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The British patting themselves on the back for abolishing slavery is as silly as it would be if I was celebrated for stealing your bike and then returning it like a decade later.
Incentives under communism?
- Thread starter Narz
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Zardnaar
Deity
Nuance much. Maori practiced slavery a practiced cannibalism. They were warrior society henerally with exceptions. Not unique in Polynesia so did Fiji and tribe in PNG.
Different time very different society.
More debunking your idea it's only capitalism that had slaves and everything is white peoples fault.
All the crappy stuff you keep blaming on capitalisms isn't unique to capitalisms and slavery specifically was raised in regards to incentives for the drudge work.
Communism as attempted also resorted to slavery well into the final decades of the 20th century en masse.
This was addressed earlier it's more the human condition or the bastard concept. We're really good at being bastards to each other regardless of the economic or political structure.
That doesn't fit your narrative though because your world view is constrained by the writings of a dead philosopher from almost 200 years ago.
I've been very consistent it woukd ve nice if we dud better but there's no one true way to do that imho.
You have tgat one true way which leaves zero interpretation of any other method.
We're just disagreeing with you on your one true way and pointing out some massive flaws in it that no amount of rhetoric can cover up.
And how to you apply that rhetoric in ways where you don't became a bastard yourself giving incentive to over throw your system.
Very easy to throw stones at a glass house a lot harder to build a newer better glass house.
Zardnaar
Deity
1 I'm not British.
2. I wasn't patting them on the back just pointing out they achieved some good things along with the bad.
For starters they provided sanctuary to Karl Marx to write his manifesto. As bad as it was by modern standards it was the liberal place to be by the standards of the time.
Modern liberals basically evolved out of humanist thought that developed in these oh so terrible place along with the institutes that a lot of posters have used eg Unversity. Alot of universities had links to the church for example.
That's what I'm pushing back on. You can have both things the Roman's for example were real engineers but their world was very brutal compared to ours. We're using an evolution of their writing to post here.
Zardnaar
Deity
Not really. You're the Communist you explain to me what it means.
My brother owns a nice house in the rich part of Auckland. Seize the means of production. He's a pilot explain that to me. He bought the house decades ago and spent that time renovating it.
Is he supposed to take his own plane? Who owns that plane after the revolution. Who dies in said revolution and who decides that?
Maori assets. They own tribal land and have trusts for more intangible assets. Compensation started in the 90s. Do you seize the means of production again and seize thise assets (again) or if you tried to implement communism here do you seize everyone else's. In the latter example the Maori are the new elite they kept their assets, if you strip them it colonialism 2.0.
You're the communist explain that for me either scenario.
How do you implement your vision (hypothetically) without becoming the bastard?
We communists believe all of Aotearoa should be returned to the Māori people. Your brother’s house and plane will belong to the state. He’ll still be allowed to use it. Unless the house is on stolen land. And if the plane is in an airport on stolen land. Then maybe he can ask the new government nicely for an easement or something.
Zardnaar
Deity
And you wonder why Communism isn't super popular.
How does 15% of the population jeep the other 85% in line then? After you've stolen everything.
Brothers house isn't on stolen land directly but its in the vicinity. My house and sisters house was essentially uninhabited.
Maori Settlements were further north and south along the coast. No Kai locally.
Your numbers are false. Half of those 85% at the very least are workers who will be happy to support the communist project, if not because they believe in it, just because they’re scared of being called racist. Therefore it’s 57.5% versus 32.5%. A clear advantage for the communists.
Zardnaar
Deity
NZ communust party gets a few hundred votes.
And 60% of those workers own property you stole off them.
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Nice to know commies are willing to just confiscate my property. In one breath say that I deserve the value of my labor and they’re not coming after my computer, car, and house, in another breath saying that you are willing to forcefully confiscate my property that I purchased with my own money from my own labor and have it returned to the Pequot, Mohegan, whatever tribe the Algonquian Peoples are in just because I live on and have property on “stolen land”.
Great incentive for communism
.Source? I don’t know about the people Zard works with or how much anti-communist campaigns have been run in New Zealand. I highly have doubts workers would be “happy to support the communist project” when it’s been demonstrated countless times how authoritarian it is in this very thread and sources outside of this site and by your own admission, confiscate their property and return it to the native indigenous population.
But Zard!!! It’s for the greater good!! /s
Zardnaar
Deity
Nice to know commies are willing to just confiscate my property. In one breath say that I deserve the value of my labor and they’re not coming after my computer, car, and house, in another breath saying that you are willing to forcefully confiscate my property that I purchased with my own money from my own labor and have it returned to the Pequot, Mohegan, whatever tribe the Algonquian Peoples are in just because I live on and have property on “stolen land”.
