I wasn't counting, I thought I took all of his cities, but he have one more way east, one NE coast between Giggles and Saladin. And he don't want to capitulate now. So now what? To make 10 turn peace with Giggles, finish Surya and get back to Giggles? I fought deff against few his HA only on ex-Surya's iron city.

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Or to make 10 turn peace with Surya and start my way through sumerian territory? I can get Guilds out of it!

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I'm almost done researching Nat, for Lib>MT. I think that's needed for it, right?

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I lost a lot catas so far, 10 turn peace with Giggles would allow me to regroup.

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But then again, I still have 1.8 more power then Giggles and units still coming out of almost every city, while few build universities. Dunno...yet. But it feels this could be over soon. Delete Surya, cap Giggles, cuirs everyone else...well, cuirs will be available probably before Giggles falls. Maybe cap Darius first, who built AP? Most of us have only 1 city with his religion.

 

[Dubioza]

1310 AD
Short round, I couldn't fall asleep before I continued through this part LOL

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So I decided to make peace with Surya, for Guilds and continue war with Giggles.

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At this point I setup workers on "Leave old imp. and forests" (I want to save some forests for LMills) and automated them. Why are they building farms outside any BFC? I stopped them and chopped last forests for Taj and West Point.

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Was first to Lib and chose MT. But yeah, I need Gunpowder for cuirs as well

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Cathy makes peace with Giggles and Sally cap OCSurya.

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Well, my colorful stack was ready to attack (those maces near are hiding few catas). Attacked with them first and took it without loss.

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Other stack approached northern city. He had most of his units in there. With suicide catas my almost last unit took the city.

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Got 3rd GG and made 2nd GMedic. I settled one before in Ulundi. Forgot to screen it, got GS and bulbed big part of Chem.

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Researched GPowder and traded with Cathy again, so I can go for Econ.

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I could have gotten Compass with it, but I demanded it from Surya LOL Cause I put a turn into it, so I can beg for it, but nor him nor Cathy wanted to give it. Got pi....d for a second and demanded it. Got another GS, but he could only bulb the rest of Chem, so he waits for options now. Took more cities from Giggles and when he was at 4 I capped him. And my WWeariness got too high to handle without slider. It took longer then I thought...maybe I should've make GMedic sooner with 2nd GG.

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Sally is close to Econ - I need 4-5 turns, he 8. In NC I played before this, I had no problem with winning Lib, but Econ was close as well! I decided to give one city back to Giggles, to connect his empire. I saw TheFist from Sally too, I want "tampon zone" between us.

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I gifted ex-Surya ice city (northern most, on wine) to Cathy. I should've done that a lot sooner, I was loosing 18 gpt from it.

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So here we are now, 2 turns to TajMahal, 3 to WestPoint. Oxford will take 15 or so. And I finally built NEpic! In Surya's ex-capital, which have next to even odds for GEng, GPriest or GSpy.

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So, now when GAge from Taj starts, I'll switch civics for XP (I need to spread hindu in few cities) and build cuirs nearly everywhere. And then I'll start another one - or most likely extend it before it even ends. I was afraid for a second that Sally is plotting on me, but then I saw he's worst enemy with Darius again. Kuul. Even if he caps him, I'll kick his butt. Soon.

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The most interesting thing is that 'mids have been built just NOW! In 1300 AD! I totally forgot about them, had alt*units in city I nearly built'em for fail-gold.

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[Robert FIN]

Got owned once again...

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Round started good.

1st I wanna show you the cool Khmer city I captured:

Niiice wondeeers!!!!

I won the Libby race!!! (no screenshot..)

Wonder:


Darius and Cathy vassalled to Shaka and Giggles vassalled to Sally. I was in trouble. I teched Military Traditions but too late:


OMG!!! NO WAY!!! He was at pleased!! PLEASED"!!! Heck!!!

In about ten turns:


I got defeated... Too bad. I'm gonna play NC Liz game next so no more attempts. However it wasn't your fault. I just tried move up a level and failed. I might play IU some other time too. Good Job guys!! Keep going!

 

[Dubioza]

1535 AD Domination Victory!

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When Taj got built, switched to Vass, Merc and Theoc for more XP.

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I don't know if you guys do that or if that's optimal, but it seems worth it to me. With Econ done before end of GAge, I whipped cuirs everywhere and switched to FSpeech, FMarket and Pacifism.

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Got GE in ex-Surya's capital and hurried Versailles there. In 1500 AD got GSpy, and I had GScientist saved from before, so I started 3rd GAge.

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Now I switched to Rep & Vass, I left it on Pacifism. Sally stopped plotting and I had over 40 cuirs, with 4-5 every turn. "Older" units in 2 stacks, one near OCSurya. I was worried cause I couldn't "run away" more then 1.6 power ratio with Sally - but he was behind in techs, so I had to attack before he gets better units.

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First turn of war I killed some random units (Surya's and Sally's) guarding workers, and captured one Sally's city with cuirs.

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Second turn of war I suicided all my leftover cats, took second Sally's city and destroyed Surya.

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Giggles sent his little stack toward Baghdad. Great, reinforcements!

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Next turn Sally's monster stack showed up! He killed that little stack of Giggles, but this may be opportunity to kill it outside of city! And city defenders were weak and wounded!

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So I took Baghdad (he didn't want to capitulate, I don't know why it keeps saying that?)

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And then I killed his monster stack!

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Yeah, it was that big! With this stack gone, power ratio jumped to 3.2! Healthy units positioned toward Mecca (I want it for all its wonders!) and next turn I took it!

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And finally he capitulated!

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If he didn't I would have to stop the war, cause WWeariness was insane, had to up the culture slider 20-30-40-50 every turn of war! I checked Victory Conditions, and knew I'll win Domination. So question, how do you win Conquest and not Domination? Cap everyone, give them a lot of cities back so they just can't break out?

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And yeah, next turn, Victory!!

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MMMMonster Score!!!

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TY for the game! It was very rewarding experience and learned very much from it!

 

[Grashopa]

I accepted both, what the heck

Nice game dubioza

 

[dhuntgen]

domination in late game,

i founded my first city here

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first i wanted to grow like this, five city was from barbarian

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then first attack to shaka with elephants

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so

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shaka's land was very good, our chance was big and safety land. after shaka i declared war against khmer but i struggled with gilgamesh they were very powerful.

 

[klonoklown]

^ make sure you put info about the map and pictures in spoilers please! just so it doesn't ruin it for somebody that wants to play it blind, thanks

 

[dhuntgen]

^ make sure you put info about the map and pictures in spoilers please! just so it doesn't ruin it for somebody that wants to play it blind, thanks

i know these pictures not good because off my program..

 

[elitetroops]

^He wasn't talking about the quality of your pictures. Edit your post and add spoiler tags around everything except the first line (

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before the second line and [/SPOILER] at the end of the post), so that it does not give away info about the map to people who haven't played it yet.

 

[dhuntgen]

^He wasn't talking about the quality of your pictures. Edit your post and add spoiler tags around everything except the first line (

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before the second line and [/SPOILER] at the end of the post), so that it does not give away info about the map to people who haven't played it yet.

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haha i did