Info on Upcoming Patches from Jon Shafer

Please stop comparing Blizzard to the makers of Civ 5. Blizzard got rich by charging $15 a month to play the most dumbed down and shallow RPG ever made, something that appeals to over 10 million people. When the majority of these people are asked what they dislike about some of the deeper RPGs, such as Final Fantasy 7, their response is that the game is too complicated. I know. I've asked friends.

Furthermore, with the exception of World of Warcraft, balancing has never been something that Blizzard has had to worry about. I can't speak for Starcraft 2, never having played it, but Warcrafts 2 and 3 didn't need to be balanced. All factions behaved exactly the same way and received pretty much the same bonuses and penalties, with the only significant differences being the artwork and names of the buildings and units. The only other example of Blizzard and balancing comes from Diablo II, which was horribly balanced as far as classes go; if you were not a Necromancer, you did not survive multiplayer. As evidenced by the constant patching of World of Warcraft, Blizzard knows nothing about class balancing. To conclude my part about Blizzard, to a previous poster that talked about the Lich King not being available as an encounter with the release of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion... These are content patches and are very different from game-fixing patches. Blizzard only releases them when people get bored with current content--a few hundred MB of patch to keep 10 million people paying $15 a month while they finish Cataclysm? Firaxis will not release content patches (largely because of the mod community's existence), because you are not paying $15 a month to play the game, so they have no motivation to add content, other than expansions, which you will pay for. I also think it's ridiculous to imply that they released Civ 5 on schedule to avoid going bankrupt. Any game design company whose survival could be threatened by holding a game back a few months to fix it needs to seriously re-evaluate themselves.

On to Civ 5.

People aren't upset because the game has bugs and needs to be patched. Certainly, every game ever made has been released with bugs, since the days of Super Mario Bros. for NES when you could rack up 1000 lives by bouncing on a single turtle. Programmers simply cannot anticipate everything a player will try, and an attempt to would result in a game that either never gets released or is 10 million GB in size.

That being said about the bugs, that every game has them, is irrelevant, really. This concept of releasing almost-broken games and patching them later is becoming common place, and to be honest, it didn't happen before the days of everyone having a broadband internet connection. I've been playing games since I was 4 years old, so for 20 years, I've enjoyed video games, and 99% of the various games I've played were not broken, and their various components functioned more or less the way the designers intended. Super Mario Bros. was never patched, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was never patched, Final Fantasy 7 was never patched. I could go on with games that released in a near-final state that one could play through without running into ridiculous problems.

Even with that in mind, a few bugs and erroneous entries in the Civilopedia can be forgiven. What I cannot forgive is the insanely stupid A.I., the hideous User Interface, the fact that sometimes I have to drop a nuke on someone because a peace treaty has lasted 2,000 years, and that civilization leaders are notoriously schizophrenic and offer no explanation for their mood swings, nor can I handle being told that I need 8 out of 7 possible votes to win a diplomatic victory (I have a screenshot of this, by the way). I'm not going to continue going into details about the number of bugs and glitches in Civilization 5, there are plenty of threads on that.

My point in all this is that people aren't upset that there are a few bugs. People are upset that there are a LOT of bugs and many of them are major. These aren't little problems (such as sometimes I have to click a different unit at the end of a turn before "A Unit Needs Orders" will go away), a considerable number of them are close to game-breaking and should've been found by beta testers and fixed pre-release.
 
Please stop comparing Blizzard to the makers of Civ 5. Blizzard got rich by charging $15 a month to play the most dumbed down and shallow RPG ever made, something that appeals to over 10 million people. When the majority of these people are asked what they dislike about some of the deeper RPGs, such as Final Fantasy 7, their response is that the game is too complicated. I know. I've asked friends.

There's a clear distinction between an RPG and a MMORPG, how do you not know this?

NO ONE in their right mind would think they are the same genre and try to compare a game that is a strict RPG to one that is an MMORPG.

