Incentives under communism?

[NinjaCow64]

The USSR at its pinnacle was a pure communist system.

No, it wasn't. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were Communists, yes, but they never claimed to have achieved Communism. According to the USSR, they were in the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism (e.g a stateless, classless utopia), this transitional stage is better known as Socialism.

Neighbors spied on neighbors, and reported them. Can you imagine a more paranoid society?

Yes, middle class white Americans living in suburbia. I struggle to imagine something more paranoid than calling the cops because a black man walked down the street or because a black family had a barbecue in the local park, on top of the other incredibly bizarre things that Americans living in suburbia do on the day to day.

They tell us about going to the supermarket and not having a choice in what to buy. They bought what was available. They see us buying meat, chicken, fish, bread, etc. and believe that we are very lucky and do not realize it. I believe they are correct.

Which system is better than the one we have or had? What we have is much better than whatever comes in second. We are spoiled, and we don’t even realize it because we are so close to it. Sometimes we need to look from the outside in.

Better for whom? These systems certainly aren't great for the homeless. What "choice" of groceries does a person living paycheck to paycheck have? Or even worse, those on incredibly restrictive welfare programs (such as SNAP or the Indue Card) that both artificially restrict choice and provide so little monetary value that there's no real option? This is not to mention those living in exploited countries.

I am sure under Feudalism those fortunate enough to have been born into nobility or were particularly successful merchants had lots of choice of what kinds of food they could eat. Doesn't mean that Feudalism was a good system.

The current socialist/communist countries are already failing.

Says who?

 

[Zardnaar]

No, it wasn't. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were Communists, yes, but they never claimed to have achieved Communism. According to the USSR, they were in the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism (e.g a stateless, classless utopia), this transitional stage is better known as Socialism.


Yes, middle class white Americans living in suburbia. I struggle to imagine something more paranoid than calling the cops because a black man walked down the street or because a black family had a barbecue in the local park, on top of the other incredibly bizarre things that Americans living in suburbia do on the day to day.



Better for whom? These systems certainly aren't great for the homeless. What "choice" of groceries does a person living paycheck to paycheck have? Or even worse, those on incredibly restrictive welfare programs (such as SNAP or the Indue Card) that both artificially restrict choice and provide so little monetary value that there's no real option? This is not to mention those living in exploited countries.

I am sure under Feudalism those fortunate enough to have been born into nobility or were particularly successful merchants had lots of choice of what kinds of food they could eat. Doesn't mean that Feudalism was a good system.


Says who?

Main point was everyone in say East Germany was essentially paranoid.

You can see elements of it in modern day Russia. They've basically had 100+ years of it arguably 500+.

Capitalism doesn't have the best record with minorities. In communism as attempted everyone's a minority and the plutocrats got replaced with party officials.

So instead of a small underclass it's inverted with the top 5-10% and the bottom 90-95% who have no real legal discourse available to them if they're getting carted off to Siberia or wherever.

Modern Capitalism is around 400 years old maybe 300 no communist as attempted regime has really lasted more than 70 odd years and that's being generous. They've either collapsed, transitioned to something else or are North Korea.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Neighbors spied on neighbors, and reported them. Can you imagine a more paranoid society?

Congratulations. You have just described the experience of being a gay person in the United States up to 2003.

 

[Zardnaar]

Congratulations. You have just described the experience of being a gay person in the United States up to 2003.

And things got changed without directly murdering millions.

And hyperbolic. It was a lot more pervasive in East Germany.

 

[Senethro]

And things got changed without directly murdering millions.

And hyperbolic. It was a lot more pervasive in East Germany.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-msm-508.pdf

Seems like a fair few to be so easily dismissed by your raging commie hateboner.

 

[NinjaCow64]

And things got changed without directly murdering millions.

Directly being the operative word here. 700,000 people died of AIDS in the United States, many of these deaths are attributable to Reagan's purposeful mishandling of the epidemic because he hated gay people.

And hyperbolic. It was a lot more pervasive in East Germany.

lol, East Germany was notable for having a better track record on gay rights than West Germany.