Great incentive for communism
Source? I don’t know about the people Zard works with or how much anti-communist campaigns have been run in New Zealand. I highly have doubts workers would be “happy to support the communist project” when it’s been demonstrated countless times how authoritarian it is in this very thread and sources outside of this site and by your own admission, confiscate their property and return it to the native indigenous population.
But Zard!!! It’s for the greater good!! /s
Getting tax raised here is hard enough.
The Maori party is about the closest thing here to Crezths suggestion. One idea they have is a 10% wealth tax. About 1-3% support them.
Lexicus
Deity
"What? No, I have a motorcycle now, I don't even care about your bike. Anyway, I called this press conference to congratulate myself for returning the bike."
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Isn't it nice that whenever I make a claim that addresses the actual OP of this thread (now 75 pages deep), someone comes out with an insane and deranged racist diatribe to completely set us about on their pet subject? And this has happened, oh, about five times by now? I love the welcoming discursive environment on CFC-OT.
I never said I'm not coming for your property.
They'll be 'effectively' yours, as they'll be owned by the State - cheer up, considering how much mortgaging is backed up by the U.S government via control of the banking system, it's more like a clarity of relationships!
Settler colonists have been remarkably poor landowners and stewards, interested generally in exploitation. After all, your lot has caused a dustbowl, drained aquifiers, built cities in the worst possible places, etc. Is not even in capitalist landownership the case to be made that a negligent owner has to have their property repossessed until they fix it up?
Your vision does not extend past your nose; you do not see past your house. You're more brainwashed than all of the supposedly slavish (ha!) North Koreans. So there isn't much incentive in your case, no.
I never said I'm not coming for your property.
They'll be 'effectively' yours, as they'll be owned by the State - cheer up, considering how much mortgaging is backed up by the U.S government via control of the banking system, it's more like a clarity of relationships!
Settler colonists have been remarkably poor landowners and stewards, interested generally in exploitation. After all, your lot has caused a dustbowl, drained aquifiers, built cities in the worst possible places, etc. Is not even in capitalist landownership the case to be made that a negligent owner has to have their property repossessed until they fix it up?
Great incentive for communism
Your vision does not extend past your nose; you do not see past your house. You're more brainwashed than all of the supposedly slavish (ha!) North Koreans. So there isn't much incentive in your case, no.
Lexicus
Deity
Not that I disagree, but the Soviet Union and China hardly improve on this bad environmental record. I don't know a whole lot about the issue in China but I think it can be safely said that the Soviet Union was absolutely unconcerned about the environment and considered a lot of pollution and environmental damage generally to be an acceptable cost of building socialism.
Zardnaar
Deity
Wouldn't single out communist as attempted. That's a human problem see fertile crescent.
Technology makes the problem worse (industrialization, combustion engine, consuming non renewables).
If we destroy our civilization the survivors will probably rever to pre industrial society so I don't see communism existing there. Somewhere between tribalism or neo Feudalism/monarchy.
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GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
You are referring to the Te Pāti Māori? I want to double check since I had to Google “The Māori Party” to get a Wikipedia article. From what I gather, they only have two seats in parliament as of the update of the article. Which led me doubts to Crezth’s claim that communists have an advantage over anti-communists in NZ.
I don’t get why the push for a wealth tax. The way I see it, it’s just a way on punishing people who accrue monetary wealth in their bank accounts.
Zardnaar
Deity
NZ has no capital gains or inheritance rax unlike most of the OECD.
They introduced a watered down one to prevent house flipping.
Some years property went up price by 20%.
You could buy a house for a million flip it a few years later pocket the difference tax free.
California prices income for similar to on of the Carolinas perhaps.
What's happening in America started here earlier it was a crisis 2016, peaked 2021 slowly went down a bit looks like it's picking up again.
At one oint an American McMansion was about half the price of NZ average house (700k usd at the time).
Combine with population growth double or triple the OECD average and 5 million people living on infrastructure for 4 million.
Naturally; your colonialist bourgeois democracy offers no real opportunities for liberation and will also not be able to save you either from the fascists or from the revolution.
No they don’t. Less than 10% of the population owns property of significance. Now some 64% of people in New Zealand do “own” homes through mortgages but really, the bank owns them and just has a hand in its very long term tenants’ pockets (also forces tenants to take all the risk).
Zardnaar
Deity
I'm open to wealth tax on those 10% to fund homes for the bottom 30%.
How it used to work not that long ago. NZ essentially had 0 homeless and 3 people unemployed.
Friends mother bought her house on welfare. Government used to give you the deposit and pay you to have kids.
Paid to have kids did return tbf.
Grew up on welfare food and housing wasn't a problem.
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