Also, despite being a good game, FF7 is not a deep RPG. It's a generic JRPG with a completely linear path. The only thing deep about it is, perhaps, the materia mechanic which is not made immediately clear via tutorials. The claim that you have friends which have dismissed actual RPGs in favor of an MMORPG because they are less deep is not only unbelievable, but also doesn't make any sense.

Are you even being serious? I can't even tell sometimes.

EDIT: Wow...

Furthermore, with the exception of World of Warcraft, balancing has never been something that Blizzard has had to worry about. I can't speak for Starcraft 2, never having played it, but Warcrafts 2 and 3 didn't need to be balanced. All factions behaved exactly the same way and received pretty much the same bonuses and penalties, with the only significant differences being the artwork and names of the buildings and units. The only other example of Blizzard and balancing comes from Diablo II, which was horribly balanced as far as classes go; if you were not a Necromancer, you did not survive multiplayer.

Do you know the difference between the old Warcraft games and the newer Starcraft/Starcraft 2 and World of Warcraft?

Online play. There is a dedicated and very competitive online component that NEEDS to balanced and tweaked constantly, ESPECIALLY after feature additions and changes. Also, the Diablo 2 Necro is a really powerful multiplayer.


Okay, I'm done replying to you, in my estimation you have almost no clue when it comes to video games, this is shown by this statement:

As evidenced by the constant patching of World of Warcraft, Blizzard knows nothing about class balancing.

There's a lot of criticism that can leveled against Blizzard, but the inability to balance properly is NOT one of them. You think it's easy to balance a game like WoW or Starcraft? Jesus... you are absolutely clueless...
 
Being a multiplayer RPG doesn't change the fact that it's an RPG.

Furthermore, if Blizzard can be compared to Firaxis, FF7 can be compared to WoW.

Rather than nitpicking over the first paragraph, you might read the whole post.

Seriously, please move on past the first paragraph. I said less complicated, not less deep. The two are similar, yes, but not identical. Having to worry about which characters to use, which equipment, and which materia in which slots is more difficult than anything World of Warcraft has to offer; I've played both and have extensive experience with both.

I didn't say there was no need for balance in World of Warcraft or Starcraft 2, either, did I? No. I said they were NOT balanced, at least as far as Wow goes. As I stated, I've not played SC2, and I did not mention it other than to say that I'd never played it. Please, troll on what I actually said rather than what you believe I said.
 
Furthermore, if Blizzard can be compared to Firaxis, FF7 can be compared to WoW.

Umm... what?

I can't even begin to understand the leaps of logic you have made to write that sentence out.

EDIT:
The two are similar, yes, but not identical. Having to worry about which characters to use, which equipment, and which materia in which slots is more difficult than anything World of Warcraft has to offer; I've played both and have extensive experience with both.

Hahahahaha...

Do you know what goes into the top guilds figuring out a new encounter without the help of guides (because there are none when they do it)?

You clearly don't have extensive experience. I'm out, you are actually beginning to give me a headache.
 
You don't seem to understand the difference between a beta product and a finished product. Finished products still have bugs, you know, but the amount and the general quality level is a lot different. The level of problems in Civ 5 is well-beyond what you'd expect from a finished product (and I am sure the weren't a whole list of issues with your wife's Sienna that she was able to list after only owning it for a few weeks -- and if it did, you would be rightly furious over it).

Yes, I do understand the difference between a beta product and a finished product. Nor was I trying to defend the quantity of or types of bugs in Civ 5. I was simply attempting to point out that the analogy being used to compare Civ 5 to a car was flawed, and was trying to do so in a reasonably entertaining manner. I apologize if my post implied any deeper meaning to you.
 
Being a multiplayer RPG doesn't change the fact that it's an RPG.

While there's no point in beating the "what is an RPG?" horse to death (yet again), I think the one very significant difference that most would point out is the influence of the player's decisions over the course of the story. In an MMO, that influence is negligible and all but nonexistent, given that the same "story" persists for all players all the time. In a single-player RPG, the course of the entire game can change in response to the player's actions.
 