 

[Zardnaar]

Directly being the operative word here. 700,000 people died of AIDS in the United States, many of these deaths are attributable to Reagan's purposeful mishandling of the epidemic because he hated gay people.


lol, East Germany was notable for having a better track record on gay rights than West Germany.

Aids was gonna happen anyway it wasn't the state directly killing people. It's not even in the same league.

The specific claim was the police kept track of gay people pre 2003.

By all pervasive in East Germany each apartment block was supposed to have an informant. Can't remember the exact amount.

 

[Gorbles]

Aids was gonna happen anyway it wasn't the state directly killing people.

"consequences under capitalism aren't capitalism's fault, but consequences under socialist or communist regimes are 100% the fault of the regime"

 

[NinjaCow64]

Aids was gonna happen anyway it wasn't the state directly killing people. It's not even in the same league.

Reagan health officials to "as little as possible" to combat AIDS. Presumably because he hated the demographics that it effected the most.

A government refusing to protect a group from a natural disaster is no different than the government straight up shooting them.

The specific claim was the police kept track of gay people pre 2003.

In which country? East Germany ceased to exist in 1990.

 

[Zardnaar]

"consequences under capitalism aren't capitalism's fault, but consequences under socialist or communist regimes are 100% the fault of the regime"

If directly xaused by regime yes. Can't really blame capitalism for aids and its not like Communist regimes did much better either with releases of anthrax etc.

 

[Zardnaar]

Reagan health officials to "as little as possible" to combat AIDS. Presumably because he hated the demographics that it effected the most.

A government refusing to protect a group from a natural disaster is no different than the government straight up shooting them.


In which country? East Germany ceased to exist in 1990.

Aids is less lethal than Communism it seems.

Also see previous comments about things like anthrax leaks in USSR. So they Dailey with a lot of things as well and had man made things piled on top of that.

Soviets iirc reused needles in 80s and spread aids for example but you cherry pick Reagans screw ups (note I hate Reagan Gorvachev did his best at least).

I worked with East German he got paid sometimes in Toilet paper. Sounds silly but they couldn't produce enough. In USSR they blocked their pipes from using newspaper.

Basically the toilet paper was the better currency.

 

[Senethro]

If directly xaused by regime yes. Can't really blame capitalism for aids and its not like Communist regimes did much better either with releases of anthrax etc.

Don't be thick. Other nations being bad doesn't make capitalistic nations good. Inaction in the face of lethal threat is culpable (once you get above the level of the individual, anyway)

 

[Senethro]

Aids is less lethal than Communism it seems.

Also see previous comments about things like anthrax leaks in USSR. So they Dailey with a lot of things as well and had man made things piled on top of that.

Soviets iirc reused needles in 80s and spread aids for example but you cherry pick Reagans screw ups (note I hate Reagan Gorvachev did his best at least).

I worked with East German he got paid sometimes in Toilet paper. Sounds silly but they couldn't produce enough. In USSR they blocked their pipes from using newspaper.

Basically the toilet paper was the better currency.

So what?

You pulling out these dumb little factoids and anecdotes, but not saying what you think or what you mean.

Do you even know yourself?

 

[Gorbles]

If directly xaused by regime yes.

The AIDs epidemic in the US was directly caused by the regime not doing anything about it, yes. Glad you agree!

 

[NinjaCow64]

Aids is less lethal than Communism it seems.

Do you know what the Reagan's press secretary Larry Speakes did when he was asked about the spread of AIDS in America at a White House press conference? He laughed. He joked about it. The White House thought that people dying from a horrific disease was a hilarious punchline. And now you are using the death of 700,000 people from AIDS as a joke, just like Reagan. Shame on you.

 

[Zardnaar]

Do you know what the Reagan's press secretary Larry Speakes did when he was asked about the spread of AIDS in America at a White House press conference? He laughed. He joked about it. The White House thought that people dying from a horrific disease was a hilarious punchline. And now you are using the death of 700,000 people from AIDS as a joke, just like Reagan. Shame on you.

