Impi upgrades -- Does the party go on?

[Argive]

I'm playing my 2nd BNW game with the Zulu. The Impi is by far the most impressive unit I've seen so far, and the unit maintenance bonus means you can field a devastating army in the classical and medieval periods.

So here's the question. Do the unique Zulu promotions -- those from the Ikanda -- continue when Impi are upgraded to pikemen? If yes, helicopter gunships will conquer every last bit of the planet circa 1970

 

[Matthew.]

Impi replace the pikeman and upgrade into riflemen. Actually for the better, since the lancer path is garbage.

 

[Wuddel]

The ones from the Ikanda carry over. So you could get them on (Long)swords as well (maybe even knights). The spear throw does not.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Sorry but impi upgrades into infantry line instead of lancer, the only exception civ

 

[aluelkdf]

I think that Zulu is given more credit than they deserve. I don't agree with the impi replacing pikemen. This is alluding that the Zulu had actually discovered all techs up to civil service. When in reality, the Zulu were in the classical era at best.

 

[Ravellion]

I think that Zulu is given more credit than they deserve. I don't agree with the impi replacing pikemen. This is alluding that the Zulu had actually discovered all techs up to civil service. When in reality, the Zulu were in the classical era at best.

They needed a spear unit that could go toe to toe with early gunpowder units, mimicking the myth of the zulu warriors vs the English. If they'd made the spearman that powerful, it would be broken.

Gameplay > realism.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

I think that Zulu is given more credit than they deserve. I don't agree with the impi replacing pikemen. This is alluding that the Zulu had actually discovered all techs up to civil service. When in reality, the Zulu were in the classical era at best.

As well, the zulu DID discover civil service, and was the main strength of the impi armies. The young were required to ferry supplies back and forth from the front, the strong men became warriors which fought and earned new land and rescources for the homeland, the weak farmed and raised livestock for the strong, and women crafted the hides and leaves into usable cloth for the armourist, who then supplied the Zulu army. Everyone did their CIVIC DUTY for the better of the whole. I'd declare it reasonable to make the Impi a unit of civil service.

 

[Matthew.]

How dare they make something historically inaccurate in a game that specifically tells you it is not historically accurate when you start it up?

The worst offender is obviously George Washington. Do the devs really expect us to believe he was alive and healthy during the ancient era?! They must take us for morons!

 

[aluelkdf]

They needed a spear unit that could go toe to toe with early gunpowder units, mimicking the myth of the zulu warriors vs the English. If they'd made the spearman that powerful, it would be broken.

Gameplay > realism.

I don't think an individual Impi was much more powerful than a regular spearman. The Zulu had numbers on their side and were able to swarm the British.

But if you took one Impi spearman and one spearman from ancient Sparta and had them fight to the death, the Spartan would probably win. The Spartans were likely better trained (not that the Zulu warriors didn't train, its just that Spartans took military training to the extreme).

 

[NamesAreStupid]

I don't think an individual Impi was much more powerful than a regular spearman. The Zulu had numbers on their side and were able to swarm the British.

But if you took one Impi spearman and one spearman from ancient Sparta and had them fight to the death, the Spartan would probably win. The Spartans were likely better trained (not that the Zulu warriors didn't train, its just that Spartans took military training to the extreme).

The Spartans got outclassed by Athenians because of just that. They were all physical training and no tactics.

 

[Altisma]

They needed a spear unit that could go toe to toe with early gunpowder units, mimicking the myth of the zulu warriors vs the English. If they'd made the spearman that powerful, it would be broken.

Gameplay > realism.

What about Samurai, Mohawk Warriors, and Jaguars. All them have had bigger historical bouts with melee vs gun battles.

 

[Yzman]

What about Samurai, Mohawk Warriors, and Jaguars. All them have had bigger historical bouts with melee vs gun battles.

Samurai can go toe to toe with muskets just fine in the game.

Mohawk warriors and jaguars do not have any amazing battle records against guns that I know of. In fact, they were slaughtered by them. I think the tech level is appropriate.

 

[Altisma]

Samurai can go toe to toe with muskets just fine in the game.

Mohawk warriors and jaguars do not have any amazing battle records against guns that I know of. In fact, they were slaughtered by them. I think the tech level is appropriate.

Your missing the point.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Samurai can go toe to toe with muskets just fine in the game.

Mohawk warriors and jaguars do not have any amazing battle records against guns that I know of. In fact, they were slaughtered by them. I think the tech level is appropriate.

In the Civilopedia they say the Mohawk Warrior was a fear of French, British and American armies for nearly 200 years.
In my history class (in Canada) the main reason why they were such terrifying foes is because they eventually acquired guns and they used a different strategy, when the French forces were expecting a field battle advancing in lines, the Iroquois surrounded these men in circle. In the Native American culture where everyone is considered equal, having someone on the front line potentially dying first was considered unethical. The French and the Iroquois did sign a peace treaty (in French victory) in 1701, becoming friends afterwards though.

 

[Pythakoreas]

What about Samurai, Mohawk Warriors, and Jaguars. All them have had bigger historical bouts with melee vs gun battles.

I like the way they are now. Jaguars make me think of a jungle warlord in 4000 BC, Mohawk Warriors the men in brutal times when war was a routine, Samurais in Medieval times striving for honor.

I wouldn't be surprised if Impis were a Rifleman replacement, weren't they a creation of Shaka's military reforms, who ruled in 19th century?

 

[Yzman]

Your missing the point.

Please enlighten me then. I doubt I am, I just disagree with you.

 

[Arachnofiend]

In the Civilopedia they say the Mohawk Warrior was a fear of French, British and American armies for nearly 200 years.

The Mohawk Warrior that was a fear of French, British, and American armies used guns traded from European powers for Iroquois fur.

Seriously, pretty all of the North American native powers started using guns roughly as soon as they were introduced to them. Part of why its pretty refreshing to see the Comanche Rider replacing Cavalry rather than being a ranged Horseman or whatever.

The Spartans got outclassed by Athenians because of just that. They were all physical training and no tactics.

Wait... what? You do know the Spartans sacked Athens, right? Multiple times? The conflicts between them are remembered as the first great clash between democracy (well, sort of) and autocracy, in which democracy saw an embarrassing defeat.

 

[Babri]

Good tactics triumph over physical strength of an individual unit. Just check history, Keshliks (lightly armoured & mobile) massacred heavily armoured knights of Europe because they used better tactics. Impis under Shaka Zulu would probably be able to defeat spartan spearmen because of their flanking capabilities & mobility.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Except the Spartans had a good tactic and that was superior training. The Impis may be more mobile but even after the Spartans are flanked, they have tougher shields, armour, a strict formation and much higher discipline.

 

[The QC]

But if you took one Impi spearman and one spearman from ancient Sparta and had them fight to the death, the Spartan would probably win. The Spartans were likely better trained (not that the Zulu warriors didn't train, its just that Spartans took military training to the extreme).

Since you solved that one, I guess we can move on and decide who would win if The Hulk fought Superman .

Jokes aside, it's certainly not as simple as that and a battle between the Zulu and Sparta would depend on many factors (where it happens, who is leading, how the battle starts, who knows the terrain better, who is tired, who has superior troop numbers and so on and so on).

You're right that the Impi have no specific technological advantage over the Greek hoplite, but then the same thing applies to all medieval European pikemen. Unlike in Civ, in real life medieval pikemen didn't have any outstanding features to make them superior to ancient spear warriors. In fact, the Scots in the times of William Wallace used a pike formation inspired by the Greek phalanx, but inferior because they didn't have similarly strong shields (and lacked training).