Yes, I do understand the difference between a beta product and a finished product. Nor was I trying to defend the quantity of or types of bugs in Civ 5. I was simply attempting to point out that the analogy being used to compare Civ 5 to a car was flawed, and was trying to do so in a reasonably entertaining manner. I apologize if my post implied any deeper meaning to you.

A 1971 Ford Pinto is somewhat can be compared to Civ 5?
 
Being a multiplayer RPG doesn't change the fact that it's an RPG.

Furthermore, if Blizzard can be compared to Firaxis, FF7 can be compared to WoW.

Rather than nitpicking over the first paragraph, you might read the whole post.

Blizzard had the "we won't release it til it's ready" well before WoW came out. As I recall, they went so far as to outright cancel a game (Warcraft Adventures) because they didn't think it was good enough, and followed that up with the excellent Warcraft 3. They absolutely can be compared to Firaxis because they make similar strategy games and have consistently gone for quality. You can bash Blizzard all you want; they still make great games that are released in great shape.

Also, MMORPGS and RPGS are totally different breeds of games, but that's a side conversation at best.

And with your final point in your previous post, I actually agree with you for the most part. The sheer level of bugs and the intensely awful AI are what people are most angry about. We aren't beta testers, and while I know no game is perfect and there will be some issues along the way, the combo of massive bugs and poor developer choices is devastating. I don't understand how this game got released as it is currently.
 
Umm... what?



Do you know what goes into the top guilds figuring out a new encounter without the help of guides (because there are none when they do it)?

Yes, I'm sure it's hard to figure out not to stand in the fire.

But I'd also like to say that I didn't intend to bash Blizzard. I like Blizzard, and they make solid, fun games. I still have my wow account; 2 of them, actually, and I'm eagerly awaiting Cataclysm. But I'm not going to lie and say that all classes are equal just because I like Blizzard, and the Civ forum isn't the place to go into what's wrong with class balancing in WoW, but anyone who has played it and done any PVP will agree that all classes are not equal. Yes, they've released dozens of patches in attempts to balance the classes, but they have not succeeded yet. It is for that reason alone that I say they know nothing about class balancing, which is a bit extreme. I guess I should have said that they, "aren't very good at class balancing," to avoid some of the trolling. Attempting to balance classes is not the same as balancing classes, so one cannot use their failed attempts as proof that they know how to succeed...
 
While there's no point in beating the "what is an RPG?" horse to death (yet again), I think the one very significant difference that most would point out is the influence of the player's decisions over the course of the story. In an MMO, that influence is negligible and all but nonexistent, given that the same "story" persists for all players all the time. In a single-player RPG, the course of the entire game can change in response to the player's actions.

And still doesn't have much to do with "role playing" in the traditional sense AFAIAC. But that's a different matter I suppose . . .

;)

As far as the original topic goes, I can see the UI as being the first thing they work on, absolutely. It's probably the thing that's easiest and quickest to fix that will make the most difference. The hope is that they don't stop there, but making information more accessible would absolutely make the game better (for me at least).
 
Oblivion !

Oblivion was complete but had a hell of a lot of bugs. It still does if your not a PC player and can't use the unofficial patch. Still a great game.

Also although I won't get civ5 yet one of the best games I've played Battlefield Bad Co. 2 had plenty of minor bug and some serious game breakers. (M60). It was still a good game and now with most issues are fixed and the game balanced. Wait a few months it will be fixed.
 
As far as the original topic goes, I can see the UI as being the first thing they work on, absolutely. It's probably the thing that's easiest and quickest to fix that will make the most difference. The hope is that they don't stop there, but making information more accessible would absolutely make the game better (for me at least).

I agree that it'd help, but do you really think the UI is the biggest problem with Civ 5? I don't mind it as-is, really - I could use more info but I can make do. The AI - in combat especially - is the major factor that is keeping me from playing 5 right now. The lack of info in the UI might be an annoyance, but the lack of challenge from the idiotic AI makes the whole game pointless to me.
 
This has been by far the most interesting debate about Blizzard products I've had the pleasure to read 8 pages of so far. Thank you, everybody.