I wasn't joking 15 million citizens of the USSR were killed dues direct actions o those revolutionaries.

AIDs was in USA long before Reagan.

The what about isms are essentially irrelevant anyway its Communusm has to prove itself here. Feel free to start another thread about the failings of the USA.

 

[Zardnaar]

So what?

You pulling out these dumb little factoids and anecdotes, but not saying what you think or what you mean.

Do you even know yourself?

Those little factoids and anecdotes are relevant to the thread.

Incentives under communism. It's failures are well documented, plenty of eye witness accounts.

Mire than a few posters here want to try ot all over again with no course correction from last time which caused ot to fail s attempted.

They can't course correct because the dogma doesn't allow it and thr problems it creates are systematic.

Every time it's been attempted it basically failed with severe consequences in multiple cases (10-30% death toll type severe). Such regimes without fail collapsed or transitioned to something else.

 

[Senethro]

Those little factoids and anecdotes are relevant to the thread.

Incentives under communism. It's failures are well documented, plenty of eye witness accounts.

Mire than a few posters here want to try ot all over again with no course correction from last time which caused ot to fail s attempted.

They can't course correct because the dogma doesn't allow it and thr problems it creates are systematic.

Every time it's been attempted it basically failed with severe consequences in multiple cases (10-30% death toll type severe). Such regimes without fail collapsed or transitioned to something else.

But that isn't what you're saying here.

In an extremely muddled way you're saying that we should put up with AIDS deaths, because communism is worse.

When you directly reply to a thing in that manner AND don't explain the working of your grabbag of factoids/anecdotes (what they mean, how they work, what action we should take in response), thats what it appears to mean.

If you mean something else, you should say it explicitly.

 

[Gorbles]

The what about isms are essentially irrelevant anyway its Communusm has to prove itself here. Feel free to start another thread about the failings of the USA.

Funny how your factoids are relevant, but nobody elses' are.

Those little factoids and anecdotes are relevant to the thread.

Let's get this straight, eh?

Sophie replied to Joe Biggs, who made a claim about "imagining a paranoid society". She pointed out that that was exactly the experience of gay folk in the US, up until a certain date.

At this point, you decided to intervene by saying, and I quote: "And things got changed without directly murdering millions.".

This is when people decided to reply to you, to correct you. This isn't whataboutism. This is you taking the objective historical fact, and attempting to present it as something that wasn't as bad (as people are describing it to be). Somebody wasn't talking to you, you replied to them. This is normal and happens all the time. People then reply to you. This is also normal and happens all the time.

Replies don't suddenly get to be "whataboutism" just because you don't like them. Just because you were corrected. Geez.

 

[Zardnaar]

Funny how your factoids are relevant, but nobody elses' are.

Let's get this straight, eh?

Sophie replied to Joe Biggs, who made a claim about "imagining a paranoid society". She pointed out that that was exactly the experience of gay folk in the US, up until a certain date.

At this point, you decided to intervene by saying, and I quote: "And things got changed without directly murdering millions.".

This is when people decided to reply to you, to correct you. This isn't whataboutism. This is you taking the objective historical fact, and attempting to present it as something that wasn't as bad (as people are describing it to be). Somebody wasn't talking to you, you replied to them. This is normal and happens all the time. People then reply to you. This is also normal and happens all the time.

Replies don't suddenly get to be "whataboutism" just because you don't like them. Just because you were corrected. Geez.

No one's claiming capitalism is perfect, USA basically sucks.

It's the scale of the atrocities in communusm and the severitybof the violence.

US government didn't murder 15+ million people or if I want to use the worst example 1/3rd the population.

USA isn't a police state despite crap about defending the police, BLM etc. An actual police state China, North Korea, USSR, East Germany.

USA has a lot of flaws but you xan change it peacefully. Couldn't do that in various communist regimes without bring down the whole regime. Which what happened.

Same in NZ there's a built in mechanism for peaceful change and we lack a lot of things you love pointing to in USA. No gerrymandering, proportional voting and cops don't routinely carry guns.

Just have to convince enough people to support you.