:deadhorse:

This coming out of Jon Shafer makes me cautiously more confident. At least, they didnt send a PR person to put us asleep for a while... which seem to me has a good news.

Eh... the whole things reeks of needing a drastic solution to the rising tide of discontent. I imagine they hoped the community would manage itself, and when they saw it steadily becoming worse, they knew that sending some PR flack (especially one that previously misled us) would just rile up everyone more.

But, the timing of it seem really odd. Its right after the Bioshock 2 "screw job" has flood the internet?? Coincidence??. PR moves?? Who knows. The post seems vague enough to fit the Bioshock broken promises: lets point out two or three things we didnt bother to finish and people caugh, tell them we're thinking about it, lets establish a vague timeframe for patching and let them dream some more.

Sorry about the rambling.. i know that this forum doesnt need anymore of it right now, but I have ABSOLUTLY no confidence in ANYTHING with the 2K stamp on it (Firaxis or not) and has long has its stay in the land of "promises" I wont be celebrating anything. Until it actually making my broken game look something like a Civ game... I dont even expect it to be a great game anymore... I will continue to warn has many people has I can about how bad it is.

Off topic, but what's the story with BioShock 2?

I visit a lot of other gaming websites, and I haven't heard anything about that. Admittedly, it may be because I wrote of BioShock 2 as an unnecessary sequel, but I'm having difficulty finding what you're talking about outside of the game having a lot of bugs. Is that basically it?
 
I agree that it'd help, but do you really think the UI is the biggest problem with Civ 5? I don't mind it as-is, really - I could use more info but I can make do. The AI - in combat especially - is the major factor that is keeping me from playing 5 right now. The lack of info in the UI might be an annoyance, but the lack of challenge from the idiotic AI makes the whole game pointless to me.


Oh, I agree that the AI is a bigger issue, but that must be much more difficult to solve. So no, it's not the biggest problem but it is A problem which also needs addressed.
 
Thanks for the information. My problem is that they "have a good platform." They should not have sold me a 50 dollar "platform." I am paying to play a game. I do not publish shotty work and then revise. I revise and then published. Last Civ game I buy
 
Undisputable Fact: There are games that are released ready to play, needing no patches or only minor patches.

Undisputable Fact: Civ V is not one of those games.

Undisputable Conclusion: Wake me up when the game is playable. I spent good money upgrading my computer to play this game, and now I will be moving on to other things.

Firaxis should have pushed back the release date, not gotten people's hopes up and then dashed them.

Amen brotha! Civ 5 shelved for now. Maybe they'll get it stable enough by 2011 for me to actually be able to finish a game.

I find Jon's comment's quite amusing. Reads like a typical developer's litany - all about new features, cool this, cool that - no mention of actually addressing stability (an utterly boring concept for most developers) and improving QA.

Looks like I'm going back to playing SC-II. At least with the Blizzard game, I can actually finish any game I start.

l8r)
 
Thanks for the information. My problem is that they "have a good platform." They should not have sold me a 50 dollar "platform." I am paying to play a game. I do not publish shotty work and then revise. I revise and then published. Last Civ game I buy

I think you're possibly reading way too much into the word "platform". Saying "we've built a solid foundation..." says nothing about the game they built on top of that, just that underneath there's a nice sturdy system. It's just a phrase - and a positive one at that, I mean no-one would admit to the opposite: "frankly, underneath everything, the code is flaky, unstable, and a nightmare to work with" :lol:
 
Off topic, but what's the story with BioShock 2?

I visit a lot of other gaming websites, and I haven't heard anything about that. Admittedly, it may be because I wrote of BioShock 2 as an unnecessary sequel, but I'm having difficulty finding what you're talking about outside of the game having a lot of bugs. Is that basically it?
No, it is because 2k decided to leave to kingdom come the patching of some issues that were suposedely to be fixed soon and decided to not port to the PC version the x-paks IIRC. Basically the 2k PR lied with all the tooths they had and even asked some borrowed :p
 
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